19 ms·

Toyota to remanufacture cars up to three times in UK

233 points by clouddrover 5y ago

specialist 5y ago
A step towards selling mileage as a service. Eli Goldratt would be proud. Something like BMW's Car2Go is the logical endpoint. I'm curious why that effort seems stalled. Maybe Tesla's move into auto insurance is the better path. Financially. Free capital, like Buffett did with Geico.
zitterbewegung 5y ago
This almost reads like that chip shortages will actually continue to at least 2025 if not longer.
- whazor 5y ago
  What about potential (carbon) import taxes? If you reuse the frame and other parts in the car it saves you quite some money, plus there might be recycling subsidies. Also a battery only lasts 8 years while other parts of the car could easily last 30 years.
  - posguy 5y ago
    There are plenty of EVs on the road with batteries at 8 years old, some of which have seen minimal range degradation, like most Fiat 500e owners. For those cars that do suffer from range degradation (eg: 2011 Nissan Leafs), battery swapping has become common, and at a reasonable $3500 and up price point: https://evridesllc.com/battery-upgrade-service/ https://evridesllc.com/battery-upgrade-service/
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- intricatedetail 5y ago
  My friend company got estimate for crucial chips back in stock at spring 2027. They had to cancel many products.
samwillis 5y ago
This is clearly about BEVs, they are much harder for a local mechanic to “overhaul” when the key component, the battery, reaches the end of its life. I think its great that they are thinking ahead like this, it’s also good for the communities where Toyota have factories in the UK. There has been so much talk about how the lifetime of a BEV is much longer than a ICE, bringing them back to the factories for “re-manufacturing” helps to ensure jobs in communities that have been badly hurt by the automotive industry before. I suspect this is where the whole industry is going to go, the smaller local mechanics are sadly going to disappear but if we see the remanufacturing happening in the countries of use that’s at least a plus. The other thing this does though is further entrench the manufactures in the second hand market and tie yet more customers to their financing plans. EDIT: Wanted to add, that this also helps the manufacture keep control of the value in the battery’s which is probably the largest single const in a BEV. Remanufacturing the battery’s themselves will be massively important. It will be interesting to see how this effects British Car Auctions (the company) who have a near monopoly on the second hand market.
- rjsw 5y ago
  There is maybe also a market for "re-manufacturing" ICE cars as battery ones.
  - samwillis 5y ago
    As much as that sounds like a nice idea ICE and BEV are so fundamentally different I think it’s incredibly unlikely. To properly take advantage of BEVs the drive chain is very different resulting in an incompatible mechanical structure. Also battery’s are very heavy (BEVs are significantly heavier than their ICE equivalents) which is why the battery’s are placed as low as possible. Retrofitting battery’s into ICE to make a BEV would result in a very bad and potentially dangerous weight distribution. That’s not to say there aren’t components from an ICE that can’t be reused if they haven’t reached the end of their useful life (much of the interior for example). However there is already a good scrap market for these and so I think it’s unlikely manufactures will do it themselves.
    - 5y ago
yua_mikami 5y ago
Does this get around restrictions on new sales of more polluting vehicles (i.e. non-electric) after 2030?
- gambiting 5y ago
  No, how would it? They just sell the same car that's been refurbished - it's a second hand car, not a new one. The ban is on new vehicles only.
  - intricatedetail 5y ago
    That's how some companies were going around RoHS. Buying old or damaged stock and rebuilding and selling as "new".
    - gambiting 5y ago
      Well I don't think they can legally sell it as new. Land rover actually did something similar with the V8 Defender, they wanted to build one for the 50th anniversary of the defender but there was no chance a "new" defender model would have been been able to go through regulatory approval on that old chassis, so instead they bought hundreds(thousands?) of old second hand defenders off the market, restored them to factory condition and retrofitted them with a brand new V8 engine, gearbox and interior. But those were never sold as "new", your V5C document would always show it as originally registered as whatever the car used to be before the refurbishment.
heisenbit 5y ago
Cars are currently used beyond 10 years which is more than the 3 cycles talked about here. Almost reads like a scheme to cut of the long tail.
- bnt 5y ago
  More like keeping cars which are intended to be leased/rented in service longer.
  - magicalhippo 5y ago
    And make Toyota more money. At least here, these leased vehicles are sold as second-hand, and often sold once or twice again after that. This works fairly well, and most vehicles live a fairly long life. However Toyota only really makes money on the first sale. By taking the cars in and refurbishing them, Toyota can make money on the second and third sale. Good thing is this might make cars be around for longer, which can have environmental benefits. However one potential downside is that older cars are usually fundamentally less safe than newer cars, so it might be detrimental to Vision Zero[1]. I doubt the refurb would drastically change safety features like crash structures, number of airbags and similar. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero
    - Normal_gaussian 5y ago
      Toyota injects itself into second and third sales via helping their dealers do countrywide reselling and then offering finance products on it. I assume most manufacturers do similar. When you buy through this you get a Toyota warranty and guarantee, as well as a serviced vehicle and confidence around inspections/descriptions. The remanufacture stuff sounds a lot more like they reckon there is an ability to increase the quality of these resales - which is highly likely. BEVs want battery replace/refurbs but most second hand vehicles have a snag list that is too much of a hassle for dealers to handle, but isn’t that expensive. They are also then given upselling opportunity (towbar / reversing cam / etc.) which would add new margin (and many buyers want). Of course the main driver is that we are going to soon have large scale sticker shock - going from ICE to EV is £££, particularly for second/third owner. To lose market share and finance here in the next two decades is likely for any manufacturer, and market share is their main value prop for shareholders.
alfor 5y ago
They talk about ’reusing’ car up to 10 years! In Canada Toyota car are used for about 20 years without the manufacturer involvement. There is very few thing to ’fix’ of a less than 10y Toyota in a climate without salt on the road.
- Lio 5y ago
  We regularly salt our roads in winter in the UK even if it's not as cold as Canada.
  - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
    Wait until they make the eventual switch to liquid magnesium chloride. Amazing for roads and ice. Pretty awful for rust.
    - posguy 5y ago
      Here in Seattle the DOT is proud to salt the roads, in spite of the damage it causes to plants, cars and the dirty runoff it generates. Considering we didn't let a current mayor make it to the runoffs over his mishandling of snowmageddon a decade ago, I don't think SDOT will be considering modern salt alternatives anytime soon. It is kinda odd, in snowier rural Oregon they just used red rock cinders to deliver snow and ice traction effectively. But salt seems to be a lower effort solution? https://www.theurbanist.org/2019/02/06/seattles-salt-addiction/ https://www.theurbanist.org/2019/02/06/seattles-salt-addicti...
      - coryrc 5y ago
        Without a sufficient number of snow plows, they can't keep the snow on roads down to an acceptable amount, so just adding traction elements doesn't help. They never even plowed the almost-arterial near my house, let alone my actual road. At least with salt it will keep the snow softer and more likely to be pushed away by traffic.
        5y ago
avidphantasm 5y ago
Would love it if they offered a plug-in hybrid upgrade for my 2018 RAV4 Hybrid.
- throwaway4220 5y ago
  I’m interested to go down this route - I remember they had Prius plug in kits in the 2000s but they were third party
- sharpneli 5y ago
  Might be tricky, mostly due to how the transaxle works. Even if you find a space for the battery (the 2021 Rav4 PHEV has bit less ground clearance) the electrical motor of that generation might not be able to drive it on faster speeds without the ICE on. For normal city driving it might work just fine though, kinda like the old custom PHEV swaps for priuses.
11thEarlOfMar 5y ago
My read is that Toyota is trying to find a way to continue to make money from sales but without strictly producing new cars. Overall, if this program is not extending the useful life of their products, it's not a gain for the environment. Toyotas have positive resale value up to an average of 210,000 [0]. After that point the cost of maintaining them is (theoretically) greater than the resale value. It seems they are targeting a refresh about every 3 years, and doing that 2 times. The lifetime would then come in at about 10 years, which is right in the ballpark of 200,000 miles. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimhenry/2014/05/31/toyota-leads-top-10-longest-lasting-brands-says-mojo-motors/?sh=668216b68a9b https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimhenry/2014/05/31/toyota-lead...
- posguy 5y ago
  20k miles a year is significantly above average, most car insurers in the USA were quoting policies based on 1000 miles a month or 10k miles a year this year, same as when I last shopped around in 2018.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
nikkinana 5y ago
fnord77 5y ago
> In order to extend its contact time with customers “at least to 10 years”, Toyota will take vehicles back to the factory after their first use cycle (ie a typical lease contract) and refurbish them “to the best standard” to ensure the second user has as new a vehicle as possible. I don't understand this. They're saying they'll refurbish customer cars starting at 3 years. But modern cars are still look and run like new after 3 years. Also, a few years ago, the average age of a used car in the US was 9 years. Probably greater than that now. Without refurbishment.
- thaeli 5y ago
  They might mean "put new upholstery and interior plastics in" which, yeah, an off lease vehicle isn't going to be brand new inside. As someone who runs vehicles for 20+ years, while interior durability has improved, I still do find myself needing to do a midlife reupholstering.
anpago 5y ago
The demand in the EU and UK Cars for existing models which do not have speed limit restrictions will be healthy. From my understanding any Newly launched models from 6th of June 2022 have to be fitted with a speed limiter. Of course the other reasons due to a shortage of second hand models and new models manufactured recently help With ICE cars soon being banned from being sold in 2030 just eight years time. So a well renovated, tried, tested and trusted existing model will suffice for many users. While Toyota save on R&D. Live in the middle of nowhere or no charging point near your residence? Simply want a car which is not as "restricted"? Plenty of customers will have a refurbed non restricted ICE car, even if a 2021 model years later. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/content/news/mandatory-speed-limiters-on-uk-cars-from-2022 https://www.autotrader.co.uk/content/news/mandatory-speed-li...
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  >The demand in the EU and UK Cars for existing models which do not have speed limit restrictions will be healthy. Outside of the real enthusiasts I think most people won't care.
  - Tade0 5y ago
    I read the proposal. It argues for making the accelerator "heavier" when over the speed limit. For safety (and political) reasons the driver will have full control over the throttle at all times.
  - intricatedetail 5y ago
    They will care if they live in the 20mph zone.
    - srg0 5y ago
      I would be happy if no one could speed under my windows. Difference between 50 kmh and 30 kmh is equivalent to 50% noise reduction (~ -5 dB). And tyre noise becomes dominant just a little over 30 kmh (20 mph). https://workinggroupnoise.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/leafletlayout_v2_simplecover_final.pdf https://workinggroupnoise.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/leafle...
aronpye 5y ago
Environmentally probably a good idea. From a consumer rights point of view this is going to be bad. The cynical side of me thinks this is just a way to control the after-market and eliminate third party repair shops and mechanics. A better way would be to design their cars with right to repair in mind, that way the environment and the consumer benefits.
analog31 5y ago
Wow, sign me up. I already buy refurbished laptops and cellphones. A potential issue is dealing with rust and crash damage, but just combining good parts and scrapping bad would be better than scrapping the whole car. Or, the cars that can't be fully refurb'd, can just be cleaned up and sold as used cars like they are today. Give each car a grade, in a standardized fashion, and price accordingly. Also, let me order one by mail.
ezconnect 5y ago
Yes, the sellers dream of selling the same item three times and making profit three times.
tompccs 5y ago
Ironically something which makes this much less viable (unless the cars are exported after being refreshed) are the ever-shifting goalposts of EU emission standards. This is fundamentally what limits the usable life of a car in the UK - many cars end up on the second hand market not because they don't run anymore but because parking and congestion charge costs in certain cities (ie, London), make the marginal cost of buying a new car (which has better emissions ratings and therefore lower tax,etc) and selling the old one much lower.
- switch007 5y ago
  I think this is overstating the issue, given how relatively few places in the UK have low emissions zones tied to EU emission standards. Also, as we are no longer in the EU, I would take a guess that many of those EU emission standards are now UK standards. I'd take another wild guess that they are very similar in a lot of respects, and if so, going forward, you can now blame the UK government entirely, instead of the EU
- Johnythree 5y ago
  Surely these standards are not retrospective. I see lots of vintage cars still being routinely driven. eg Landrovers, Morris Minors, etc, etc.
golemotron 5y ago
Great way to charge new car prices for old cars. This will become normal.
nobodyandproud 5y ago
Where the improvement is no longer rapid, I’d prefer the longevity and repair model for things like phones, electronics, and cars. It keeps a pool of skill locally and of course done correctly it reduces unnecessary garbage. There’s a real temptation for companies to follow the Apple model, however, where the product is designed to be unserviceable; or the cost is prohibitively expensive.
manomanowicz 5y ago
Given the rapid improvements being made in electric power trains, this seems like a no brainer. Take for example a 1st generation Nissan leaf which is now being retrofitted with newer battery packs (with improved cell technology) [1]. Currently this is being done by third party companies but I imagine manufacturers are looking to capitalise on this as volumes of electric cars increase. They are definitely best placed to design and install such an upgrade. There has been a general rise in battery electric drive train retrofitting in classic cars from 60s and 70s so perhaps we could see Toyota refit 3 or 5 year old gasoline/hybrids with electric powertrains as consumer preferences or emissions regulations change. While Toyota have the car, they could also update a whole host of things to add value. Interiors and car technology seem to date horribly so getting the latest in car entertainment or driver assistance systems could be another potential revenue stream. Cars also undergo 'mid cycle refresh' so Toyota could do something as simple as bumper updates and swap out newer body parts. Generally the under body remains unchanged in a vehicle lifecycle so swapping out headlights and a bumper would be trivial. The car industry has for a while been in a existential crisis regarding projections of falling sales and lower revenues. First it was the rise of ride sharing removing the need for personal vehicles, next it was the autonomous driving and now it is electric vehicles with longer service lives and improved reliability. For auto manufacturers, they have been looking for other revenue streams. Recently it has been the growth in services - namely subscription services promising vehicle feature updates and access to 'connected' features. The re-maufacture of vehicles with improved battery packs and the electric drive trains along with other vehicle updates is just another area they could create new revenue streams. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4nS_tSQiVQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4nS_tSQiVQ
- dfee 5y ago
  Do you have more info about retrofitting classic cars with EV technology? This is a very neat concept, but I’ve not got the best Google-fu to break into this domain, it seems.
  - decryption 5y ago
    I don't know where you're located, but in Australia there's a handful of workshops that'll convert a classic car to electric. e.g: http://ev-torque.com.au/ http://ev-torque.com.au/ https://www.evmachina.com/ https://www.evmachina.com/ https://www.ozdiyelectricvehicles.com/ https://www.ozdiyelectricvehicles.com/ https://www.evclassic.com.au/ https://www.evclassic.com.au/
simonjgreen 5y ago
This is a pretty innovative idea, and would add good value to the second and third round owners of vehicles. I wonder if it would ease depreciation too, making vehicles bought on PCP more affordable, and therefore shifting the bias of sales more towards new. That would help achieve the target if getting ICE car volumes down.
traceroute66 5y ago
A little part of me can't help wondering if Brexit has a little something to do with this sudden push to UK-based remanufacturing. Reducing the need for EU-origin parts and the associated customs friction.

233 points by clouddrover 5y ago

A step towards selling mileage as a service. Eli Goldratt would be proud. Something like BMW's Car2Go is the logical endpoint. I'm curious why that effort seems stalled. Maybe Tesla's move into auto insurance is the better path. Financially. Free capital, like Buffett did with Geico.

zitterbewegung 5y ago

This almost reads like that chip shortages will actually continue to at least 2025 if not longer.

whazor 5y ago
What about potential (carbon) import taxes? If you reuse the frame and other parts in the car it saves you quite some money, plus there might be recycling subsidies. Also a battery only lasts 8 years while other parts of the car could easily last 30 years.
- posguy 5y ago
  There are plenty of EVs on the road with batteries at 8 years old, some of which have seen minimal range degradation, like most Fiat 500e owners. For those cars that do suffer from range degradation (eg: 2011 Nissan Leafs), battery swapping has become common, and at a reasonable $3500 and up price point: https://evridesllc.com/battery-upgrade-service/ https://evridesllc.com/battery-upgrade-service/
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
intricatedetail 5y ago
My friend company got estimate for crucial chips back in stock at spring 2027. They had to cancel many products.

samwillis 5y ago

This is clearly about BEVs, they are much harder for a local mechanic to “overhaul” when the key component, the battery, reaches the end of its life. I think its great that they are thinking ahead like this, it’s also good for the communities where Toyota have factories in the UK. There has been so much talk about how the lifetime of a BEV is much longer than a ICE, bringing them back to the factories for “re-manufacturing” helps to ensure jobs in communities that have been badly hurt by the automotive industry before. I suspect this is where the whole industry is going to go, the smaller local mechanics are sadly going to disappear but if we see the remanufacturing happening in the countries of use that’s at least a plus. The other thing this does though is further entrench the manufactures in the second hand market and tie yet more customers to their financing plans. EDIT: Wanted to add, that this also helps the manufacture keep control of the value in the battery’s which is probably the largest single const in a BEV. Remanufacturing the battery’s themselves will be massively important. It will be interesting to see how this effects British Car Auctions (the company) who have a near monopoly on the second hand market.

rjsw 5y ago
There is maybe also a market for "re-manufacturing" ICE cars as battery ones.
- samwillis 5y ago
  As much as that sounds like a nice idea ICE and BEV are so fundamentally different I think it’s incredibly unlikely. To properly take advantage of BEVs the drive chain is very different resulting in an incompatible mechanical structure. Also battery’s are very heavy (BEVs are significantly heavier than their ICE equivalents) which is why the battery’s are placed as low as possible. Retrofitting battery’s into ICE to make a BEV would result in a very bad and potentially dangerous weight distribution. That’s not to say there aren’t components from an ICE that can’t be reused if they haven’t reached the end of their useful life (much of the interior for example). However there is already a good scrap market for these and so I think it’s unlikely manufactures will do it themselves.
  - 5y ago

yua_mikami 5y ago

Does this get around restrictions on new sales of more polluting vehicles (i.e. non-electric) after 2030?

gambiting 5y ago
No, how would it? They just sell the same car that's been refurbished - it's a second hand car, not a new one. The ban is on new vehicles only.
- intricatedetail 5y ago
  That's how some companies were going around RoHS. Buying old or damaged stock and rebuilding and selling as "new".
  - gambiting 5y ago
    Well I don't think they can legally sell it as new. Land rover actually did something similar with the V8 Defender, they wanted to build one for the 50th anniversary of the defender but there was no chance a "new" defender model would have been been able to go through regulatory approval on that old chassis, so instead they bought hundreds(thousands?) of old second hand defenders off the market, restored them to factory condition and retrofitted them with a brand new V8 engine, gearbox and interior. But those were never sold as "new", your V5C document would always show it as originally registered as whatever the car used to be before the refurbishment.

heisenbit 5y ago

Cars are currently used beyond 10 years which is more than the 3 cycles talked about here. Almost reads like a scheme to cut of the long tail.

bnt 5y ago
More like keeping cars which are intended to be leased/rented in service longer.
- magicalhippo 5y ago
  And make Toyota more money. At least here, these leased vehicles are sold as second-hand, and often sold once or twice again after that. This works fairly well, and most vehicles live a fairly long life. However Toyota only really makes money on the first sale. By taking the cars in and refurbishing them, Toyota can make money on the second and third sale. Good thing is this might make cars be around for longer, which can have environmental benefits. However one potential downside is that older cars are usually fundamentally less safe than newer cars, so it might be detrimental to Vision Zero[1]. I doubt the refurb would drastically change safety features like crash structures, number of airbags and similar. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero
  - Normal_gaussian 5y ago
    Toyota injects itself into second and third sales via helping their dealers do countrywide reselling and then offering finance products on it. I assume most manufacturers do similar. When you buy through this you get a Toyota warranty and guarantee, as well as a serviced vehicle and confidence around inspections/descriptions. The remanufacture stuff sounds a lot more like they reckon there is an ability to increase the quality of these resales - which is highly likely. BEVs want battery replace/refurbs but most second hand vehicles have a snag list that is too much of a hassle for dealers to handle, but isn’t that expensive. They are also then given upselling opportunity (towbar / reversing cam / etc.) which would add new margin (and many buyers want). Of course the main driver is that we are going to soon have large scale sticker shock - going from ICE to EV is £££, particularly for second/third owner. To lose market share and finance here in the next two decades is likely for any manufacturer, and market share is their main value prop for shareholders.

alfor 5y ago

They talk about ’reusing’ car up to 10 years! In Canada Toyota car are used for about 20 years without the manufacturer involvement. There is very few thing to ’fix’ of a less than 10y Toyota in a climate without salt on the road.

Lio 5y ago
We regularly salt our roads in winter in the UK even if it's not as cold as Canada.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
  Wait until they make the eventual switch to liquid magnesium chloride. Amazing for roads and ice. Pretty awful for rust.
  - posguy 5y ago
    Here in Seattle the DOT is proud to salt the roads, in spite of the damage it causes to plants, cars and the dirty runoff it generates. Considering we didn't let a current mayor make it to the runoffs over his mishandling of snowmageddon a decade ago, I don't think SDOT will be considering modern salt alternatives anytime soon. It is kinda odd, in snowier rural Oregon they just used red rock cinders to deliver snow and ice traction effectively. But salt seems to be a lower effort solution? https://www.theurbanist.org/2019/02/06/seattles-salt-addiction/ https://www.theurbanist.org/2019/02/06/seattles-salt-addicti...
    - coryrc 5y ago
      Without a sufficient number of snow plows, they can't keep the snow on roads down to an acceptable amount, so just adding traction elements doesn't help. They never even plowed the almost-arterial near my house, let alone my actual road. At least with salt it will keep the snow softer and more likely to be pushed away by traffic.
      - 5y ago

avidphantasm 5y ago

Would love it if they offered a plug-in hybrid upgrade for my 2018 RAV4 Hybrid.

throwaway4220 5y ago
I’m interested to go down this route - I remember they had Prius plug in kits in the 2000s but they were third party
sharpneli 5y ago
Might be tricky, mostly due to how the transaxle works. Even if you find a space for the battery (the 2021 Rav4 PHEV has bit less ground clearance) the electrical motor of that generation might not be able to drive it on faster speeds without the ICE on. For normal city driving it might work just fine though, kinda like the old custom PHEV swaps for priuses.

11thEarlOfMar 5y ago

My read is that Toyota is trying to find a way to continue to make money from sales but without strictly producing new cars. Overall, if this program is not extending the useful life of their products, it's not a gain for the environment. Toyotas have positive resale value up to an average of 210,000 [0]. After that point the cost of maintaining them is (theoretically) greater than the resale value. It seems they are targeting a refresh about every 3 years, and doing that 2 times. The lifetime would then come in at about 10 years, which is right in the ballpark of 200,000 miles. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimhenry/2014/05/31/toyota-leads-top-10-longest-lasting-brands-says-mojo-motors/?sh=668216b68a9b https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimhenry/2014/05/31/toyota-lead...

posguy 5y ago
20k miles a year is significantly above average, most car insurers in the USA were quoting policies based on 1000 miles a month or 10k miles a year this year, same as when I last shopped around in 2018.
alisonkisk 5y ago

nikkinana 5y ago

fnord77 5y ago

> In order to extend its contact time with customers “at least to 10 years”, Toyota will take vehicles back to the factory after their first use cycle (ie a typical lease contract) and refurbish them “to the best standard” to ensure the second user has as new a vehicle as possible. I don't understand this. They're saying they'll refurbish customer cars starting at 3 years. But modern cars are still look and run like new after 3 years. Also, a few years ago, the average age of a used car in the US was 9 years. Probably greater than that now. Without refurbishment.

thaeli 5y ago
They might mean "put new upholstery and interior plastics in" which, yeah, an off lease vehicle isn't going to be brand new inside. As someone who runs vehicles for 20+ years, while interior durability has improved, I still do find myself needing to do a midlife reupholstering.

anpago 5y ago

The demand in the EU and UK Cars for existing models which do not have speed limit restrictions will be healthy. From my understanding any Newly launched models from 6th of June 2022 have to be fitted with a speed limiter. Of course the other reasons due to a shortage of second hand models and new models manufactured recently help With ICE cars soon being banned from being sold in 2030 just eight years time. So a well renovated, tried, tested and trusted existing model will suffice for many users. While Toyota save on R&D. Live in the middle of nowhere or no charging point near your residence? Simply want a car which is not as "restricted"? Plenty of customers will have a refurbed non restricted ICE car, even if a 2021 model years later. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/content/news/mandatory-speed-limiters-on-uk-cars-from-2022 https://www.autotrader.co.uk/content/news/mandatory-speed-li...

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
>The demand in the EU and UK Cars for existing models which do not have speed limit restrictions will be healthy. Outside of the real enthusiasts I think most people won't care.
- Tade0 5y ago
  I read the proposal. It argues for making the accelerator "heavier" when over the speed limit. For safety (and political) reasons the driver will have full control over the throttle at all times.
- intricatedetail 5y ago
  They will care if they live in the 20mph zone.
  - srg0 5y ago
    I would be happy if no one could speed under my windows. Difference between 50 kmh and 30 kmh is equivalent to 50% noise reduction (~ -5 dB). And tyre noise becomes dominant just a little over 30 kmh (20 mph). https://workinggroupnoise.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/leafletlayout_v2_simplecover_final.pdf https://workinggroupnoise.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/leafle...

aronpye 5y ago

Environmentally probably a good idea. From a consumer rights point of view this is going to be bad. The cynical side of me thinks this is just a way to control the after-market and eliminate third party repair shops and mechanics. A better way would be to design their cars with right to repair in mind, that way the environment and the consumer benefits.

analog31 5y ago

Wow, sign me up. I already buy refurbished laptops and cellphones. A potential issue is dealing with rust and crash damage, but just combining good parts and scrapping bad would be better than scrapping the whole car. Or, the cars that can't be fully refurb'd, can just be cleaned up and sold as used cars like they are today. Give each car a grade, in a standardized fashion, and price accordingly. Also, let me order one by mail.

ezconnect 5y ago

Yes, the sellers dream of selling the same item three times and making profit three times.

tompccs 5y ago

Ironically something which makes this much less viable (unless the cars are exported after being refreshed) are the ever-shifting goalposts of EU emission standards. This is fundamentally what limits the usable life of a car in the UK - many cars end up on the second hand market not because they don't run anymore but because parking and congestion charge costs in certain cities (ie, London), make the marginal cost of buying a new car (which has better emissions ratings and therefore lower tax,etc) and selling the old one much lower.

switch007 5y ago
I think this is overstating the issue, given how relatively few places in the UK have low emissions zones tied to EU emission standards. Also, as we are no longer in the EU, I would take a guess that many of those EU emission standards are now UK standards. I'd take another wild guess that they are very similar in a lot of respects, and if so, going forward, you can now blame the UK government entirely, instead of the EU
Johnythree 5y ago
Surely these standards are not retrospective. I see lots of vintage cars still being routinely driven. eg Landrovers, Morris Minors, etc, etc.

golemotron 5y ago

Great way to charge new car prices for old cars. This will become normal.

nobodyandproud 5y ago

Where the improvement is no longer rapid, I’d prefer the longevity and repair model for things like phones, electronics, and cars. It keeps a pool of skill locally and of course done correctly it reduces unnecessary garbage. There’s a real temptation for companies to follow the Apple model, however, where the product is designed to be unserviceable; or the cost is prohibitively expensive.

manomanowicz 5y ago

Given the rapid improvements being made in electric power trains, this seems like a no brainer. Take for example a 1st generation Nissan leaf which is now being retrofitted with newer battery packs (with improved cell technology) [1]. Currently this is being done by third party companies but I imagine manufacturers are looking to capitalise on this as volumes of electric cars increase. They are definitely best placed to design and install such an upgrade. There has been a general rise in battery electric drive train retrofitting in classic cars from 60s and 70s so perhaps we could see Toyota refit 3 or 5 year old gasoline/hybrids with electric powertrains as consumer preferences or emissions regulations change. While Toyota have the car, they could also update a whole host of things to add value. Interiors and car technology seem to date horribly so getting the latest in car entertainment or driver assistance systems could be another potential revenue stream. Cars also undergo 'mid cycle refresh' so Toyota could do something as simple as bumper updates and swap out newer body parts. Generally the under body remains unchanged in a vehicle lifecycle so swapping out headlights and a bumper would be trivial. The car industry has for a while been in a existential crisis regarding projections of falling sales and lower revenues. First it was the rise of ride sharing removing the need for personal vehicles, next it was the autonomous driving and now it is electric vehicles with longer service lives and improved reliability. For auto manufacturers, they have been looking for other revenue streams. Recently it has been the growth in services - namely subscription services promising vehicle feature updates and access to 'connected' features. The re-maufacture of vehicles with improved battery packs and the electric drive trains along with other vehicle updates is just another area they could create new revenue streams. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4nS_tSQiVQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4nS_tSQiVQ

dfee 5y ago
Do you have more info about retrofitting classic cars with EV technology? This is a very neat concept, but I’ve not got the best Google-fu to break into this domain, it seems.
- decryption 5y ago
  I don't know where you're located, but in Australia there's a handful of workshops that'll convert a classic car to electric. e.g: http://ev-torque.com.au/ http://ev-torque.com.au/ https://www.evmachina.com/ https://www.evmachina.com/ https://www.ozdiyelectricvehicles.com/ https://www.ozdiyelectricvehicles.com/ https://www.evclassic.com.au/ https://www.evclassic.com.au/

simonjgreen 5y ago

This is a pretty innovative idea, and would add good value to the second and third round owners of vehicles. I wonder if it would ease depreciation too, making vehicles bought on PCP more affordable, and therefore shifting the bias of sales more towards new. That would help achieve the target if getting ICE car volumes down.

traceroute66 5y ago

A little part of me can't help wondering if Brexit has a little something to do with this sudden push to UK-based remanufacturing. Reducing the need for EU-origin parts and the associated customs friction.