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This is clearly about BEVs, they are much harder for a local mechanic to “overhaul” when the key component, the battery, reaches the end of its life. I think i

This is clearly about BEVs, they are much harder for a local mechanic to “overhaul” when the key component, the battery, reaches the end of its life. I think its great that they are thinking ahead like this, it’s also good for the communities where Toyota have factories in the UK. There has been so much talk about how the lifetime of a BEV is much longer than a ICE, bringing them back to the factories for “re-manufacturing” helps to ensure jobs in communities that have been badly hurt by the automotive industry before. I suspect this is where the whole industry is going to go, the smaller local mechanics are sadly going to disappear but if we see the remanufacturing happening in the countries of use that’s at least a plus. The other thing this does though is further entrench the manufactures in the second hand market and tie yet more customers to their financing plans. EDIT: Wanted to add, that this also helps the manufacture keep control of the value in the battery’s which is probably the largest single const in a BEV. Remanufacturing the battery’s themselves will be massively important. It will be interesting to see how this effects British Car Auctions (the company) who have a near monopoly on the second hand market.

rjsw 5y ago
There is maybe also a market for "re-manufacturing" ICE cars as battery ones.
- samwillis 5y ago
  As much as that sounds like a nice idea ICE and BEV are so fundamentally different I think it’s incredibly unlikely. To properly take advantage of BEVs the drive chain is very different resulting in an incompatible mechanical structure. Also battery’s are very heavy (BEVs are significantly heavier than their ICE equivalents) which is why the battery’s are placed as low as possible. Retrofitting battery’s into ICE to make a BEV would result in a very bad and potentially dangerous weight distribution. That’s not to say there aren’t components from an ICE that can’t be reused if they haven’t reached the end of their useful life (much of the interior for example). However there is already a good scrap market for these and so I think it’s unlikely manufactures will do it themselves.
  - rjsw 5y ago
    There are plenty of recent TV programmes that show turning classic ICE cars into a BEV, typical range seems to be about 150 miles which would be fine for a lot of people. I'm just thinking that this could be done in a more systematic way instead of custom builds. The alternative is to completely replace every current car with a new BEV, I don't think this can be done quickly enough or at low enough cost for most people.
    - samwillis 5y ago
      Quite right, and there is definitely going to be a cottage industry of ICE to BEV conversions but I don’t see it as something that manufactures will want to get involved with due to the compromises needed.
  - jethro_tell 5y ago
    You can already buy a battery Ford 351 crate motor and it's a drop in replacement for an ICE, you gotta do the batteries and we need to replace the heater with something electric, little baby heat pump. Working on doing one now on a truck out at the family farm. I think this is going to be more common as we move away from ICE.
leoedin 5y ago
Generally in the UK cars get scrapped because they failed their MOT. Everything tested during an MOT (except emissions, which I've never seen fail) is also present on electric cars. It's basically checking brakes, suspension, lights and body rust. Maybe there'll be less mechanics, but I doubt they'll disappear because they can't do engine work. Engines are super reliable these days - it's the stuff around them which develops problems.
- samwillis 5y ago
  While I don’t disagree it’s also worth noting that for example the brakes on BEVs last significantly longer due to regenerative braking, up to 200k miles I believe. This is much longer than the “three year cycles” that the article is taking about. There is also no more oil changes or exhausts on a BEV. So yes, there will be local mechanics for things such as bodywork and tires, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see only 10-20% of the number of them in 20 years time.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Yes, but replacing rotors and brake pads is the work of minutes on most modern cars. Bodywork can easily make a car a write off, especially if exotic materials (aluminum, carbon, composites) are used.
  - dijonman2 5y ago
    Electrical is a huge problem, as complexity skyrockets we need mechanics to diagnose and repair. Mechanics will adapt, not disappear. Brakes are dead simple to replace and cheap to do so. Regenerative braking is insignificant in the scheme of refurbishing vehicles.
    - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
      Electrical is the one thing my local mechanic struggles with. My guess is if EV's really take hold he will be heading for early retirement.
the_biot 5y ago
Not to mention injecting themselves into the second-hand battery market, which I suspect is going to be huge.
chrisseaton 5y ago
> There has been so much talk about how the lifetime of a BEV is much longer than a ICE I haven't seen this talk - I think most cars get scrapped when the chassis rots, or the suspension goes, or the tech’s obsolete - not when the engine dies which is probably the last thing to go. So BEV should be no different?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mongol 5y ago
  Perhaps it is because many ICE car components degrade with approximately similar pace. If it were just the suspension that would give up, it would be worthwhile to repair if the remainder had many km left in them. But if you know that it is just a matter of time until another expensive repair, then you throw in the towel at the first one, perhaps.
  - Spooky23 5y ago
    It’s not an ICE issue. Emissions controls drove reliability. No such thing drives similar changes for other components. I drove a 2003 Honda Pilot 265k miles and get rid of it in 2019. It needed shocks, brakes and would have needed the exhaust system replaced soon due to rust. Just wasn’t worth the money. I sold it to a guy I know for $2000, he drove it until last year, removed the engine and transmission, and sold it.
- ansible 5y ago
  > ... not when the engine dies which is probably the last thing to go. The engine can be the last thing to go, if you are good about checking and changing your oil. If you let the oil run low, or let it sludge up, or don't promptly detect a cooling system leak [1], that will damage the bearings, and then it is only a matter of time before it dies. [1] Some engines can have the head gasket start to leak, which lets coolant into the combustion chamber (which is bad). Worse are the engine designs that integrate the water pump into the engine block. If the water pump leaks (which they often do, it drips coolant directly into the oil, which is super bad. An external water pump, in contrast, will just leak on the outside of the engine onto the ground. In either case, the coolant will run low, and eventually the engine will overheat. However, in the external pump case, you can just fix the leaky pump, and assuming you didn't try to run it overheated, you're fine. But with an internal water pump, by the time the coolant has run low, you've severely degraded the oil too, and likely damaged the bearings. In addition, replacing the internal pump usually means dropping the entire engine out of the vehicle, which is far more costly. Thus endeth my rant on water pumps.
alisonkisk 5y ago
beamatronic 5y ago
In the future everyone will be a battery mechanic. Just as dads in the 60’s and 70’s had a garage full of tools. But now they will have soldering stations and ammeters
- aronpye 5y ago
  I think you need more specialist equipment and training if you want to mess with high voltage electrical systems on BEVs.
- Johnythree 5y ago
  Not for the huge high-voltage batteries in electric cars though.
Zigurd 5y ago
You have it right but I do not think the battery is the reason. The battery, while heavy, is mechanically simple. Suspension bushings, springs, and shocks have a long life but, by the time the battery needs changing, are probably worn out. The wheels have been bashed enough to at least need straightening. The driver's seat padding and upholstery is probably shot. If it has a steel body it has dings and the corrosion protection and paint will need at least a touch up. The windshield is pitted. This means it's not just a job for the local mechanic. They don't do paint. The paint shop doesn't do upholstery. Wheel straightening is a speciality shop. The only place to do all this in one place is either a bespoke restoration shop, or a purpose built remanufacturing facility.
intricatedetail 5y ago
This is I don't get. Why smaller mechanics can't work on these?
markdown 5y ago
> BEVs What's this? You've used it multiple times as if we're supposed to know what it means.
- userbinator 5y ago
  Battery Electric Vehicle You can mostly figure it out from the context.

rjsw 5y ago

There is maybe also a market for "re-manufacturing" ICE cars as battery ones.

samwillis 5y ago
As much as that sounds like a nice idea ICE and BEV are so fundamentally different I think it’s incredibly unlikely. To properly take advantage of BEVs the drive chain is very different resulting in an incompatible mechanical structure. Also battery’s are very heavy (BEVs are significantly heavier than their ICE equivalents) which is why the battery’s are placed as low as possible. Retrofitting battery’s into ICE to make a BEV would result in a very bad and potentially dangerous weight distribution. That’s not to say there aren’t components from an ICE that can’t be reused if they haven’t reached the end of their useful life (much of the interior for example). However there is already a good scrap market for these and so I think it’s unlikely manufactures will do it themselves.
- rjsw 5y ago
  There are plenty of recent TV programmes that show turning classic ICE cars into a BEV, typical range seems to be about 150 miles which would be fine for a lot of people. I'm just thinking that this could be done in a more systematic way instead of custom builds. The alternative is to completely replace every current car with a new BEV, I don't think this can be done quickly enough or at low enough cost for most people.
  - samwillis 5y ago
    Quite right, and there is definitely going to be a cottage industry of ICE to BEV conversions but I don’t see it as something that manufactures will want to get involved with due to the compromises needed.
- jethro_tell 5y ago
  You can already buy a battery Ford 351 crate motor and it's a drop in replacement for an ICE, you gotta do the batteries and we need to replace the heater with something electric, little baby heat pump. Working on doing one now on a truck out at the family farm. I think this is going to be more common as we move away from ICE.

leoedin 5y ago

Generally in the UK cars get scrapped because they failed their MOT. Everything tested during an MOT (except emissions, which I've never seen fail) is also present on electric cars. It's basically checking brakes, suspension, lights and body rust. Maybe there'll be less mechanics, but I doubt they'll disappear because they can't do engine work. Engines are super reliable these days - it's the stuff around them which develops problems.

samwillis 5y ago
While I don’t disagree it’s also worth noting that for example the brakes on BEVs last significantly longer due to regenerative braking, up to 200k miles I believe. This is much longer than the “three year cycles” that the article is taking about. There is also no more oil changes or exhausts on a BEV. So yes, there will be local mechanics for things such as bodywork and tires, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see only 10-20% of the number of them in 20 years time.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Yes, but replacing rotors and brake pads is the work of minutes on most modern cars. Bodywork can easily make a car a write off, especially if exotic materials (aluminum, carbon, composites) are used.
- dijonman2 5y ago
  Electrical is a huge problem, as complexity skyrockets we need mechanics to diagnose and repair. Mechanics will adapt, not disappear. Brakes are dead simple to replace and cheap to do so. Regenerative braking is insignificant in the scheme of refurbishing vehicles.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    Electrical is the one thing my local mechanic struggles with. My guess is if EV's really take hold he will be heading for early retirement.

the_biot 5y ago

Not to mention injecting themselves into the second-hand battery market, which I suspect is going to be huge.

chrisseaton 5y ago

> There has been so much talk about how the lifetime of a BEV is much longer than a ICE I haven't seen this talk - I think most cars get scrapped when the chassis rots, or the suspension goes, or the tech’s obsolete - not when the engine dies which is probably the last thing to go. So BEV should be no different?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mongol 5y ago
Perhaps it is because many ICE car components degrade with approximately similar pace. If it were just the suspension that would give up, it would be worthwhile to repair if the remainder had many km left in them. But if you know that it is just a matter of time until another expensive repair, then you throw in the towel at the first one, perhaps.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  It’s not an ICE issue. Emissions controls drove reliability. No such thing drives similar changes for other components. I drove a 2003 Honda Pilot 265k miles and get rid of it in 2019. It needed shocks, brakes and would have needed the exhaust system replaced soon due to rust. Just wasn’t worth the money. I sold it to a guy I know for $2000, he drove it until last year, removed the engine and transmission, and sold it.
ansible 5y ago
> ... not when the engine dies which is probably the last thing to go. The engine can be the last thing to go, if you are good about checking and changing your oil. If you let the oil run low, or let it sludge up, or don't promptly detect a cooling system leak [1], that will damage the bearings, and then it is only a matter of time before it dies. [1] Some engines can have the head gasket start to leak, which lets coolant into the combustion chamber (which is bad). Worse are the engine designs that integrate the water pump into the engine block. If the water pump leaks (which they often do, it drips coolant directly into the oil, which is super bad. An external water pump, in contrast, will just leak on the outside of the engine onto the ground. In either case, the coolant will run low, and eventually the engine will overheat. However, in the external pump case, you can just fix the leaky pump, and assuming you didn't try to run it overheated, you're fine. But with an internal water pump, by the time the coolant has run low, you've severely degraded the oil too, and likely damaged the bearings. In addition, replacing the internal pump usually means dropping the entire engine out of the vehicle, which is far more costly. Thus endeth my rant on water pumps.

alisonkisk 5y ago

beamatronic 5y ago

In the future everyone will be a battery mechanic. Just as dads in the 60’s and 70’s had a garage full of tools. But now they will have soldering stations and ammeters

aronpye 5y ago
I think you need more specialist equipment and training if you want to mess with high voltage electrical systems on BEVs.
Johnythree 5y ago
Not for the huge high-voltage batteries in electric cars though.

Zigurd 5y ago

You have it right but I do not think the battery is the reason. The battery, while heavy, is mechanically simple. Suspension bushings, springs, and shocks have a long life but, by the time the battery needs changing, are probably worn out. The wheels have been bashed enough to at least need straightening. The driver's seat padding and upholstery is probably shot. If it has a steel body it has dings and the corrosion protection and paint will need at least a touch up. The windshield is pitted. This means it's not just a job for the local mechanic. They don't do paint. The paint shop doesn't do upholstery. Wheel straightening is a speciality shop. The only place to do all this in one place is either a bespoke restoration shop, or a purpose built remanufacturing facility.

intricatedetail 5y ago

This is I don't get. Why smaller mechanics can't work on these?

markdown 5y ago

> BEVs What's this? You've used it multiple times as if we're supposed to know what it means.

userbinator 5y ago
Battery Electric Vehicle You can mostly figure it out from the context.