8 ms·

Learning that this website exists, and then finding detailed and accurate information in my record is what convinced me to start sharing my salary data with my

by jf 5y ago

Learning that this website exists, and then finding detailed and accurate information in my record is what convinced me to start sharing my salary data with my peers. As I see it, this database is a breach of an implicit social contract between me and the companies that I work for. Since my employers apparently have no issues sharing my salary with their peers, I see no reason not to do the same with my peers.

tdeck 5y ago
This kind of belies every company's excuse for not having comp transparency - that it's proprietary information they don't want competitors to know. Not only do they share these details on specific employees, they also provide percentile data to HR consultancies that use that to help set salary bands. Ever wonder when a company says they pay X% of market? They know that because everyone is sharing this info and they're doing it too.
- jonahbenton 5y ago
  No, it doesn't. Because comp transparency is within a company. And this is outside a company. Think about the venn diagram of participants.
  - tdeck 5y ago
    You're right, I wasn't clear in my parent post and have edited it. Basically the standard lime I've heard is that this is some kind of competitive trade secret / proprietary secret formula that they don't want other companies finding out. No one has once said "we'll tell everyone but our employees in order to keep labor costs down".
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jiveturkey 5y ago
I'm not sure how these go together. No problem sharing to your peers regardless of what your employer shares.
- reitzensteinm 5y ago
  It's implication logic. Employer sharing your data means you shouldn't think twice about doing the same. Employer not sharing your data does not necessarily imply you can't.
- neltnerb 5y ago
  Many people have an ethical sense that if something is understood to not be done to them they will not do it to others. It takes a while for people to learn that, with exceptions, companies have never heard of this rule. But it's understandable that people would still feel bad about doing stuff we've been taught all our lives isn't really a good way to be. Sure, a company isn't your friend, but that doesn't make "betraying trust" in response a nice feeling.
snambi 5y ago
If all employees share their salary information with each other, it becomes a headache for the employer. Each employee may quote the other person's salary demanding a raise. This is the reason behind the "keep your data confidential" idea.
- zorpner 5y ago
  Rare to hear such a direct, strong argument for a union on HN.
  - redanddead 5y ago
    Is it not always like this?
    - kelseyfrog 5y ago
      Not sure if you lurked much before creating an account. This is not my first account - I've been here since 2014. HN took a strong left turn a couple years ago. Before that it leaned more tech, and before that more founder/entrepreneurial. If I had to guess, it comes from this change in user distribution as HN is a decent way to keep a pulse on tech and IC's simply have more labor concerns. (this is a weakly held take. just spitballing)
      - luckydata 5y ago
        I think a lot of tech workers thought they were an elite of irreplaceable specialists that would never experience power imbalance. That's how my peers were thinking (out loud) about 10 years ago in San Francisco, and loudly opposing the mere idea we needed unions. They then started having kids, running into HR issues and all of a sudden everyone got a real harsh wake up call and understood what their real place in life is. The kind of "told you so" that doesn't feel particularly satisfying.
        ikiris 5y ago
        It’s still pretty bad. The majority sometimes seems to have a very naive libertarian slant but as people get older they generally wake up from that fantasy as they get screwed over in various ways.
Proven 5y ago
[dead]
geoduck14 5y ago
So.... how much do you make?
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  $200/hr as a full time ML consultant. Contracting is interesting. You make more, but there’s more downside. No sick days. Though the last 3 month contract was kind enough to calculate the start and end dates to be exactly 12 work weeks (60 work days, skipping holidays) which was a nice Jedi mind trick. I still don’t get paid for Christmas, but somehow it doesn’t feel like I’m losing a day since the end date was extended by a day to compensate. But of course that only makes sense if you don’t think too carefully about it. :) I dunno. It’s stressful but I like the freedom. But you live with a sword over your head; salaried employees don’t. Plus now my salary isn’t in a database somewhere since it’s not salary. blows raspberry
  - exdsq 5y ago
    Out of interest what’s your cv look like for that rate?
    - sillysaurusx 5y ago
      https://battle.shawwn.com/Shawn%20Presser's%20Resume.pdf https://battle.shawwn.com/Shawn%20Presser's%20Resume.pdf If it looks surprisingly dull, I hope it inspires you to realize you can get similar rates. I’m not particularly special; just determined, and willing to say no to low offers. (The initial offer was salary equal to half this rate plus stock. Being completely uninterested in stock is a tricky thing — you can offend your colleagues unless you’re especially tactful.) My cv hasn’t been updated since 2016, but it’s also the exact cv I used at this company. That should indicate how much cvs matter relative to forming personal connections with founders. The technique in this case was to ask an ML engineer on the JAX team what a hypothetical total comp package would be for this type of work at google. They said “making up numbers, but ~$400k.” So I refused any offers lower than that by pointing out that I could make this at Google rather than a high stress startup for half the pay plus stock. I hope some of that is useful to anyone.

by jf 5y ago

tdeck 5y ago

This kind of belies every company's excuse for not having comp transparency - that it's proprietary information they don't want competitors to know. Not only do they share these details on specific employees, they also provide percentile data to HR consultancies that use that to help set salary bands. Ever wonder when a company says they pay X% of market? They know that because everyone is sharing this info and they're doing it too.

jonahbenton 5y ago
No, it doesn't. Because comp transparency is within a company. And this is outside a company. Think about the venn diagram of participants.
- tdeck 5y ago
  You're right, I wasn't clear in my parent post and have edited it. Basically the standard lime I've heard is that this is some kind of competitive trade secret / proprietary secret formula that they don't want other companies finding out. No one has once said "we'll tell everyone but our employees in order to keep labor costs down".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

jiveturkey 5y ago

I'm not sure how these go together. No problem sharing to your peers regardless of what your employer shares.

reitzensteinm 5y ago
It's implication logic. Employer sharing your data means you shouldn't think twice about doing the same. Employer not sharing your data does not necessarily imply you can't.
neltnerb 5y ago
Many people have an ethical sense that if something is understood to not be done to them they will not do it to others. It takes a while for people to learn that, with exceptions, companies have never heard of this rule. But it's understandable that people would still feel bad about doing stuff we've been taught all our lives isn't really a good way to be. Sure, a company isn't your friend, but that doesn't make "betraying trust" in response a nice feeling.

snambi 5y ago

If all employees share their salary information with each other, it becomes a headache for the employer. Each employee may quote the other person's salary demanding a raise. This is the reason behind the "keep your data confidential" idea.

zorpner 5y ago
Rare to hear such a direct, strong argument for a union on HN.
- redanddead 5y ago
  Is it not always like this?
  - kelseyfrog 5y ago
    Not sure if you lurked much before creating an account. This is not my first account - I've been here since 2014. HN took a strong left turn a couple years ago. Before that it leaned more tech, and before that more founder/entrepreneurial. If I had to guess, it comes from this change in user distribution as HN is a decent way to keep a pulse on tech and IC's simply have more labor concerns. (this is a weakly held take. just spitballing)
    - luckydata 5y ago
      I think a lot of tech workers thought they were an elite of irreplaceable specialists that would never experience power imbalance. That's how my peers were thinking (out loud) about 10 years ago in San Francisco, and loudly opposing the mere idea we needed unions. They then started having kids, running into HR issues and all of a sudden everyone got a real harsh wake up call and understood what their real place in life is. The kind of "told you so" that doesn't feel particularly satisfying.
      - ikiris 5y ago
        It’s still pretty bad. The majority sometimes seems to have a very naive libertarian slant but as people get older they generally wake up from that fantasy as they get screwed over in various ways.

Proven 5y ago

[dead]

geoduck14 5y ago

So.... how much do you make?

sillysaurusx 5y ago
$200/hr as a full time ML consultant. Contracting is interesting. You make more, but there’s more downside. No sick days. Though the last 3 month contract was kind enough to calculate the start and end dates to be exactly 12 work weeks (60 work days, skipping holidays) which was a nice Jedi mind trick. I still don’t get paid for Christmas, but somehow it doesn’t feel like I’m losing a day since the end date was extended by a day to compensate. But of course that only makes sense if you don’t think too carefully about it. :) I dunno. It’s stressful but I like the freedom. But you live with a sword over your head; salaried employees don’t. Plus now my salary isn’t in a database somewhere since it’s not salary. blows raspberry
- exdsq 5y ago
  Out of interest what’s your cv look like for that rate?
  - sillysaurusx 5y ago
    https://battle.shawwn.com/Shawn%20Presser's%20Resume.pdf https://battle.shawwn.com/Shawn%20Presser's%20Resume.pdf If it looks surprisingly dull, I hope it inspires you to realize you can get similar rates. I’m not particularly special; just determined, and willing to say no to low offers. (The initial offer was salary equal to half this rate plus stock. Being completely uninterested in stock is a tricky thing — you can offend your colleagues unless you’re especially tactful.) My cv hasn’t been updated since 2016, but it’s also the exact cv I used at this company. That should indicate how much cvs matter relative to forming personal connections with founders. The technique in this case was to ask an ML engineer on the JAX team what a hypothetical total comp package would be for this type of work at google. They said “making up numbers, but ~$400k.” So I refused any offers lower than that by pointing out that I could make this at Google rather than a high stress startup for half the pay plus stock. I hope some of that is useful to anyone.