6 ms·

We do not break userspace (2012)

36 points by capableweb 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mnd999 5y ago
Can we get a (2012)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
choeger 5y ago
It's from 2012, btw.
kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
At first I thought "I am glad he is back to his old outspoken self", then I saw it is from 2012. (Don't actually now what he is like these days, just remember he did publicly repent some time ago).
- ragingrobot 5y ago
  I haven't been following lately, but last "outburst" I had noticed was two or three years ago. It was pretty mild compared to this, but used some harsh language - nothing at all profane, IIRC he still used terms like "idiot," "trash," and the like. People still had a fit, saying he'll never change.
trollied 5y ago
Submitted many times over the years. Only 1 thread with discussion though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4975715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4975715
scruffyherder 5y ago
I miss Linus.
- nomorecommas 5y ago
  Too bad about Linus. They don't make them like that anymore.
trollied 5y ago
The reply to Linus: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/87 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/87
- isoprophlex 5y ago
  Whoa, that's actually pretty classy. I myself could never maintain that level of cool in the face of an all caps yellfest. No matter how right or wrong either party is, it takes some serious levelheadedness to respond like that.
  - skywal_l 5y ago
    One of the first rule of written communication for me: never send an email when angry. You can write it as a sort of catharsis but then just delete it and wait a few minutes/hours/days to cool down. You will realize what is important. And for the guy being yelled at here, it was being the maintainer of one of the coolest project on earth. Just to be clear this is not a justification of Linus' behavior. I just believe that responding to inappropriate behavior with inappropriate behavior is a lose/lose proposition.
    - tailspin2019 5y ago
      > One of the first rule of written communication for me: never send an email when angry. Wise words! This is my philosophy as well (having learnt it the hard way).
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    Mauro is really nice. I worked briefly with him when I contributed a patch for the ZBar barcode reader. It was the best experience I had contributing to free and open source software. I'm really thankful for his work. https://github.com/mchehab/zbar/pull/64 https://github.com/mchehab/zbar/pull/64
hackandtrip 5y ago
I may be an average corporate backend dev, but if anyone I work with would react in this way after any kind of mistake I did, I would report the situation / leave immediately. Honest feedback is surely key to keep quality, innovation, and skills high - the thread has indeed a few lines of honest feedback (don't break user-space, wrong error) and the rest are just insults. I am pretty sure it goes against the Code of Conduct [1] 1: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-conduct.html https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu... EDIT: Just saw 2012, I guess CoC was not in place back then
- asguy 5y ago
  > I would report the situation / leave immediately. [...] I am pretty sure it goes against the Code of Conduct [1] Back in the early 90s, I was young and working for a startup. I had a fiery and seasoned boss, who knew what he was doing and had very little patience for bullshit. One day, I decided I knew better than him, and implemented a solution that was way outside the spec of what he had asked for. The next day, I came into the office, and he asked me what I had done. I gave him some snarky answer about coming up with a "better" solution. It turns out I had wasted a huge amount of people's time with my "solution" and it had become a giant pain in his ass. He screamed at me so intensely, that I swear I saw a new vein bulge out of his forehead. He then proceeded to kick a full-height metal filing cabinet so hard that he broke his foot. I went to the bathroom, collected myself, fixed the problem correctly, and we never spoke of it again. Would I have been better served with a PIP and a bunch of HR meetings to discuss my insubordination/personality problems? Probably not. In hindsight he did me a huge favor straightening me out. We're still friends to this day. Sure, the new world of kindler/gentler CoCs sounds nice, but sometimes it takes hard people (with thick skin) to get the job done. Sometimes people just need to be told to shut the fuck up.
  - midrus 5y ago
    Well, nowadays I know (because I worked for) so many SF companies with people that would create an scandal in HR just because the catered food had too much salt or there wasn't a vegan alternative. I can't even imagine anyone doing this nowadays
lesquivemeau 5y ago
(2012)
mnd999 5y ago
Not really sure why the submitter wants to bring up an unfortunate thread from ten years ago which nobody comes out of particularly well. Just let it be water under the bridge.
pictur 5y ago
i love this style. being able to honestly describe shit as shit is pretty good.
- ragingrobot 5y ago
  In one side of my mind, I agree with others that such behavior is unprofessional. Then I remember, this is pretty much his project, it may have grown in great leaps but it still started out as his personal project and he gave rules for working on it which were broken.
  - pictur 5y ago
    perhaps he could have said it in a more gentle tone. but sometimes being tough can be more instructive for the other person.
framecowbird 5y ago
Linus is such an asshole. It's not even cute or funny. He's just an ass.
- sva_ 5y ago
  The question is, if his attitude has had an impact on the longevity and success of his projects.
  - framecowbird 5y ago
    I think his attitude of quality and direct feedback is good and definitely contributed to the success of his projects. But even so, why can't we still call him out on his callous and offense delivery? There are better ways of saying what he said in his post. You don't have to be an asshole to be direct. You can still be respectful.
    - superinterwebs 5y ago
      no we don't, when some one is a cunt you have to call it
- xiphias2 5y ago
  Was. It's so easy to find bad examples of a past of a person whose whole life was documented in the open.
b3kart 5y ago
While might be necessary, doing such a dress down in public seems unnecessarily hostile and counterproductive, especially in the context of voluntary work. I know Linus is/was known to do this, but I never found it “cute”.
xarball 5y ago
This isn't really relevant to bring up in 2022. But this thread always brings a huge grin to my face. I'm probably one of the few that really likes watching the "Steve Jobs" level of product quality, just blast across the internet at all expenses. Because it helps me feel better about what passes for quality in a lot of my day to day. It brings me hope to see that level of passion over reliability. There's a time and place for that, but yeah, things happen. (Unfortunately I have to flag this post for relevance, because 10-year old threads are not exactly meeting the quality for content we want on HN!)
- rablackburn 5y ago
  You’re definitely not alone in enjoying seeing something like this. I would probably hate being on the receiving end personally, but I’m glad that this kind of sheer passion for quality exists in the world.
yosito 5y ago
> And fix your approach to kernel programming. At times I've admired Linus's tendency to not sugar coat things. Sometimes things need to be said bluntly. In this case, however, despite being correct, his message would have been stronger without all of the personal insults. While the maintainer submitted a patch that was clearly the wrong approach, it's a bit ironic that the one who needed to fix their approach to kernel programming was actually Linus. I can't imagine how awful it must have felt to be at the receiving end of feedback like that. I'm glad that there is now a Code of Conduct and that Linus has started to work on fixing his approach.
- happytoexplain 5y ago
  This isn't directed at you at all, but "don't sugar coat it" may be my least favorite phrase in English. I get the theory, but, personally speaking, I have nigh exclusively seen it used to excuse aggressive negative emotion, rather than to encourage direct and honest communication.
max002 5y ago
Linus is my god :) dont like it? Switch off all your servers :) and as anyone he has right to be pissed off from time to time. From what ive read its not first time. So youre nice 1 time, then 2nd time, then 3rd... And well then you loose your patience. Dont take it personally, just shut up and fix that shit xD
sys_64738 5y ago
I miss the old Linus hairdryer running at 1500 watts. It’s gone now we have the gentler, more cuddly Linus.
recursivedoubts 5y ago
Do you want nice things? Because this is how we get nice things. You may not like it. I certainly prefer a nicer mode of communication. But this is peak infrastructure maintenance. Compare and contrast: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29845724 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29845724
- pupppet 5y ago
  It’s absolutely possible to communicate someone has made a mistake without insulting them. Nice things don’t come from degradation.
  - recursivedoubts 5y ago
    correct they come from this level of passion for perfection
valand 5y ago
Linus definitely needed anger management. But, nevertheless, I don't know the full context. Linus might have repeatedly emphasize "We do not break userspace" to the point he is red-faced in this particular incident. Having a bad commit to a project you are responsible for, with a large number of users, is frustrating. Not to mention that Linux is not just a responsibility, but a life-work. What should he do instead of this? Block bad commit author from contributing to Linux forever? A programmer blaming the user for the programmer's mistake is not less callous of an action. Probably better or worse, because it is wrapped with courteous words, which imply that the programmer is right. What if this happens on a mission critical machine that deals with life-and-death situation? Whose head is gonna end up in the masses' pitchfork? I've been in both end, the incompetent contributor and the project owner who feels there is not enough competencies in the room. I'm sure there are many others who still have to deal with this dynamic. "We do not break userspace" may be old story, but the dynamic between is still relevant to this day and there is a lot to learn from the incident.

36 points by capableweb 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mnd999 5y ago

Can we get a (2012)

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

choeger 5y ago

It's from 2012, btw.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago

At first I thought "I am glad he is back to his old outspoken self", then I saw it is from 2012. (Don't actually now what he is like these days, just remember he did publicly repent some time ago).

ragingrobot 5y ago
I haven't been following lately, but last "outburst" I had noticed was two or three years ago. It was pretty mild compared to this, but used some harsh language - nothing at all profane, IIRC he still used terms like "idiot," "trash," and the like. People still had a fit, saying he'll never change.

trollied 5y ago

Submitted many times over the years. Only 1 thread with discussion though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4975715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4975715

scruffyherder 5y ago

I miss Linus.

nomorecommas 5y ago
Too bad about Linus. They don't make them like that anymore.

trollied 5y ago

The reply to Linus: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/87 https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/87

isoprophlex 5y ago
Whoa, that's actually pretty classy. I myself could never maintain that level of cool in the face of an all caps yellfest. No matter how right or wrong either party is, it takes some serious levelheadedness to respond like that.
- skywal_l 5y ago
  One of the first rule of written communication for me: never send an email when angry. You can write it as a sort of catharsis but then just delete it and wait a few minutes/hours/days to cool down. You will realize what is important. And for the guy being yelled at here, it was being the maintainer of one of the coolest project on earth. Just to be clear this is not a justification of Linus' behavior. I just believe that responding to inappropriate behavior with inappropriate behavior is a lose/lose proposition.
  - tailspin2019 5y ago
    > One of the first rule of written communication for me: never send an email when angry. Wise words! This is my philosophy as well (having learnt it the hard way).
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  Mauro is really nice. I worked briefly with him when I contributed a patch for the ZBar barcode reader. It was the best experience I had contributing to free and open source software. I'm really thankful for his work. https://github.com/mchehab/zbar/pull/64 https://github.com/mchehab/zbar/pull/64

hackandtrip 5y ago

I may be an average corporate backend dev, but if anyone I work with would react in this way after any kind of mistake I did, I would report the situation / leave immediately. Honest feedback is surely key to keep quality, innovation, and skills high - the thread has indeed a few lines of honest feedback (don't break user-space, wrong error) and the rest are just insults. I am pretty sure it goes against the Code of Conduct [1] 1: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-conduct.html https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu... EDIT: Just saw 2012, I guess CoC was not in place back then

asguy 5y ago
> I would report the situation / leave immediately. [...] I am pretty sure it goes against the Code of Conduct [1] Back in the early 90s, I was young and working for a startup. I had a fiery and seasoned boss, who knew what he was doing and had very little patience for bullshit. One day, I decided I knew better than him, and implemented a solution that was way outside the spec of what he had asked for. The next day, I came into the office, and he asked me what I had done. I gave him some snarky answer about coming up with a "better" solution. It turns out I had wasted a huge amount of people's time with my "solution" and it had become a giant pain in his ass. He screamed at me so intensely, that I swear I saw a new vein bulge out of his forehead. He then proceeded to kick a full-height metal filing cabinet so hard that he broke his foot. I went to the bathroom, collected myself, fixed the problem correctly, and we never spoke of it again. Would I have been better served with a PIP and a bunch of HR meetings to discuss my insubordination/personality problems? Probably not. In hindsight he did me a huge favor straightening me out. We're still friends to this day. Sure, the new world of kindler/gentler CoCs sounds nice, but sometimes it takes hard people (with thick skin) to get the job done. Sometimes people just need to be told to shut the fuck up.
- midrus 5y ago
  Well, nowadays I know (because I worked for) so many SF companies with people that would create an scandal in HR just because the catered food had too much salt or there wasn't a vegan alternative. I can't even imagine anyone doing this nowadays

lesquivemeau 5y ago

(2012)

mnd999 5y ago

Not really sure why the submitter wants to bring up an unfortunate thread from ten years ago which nobody comes out of particularly well. Just let it be water under the bridge.

pictur 5y ago

i love this style. being able to honestly describe shit as shit is pretty good.

ragingrobot 5y ago
In one side of my mind, I agree with others that such behavior is unprofessional. Then I remember, this is pretty much his project, it may have grown in great leaps but it still started out as his personal project and he gave rules for working on it which were broken.
- pictur 5y ago
  perhaps he could have said it in a more gentle tone. but sometimes being tough can be more instructive for the other person.

framecowbird 5y ago

Linus is such an asshole. It's not even cute or funny. He's just an ass.

sva_ 5y ago
The question is, if his attitude has had an impact on the longevity and success of his projects.
- framecowbird 5y ago
  I think his attitude of quality and direct feedback is good and definitely contributed to the success of his projects. But even so, why can't we still call him out on his callous and offense delivery? There are better ways of saying what he said in his post. You don't have to be an asshole to be direct. You can still be respectful.
  - superinterwebs 5y ago
    no we don't, when some one is a cunt you have to call it
xiphias2 5y ago
Was. It's so easy to find bad examples of a past of a person whose whole life was documented in the open.

b3kart 5y ago

While might be necessary, doing such a dress down in public seems unnecessarily hostile and counterproductive, especially in the context of voluntary work. I know Linus is/was known to do this, but I never found it “cute”.

xarball 5y ago

This isn't really relevant to bring up in 2022. But this thread always brings a huge grin to my face. I'm probably one of the few that really likes watching the "Steve Jobs" level of product quality, just blast across the internet at all expenses. Because it helps me feel better about what passes for quality in a lot of my day to day. It brings me hope to see that level of passion over reliability. There's a time and place for that, but yeah, things happen. (Unfortunately I have to flag this post for relevance, because 10-year old threads are not exactly meeting the quality for content we want on HN!)

rablackburn 5y ago
You’re definitely not alone in enjoying seeing something like this. I would probably hate being on the receiving end personally, but I’m glad that this kind of sheer passion for quality exists in the world.

yosito 5y ago

> And fix your approach to kernel programming. At times I've admired Linus's tendency to not sugar coat things. Sometimes things need to be said bluntly. In this case, however, despite being correct, his message would have been stronger without all of the personal insults. While the maintainer submitted a patch that was clearly the wrong approach, it's a bit ironic that the one who needed to fix their approach to kernel programming was actually Linus. I can't imagine how awful it must have felt to be at the receiving end of feedback like that. I'm glad that there is now a Code of Conduct and that Linus has started to work on fixing his approach.

happytoexplain 5y ago
This isn't directed at you at all, but "don't sugar coat it" may be my least favorite phrase in English. I get the theory, but, personally speaking, I have nigh exclusively seen it used to excuse aggressive negative emotion, rather than to encourage direct and honest communication.

max002 5y ago

Linus is my god :) dont like it? Switch off all your servers :) and as anyone he has right to be pissed off from time to time. From what ive read its not first time. So youre nice 1 time, then 2nd time, then 3rd... And well then you loose your patience. Dont take it personally, just shut up and fix that shit xD

sys_64738 5y ago

I miss the old Linus hairdryer running at 1500 watts. It’s gone now we have the gentler, more cuddly Linus.

recursivedoubts 5y ago

Do you want nice things? Because this is how we get nice things. You may not like it. I certainly prefer a nicer mode of communication. But this is peak infrastructure maintenance. Compare and contrast: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29845724 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29845724

pupppet 5y ago
It’s absolutely possible to communicate someone has made a mistake without insulting them. Nice things don’t come from degradation.
- recursivedoubts 5y ago
  correct they come from this level of passion for perfection

valand 5y ago

Linus definitely needed anger management. But, nevertheless, I don't know the full context. Linus might have repeatedly emphasize "We do not break userspace" to the point he is red-faced in this particular incident. Having a bad commit to a project you are responsible for, with a large number of users, is frustrating. Not to mention that Linux is not just a responsibility, but a life-work. What should he do instead of this? Block bad commit author from contributing to Linux forever? A programmer blaming the user for the programmer's mistake is not less callous of an action. Probably better or worse, because it is wrapped with courteous words, which imply that the programmer is right. What if this happens on a mission critical machine that deals with life-and-death situation? Whose head is gonna end up in the masses' pitchfork? I've been in both end, the incompetent contributor and the project owner who feels there is not enough competencies in the room. I'm sure there are many others who still have to deal with this dynamic. "We do not break userspace" may be old story, but the dynamic between is still relevant to this day and there is a lot to learn from the incident.