5 ms·

There's an outflow of people willing to produce value, and an inflow of people ready to consume it. It will work just great until suddenly there's not that many

There's an outflow of people willing to produce value, and an inflow of people ready to consume it. It will work just great until suddenly there's not that many value left to feed all the hungry mouths. And then the mouths will take pitchforks and go raid the nearby granary because that's where they think the food is. Only to find it empty because the people willing to actually produce food left long time ago. USSR has learned this lesson 100 years ago and paid dearly for it. I wish people could learn from the past mistakes rather than repeating them on their own...

scollet 5y ago
People inherently produce value though. You're going to have to get pretty specific because I can't imagine those people leaving are taking anything vital away from those who stayed.
mr_overalls 5y ago
The United States is still the only country in the developed world without a system of universal healthcare. Breathlessly comparing the USSR's economic policies with the raising of taxes to cover such a fundamental service betrays a staggering ignorance of economics and history.
- john_moscow 5y ago
  Oh, I happened to live on both sides of the globe and have a fairly sound explanation. Europeans (that have the only universal healthcare system of comparable quality) have a concept of doing your duty. It's when a tool manufacturer won't deliberately put shittier wiring to make the motor fail short after the warranty expires. It's when a dentist won't claim you have 3 extra holes and then keep pretend-drilling your teeth for 30 minutes and bill you for it. It's when an advisor will actually try to find a solution fitting you the most (as opposed to the one paying the highest commission). U.S. culture is different. Like it or not, it's about making a quick buck and hopefully not ending up in prison. That's great for startups and high-risk ventures, but it will never work with setups when you just assume people to do their job well and not try to stiff you in some way. Russian culture is very similar, so when USSR implemented centralized planning, people resorted to just stealing what they could. Like literally, your way to get some meat for the lunch would be to know the guy that works on a sausage factory, who would steal a piece for you in exchange for some vodka your cousin stole from the distillery. This eroded the trust between people to the point where you cannot start most types of business because your employees will randomly steal shit from you no matter how much you pay them. Hence, high petty crime. Hence, endless feuds between neighbors. You have no idea how low the ship can sink without people realizing that something is wrong. What always worked in the entrepreneurial cultures like the American one is set proper incentives. Simple, transparent rules that people would agree upon, and let them compete with each other. If you have 10 dental practices, and 2 of them charge you for the holes you don't have, the customers will move to the remaining 8. If a hospital starts charging unreasonable fees to feed extra levels of bureaucracy, a bunch of pissed off MDs will open a competing one. But we are not doing that. We have low interest rates that allow established players to scoop up competition with cheap debt. We have complex bureaucratic systems that make opening a new hospital without a 8-figure investment virtually impossible, and then we wonder why people's entrepreneurial energy gets directed towards creative billing rather than actually delivering value.
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
It's not clear if you consider the people willing to pay $N million for houses in various parts of the state "people willing to produce value" or "people ready to consume it". Perhaps you could enlighten us?
Kye 5y ago
Did you get your entire understanding of economics from an Ayn Rand novel? The idea that there are givers and takers is a nonsense understanding. Even billionaires provide a little value, though not much. I also don't see how the people providing the bulk of value, mostly in retail/service, could afford to leave with billionaires taking all the remuneration from the labor of others. Your analysis is complete bunk.
- mikestew 5y ago
  Did you get your entire understanding of economics from an Ayn Rand novel? That's what it was reminding me of. (The USSR comparison should have given it away, but I can be slow that way.) Complete with the farmers going all "John Galt". Of course, what Rand forgot was that there's not going to be pitchforks at the granary. Like, what, folks are just going to let that land lie fallow? Like there isn't going to be some other steel company glad to have the competition out of the way? (re: Atlas Shrugged) Some folks like to fantasize that the world will miss them when they take their ball and go home. Some will later discover that the world is cruelly indifferent to them.
  - qaq 5y ago
    You have to realize that there is decent amount of people who lived through the collapse of USSR on HN, so just because someone mentions USSR in the context that is upsetting to someone with left leanings does not mean that it's without merit.
    - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
      Yeah, USSR references betray one's age more than anything. When socialism comes up today, left-leaning people reference the Nordics, and right-leaning people reference Venezuela.
      - qaq 5y ago
        Aside from actual age I mean literally were born in USSR and lived through it's collapse.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> There's an outflow of people willing to produce value, and an inflow of people ready to consume it. Looking at California's continuously rising GDP, it is hard to believe that value producers are leaving to be replaced with leaches. More likely, conservatives have been leaving the state, but since they live in more rural areas anyways (i.e. the red parts of the state), it hasn't dented the state's GDP much. > It will work just great until suddenly there's not that many value left to feed all the hungry mouths. And then the mouths will take pitchforks and go raid the nearby granary because that's where they think the food is. Ah, is your statement more about immigration from Mexico to support California's huge agriculture industry? If that is the case, then I agree: ever since Trump cracked down on illegal immigration and then with COVID, it has been really hard on Californian farmers.
qaq 5y ago
So people buying 1-2mil+ houses in LA, SF OC etc are not value producers?

scollet 5y ago

People inherently produce value though. You're going to have to get pretty specific because I can't imagine those people leaving are taking anything vital away from those who stayed.

mr_overalls 5y ago

The United States is still the only country in the developed world without a system of universal healthcare. Breathlessly comparing the USSR's economic policies with the raising of taxes to cover such a fundamental service betrays a staggering ignorance of economics and history.

john_moscow 5y ago
Oh, I happened to live on both sides of the globe and have a fairly sound explanation. Europeans (that have the only universal healthcare system of comparable quality) have a concept of doing your duty. It's when a tool manufacturer won't deliberately put shittier wiring to make the motor fail short after the warranty expires. It's when a dentist won't claim you have 3 extra holes and then keep pretend-drilling your teeth for 30 minutes and bill you for it. It's when an advisor will actually try to find a solution fitting you the most (as opposed to the one paying the highest commission). U.S. culture is different. Like it or not, it's about making a quick buck and hopefully not ending up in prison. That's great for startups and high-risk ventures, but it will never work with setups when you just assume people to do their job well and not try to stiff you in some way. Russian culture is very similar, so when USSR implemented centralized planning, people resorted to just stealing what they could. Like literally, your way to get some meat for the lunch would be to know the guy that works on a sausage factory, who would steal a piece for you in exchange for some vodka your cousin stole from the distillery. This eroded the trust between people to the point where you cannot start most types of business because your employees will randomly steal shit from you no matter how much you pay them. Hence, high petty crime. Hence, endless feuds between neighbors. You have no idea how low the ship can sink without people realizing that something is wrong. What always worked in the entrepreneurial cultures like the American one is set proper incentives. Simple, transparent rules that people would agree upon, and let them compete with each other. If you have 10 dental practices, and 2 of them charge you for the holes you don't have, the customers will move to the remaining 8. If a hospital starts charging unreasonable fees to feed extra levels of bureaucracy, a bunch of pissed off MDs will open a competing one. But we are not doing that. We have low interest rates that allow established players to scoop up competition with cheap debt. We have complex bureaucratic systems that make opening a new hospital without a 8-figure investment virtually impossible, and then we wonder why people's entrepreneurial energy gets directed towards creative billing rather than actually delivering value.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago

It's not clear if you consider the people willing to pay $N million for houses in various parts of the state "people willing to produce value" or "people ready to consume it". Perhaps you could enlighten us?

Kye 5y ago

Did you get your entire understanding of economics from an Ayn Rand novel? The idea that there are givers and takers is a nonsense understanding. Even billionaires provide a little value, though not much. I also don't see how the people providing the bulk of value, mostly in retail/service, could afford to leave with billionaires taking all the remuneration from the labor of others. Your analysis is complete bunk.

mikestew 5y ago
Did you get your entire understanding of economics from an Ayn Rand novel? That's what it was reminding me of. (The USSR comparison should have given it away, but I can be slow that way.) Complete with the farmers going all "John Galt". Of course, what Rand forgot was that there's not going to be pitchforks at the granary. Like, what, folks are just going to let that land lie fallow? Like there isn't going to be some other steel company glad to have the competition out of the way? (re: Atlas Shrugged) Some folks like to fantasize that the world will miss them when they take their ball and go home. Some will later discover that the world is cruelly indifferent to them.
- qaq 5y ago
  You have to realize that there is decent amount of people who lived through the collapse of USSR on HN, so just because someone mentions USSR in the context that is upsetting to someone with left leanings does not mean that it's without merit.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
    Yeah, USSR references betray one's age more than anything. When socialism comes up today, left-leaning people reference the Nordics, and right-leaning people reference Venezuela.
    - qaq 5y ago
      Aside from actual age I mean literally were born in USSR and lived through it's collapse.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

> There's an outflow of people willing to produce value, and an inflow of people ready to consume it. Looking at California's continuously rising GDP, it is hard to believe that value producers are leaving to be replaced with leaches. More likely, conservatives have been leaving the state, but since they live in more rural areas anyways (i.e. the red parts of the state), it hasn't dented the state's GDP much. > It will work just great until suddenly there's not that many value left to feed all the hungry mouths. And then the mouths will take pitchforks and go raid the nearby granary because that's where they think the food is. Ah, is your statement more about immigration from Mexico to support California's huge agriculture industry? If that is the case, then I agree: ever since Trump cracked down on illegal immigration and then with COVID, it has been really hard on Californian farmers.

qaq 5y ago

So people buying 1-2mil+ houses in LA, SF OC etc are not value producers?