16 ms·

How to quit like a boss

156 points by stuhlmueller 5y ago

diek00 5y ago
This title needs an edit, like many of those noted, "How to Quit Like a Boss when you work for Rational People". Many places have toxic irrational people who would fire you in an instant and then have security escort you out of the office like a criminal.
sys_64738 5y ago
When you let your manager know you're unhappy then they can also quickly move to hire a replacement and fire you. You don't own a company anything beyond the last paycheck you received. Two weeks notice is the norm and, hey, it's just business. Don't take it personally if an employee leaves.
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  Your first sentence is true. Perhaps it's overly reductive of me, but if that's what your boss would do you're in that red "you should leave anyway" box, in my opinion. A few other commenters have pointed out good reasons (e.g. visas) where you need to keep your cards closer to your chest, but the vast majority of people reading Hacker News can find a role where it's not so transactional. Where you're valued as a person and teammate, and where you can have a grown-up conversation about your career plans. Those open conversations are harder to have if you truly believe your second sentence, however!
CapitalistCartr 5y ago
This is excellent advice for those working in a rational environment. For those working in an ego-driven environment, not so much. Plan your exit strategy as you would from an abusive spouse. Don't assume good faith on anyone else's part.
- chadcmulligan 5y ago
  Indeed, I was thinking where are these rational managers where you can discuss things openly. It seems the world of management is full of petty narcissistic control freaks.
  - jamesbrady 5y ago
    I'm sorry that's been your experience! These managers definitely do exist - I have had them, I have seen them, and I have tried to be one. Perhaps I should have included "rational conversation is possible" as a decision point in the flowchart, with a negative answer leading to "you should leave anyway"!
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    I'm far from perfect as a manager, but I've always worked to help employees working for me evaluate their career options inside and outside our company. I've had open conversations with my bosses about what my goals, skills, limits, etc. were. Many times, I've "saved" employees (from quitting) by helping them see a better path here than they expected was possible. Other times, I've said "holy crap, that sounds amazing and, even though I really value having you work here, I have to advise you that I'd make the jump if I was in your shoes." I've told my boss when (and why) I was interviewing for other roles. I've also told them when I've been totally satisfied and not intending to look for a while. I could work for a boss that I couldn't trust with that data, but I much prefer working for one that I can and I try to be the one that my directs can trust with it.
  - vanusa 5y ago
    It seems the world of management is full of petty narcissistic control freaks. It can sure seem that way -- and no doubt is that way, in certain situations. More often I find they're simply ... scared. Of how they'll be evaluated, or what will happen if they make a mistake (or heavens, let someone below them make a mistake). Or of simply being "found out" (that they're not nearly as experienced or as sage in their advice as others have made them out to be).
    - deleted 5y ago
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- mds 5y ago
  In a rational environment if you're leaving "for cause", it shouldn't come as a shock to your employer when you quit, in the same way a bad performance review or firing shouldn't come as a shock to the employee. There should be feedback in both directions, if they're not meeting your career goals or you're not meeting their performance goals. But as a rule I wouldn't tell my boss I'm actively interviewing until I have an offer in hand. Just like, and for a lot of the same reasons, the company as a rule isn't going to inform under-performing employees that they're actively looking to hire someone to replace them before firing them.
- lmilcin 5y ago
  I worked in many places including ego-driven, political and/or irrational. Leaving gracefully has never backfired on me. Actually, the opposite happened. Leaving gracefully has left me with some good friends and has led me to opportunities from people I worked with in the past and have became successful in the meantime. Additionally, at almost every company I happen to work with somebody that I have known before. Answer yourself, do you really want your ungraceful exit to become a problem at your new company now or in the future? What does it cost you to leave gracefully?
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    I still strongly suggest you get everything in order (employment offer accepted) before sharing you are on a job search. Companies will start planning without you and you may not land the perfect job for months. Would a company share they are posting a job to replace you and then ask you to train that person before they actually do? Graceful is 2/3 weeks notice of handing off projects.
    - lmilcin 5y ago
      Well, you should have offer before you put your notice. I usually wait until I have the new contract signed. But the notice should not be a surprise to anybody. I tell my boss that I am actively searching, don't yet have an offer or a concrete date. I also tell him not to worry and reassure I will try to give him as much notice as possible and will cooperate to close whatever projects we can close and do necessary transfers gracefully. This lets him plan some things like grooming my replacement or put more emphasis on closing projects rather than starting new ones. Which is additional benefit for me because there aren't many things worse for me than working on a project that I know I will never be able to finish. Also here in Poland notice period is 1 month minimum. Since it is calendar month it can even be almost two months. But I also work as tech lead which means there is way more projects I am involved in and way more technical stuff to pass. I try as much as I can not to be a bus factor 1 employee but somehow there is always a bunch of things that people realise would like to get done before I leave because they know otherwise they will have to wait forever for them.
- 300bps 5y ago
  I don’t think it’s good advice even for someone working in a rational environment. The part about giving ten months notice is terrible. He even says that it was bad for both sides! He was mentally checked out for months and not coming up with long term solutions because he knew he was out of there. Not my supposition - he literally says that. My past three jobs have all lasted at least a decade. I just don’t agree with much if any of the advice here other than the blatantly obvious things like “don’t sabotage them” lol.
  - jamesbrady 5y ago
    I think we might have crossed wires here… The section you're referring to is titled "Avoid giving too much notice " and basically gives five reasons for why 10 months was a harmfully-long notice period. The advice is to give much less notice than that.
    - 300bps 5y ago
      I think you may have missed the part in my original comment where I said He even says that it was bad for both sides!. Respectfully, my point was that the way the author (you?) left that company reads like it was a train wreck. To a level that I wouldn't look to the author for any advice on how to leave a company. And what was the advice? Don't sabotage the company and don't give 10 months notice? If ten thousand people quit a job, how many would even imagine doing either of those things?
      - jamesbrady 5y ago
        Thankfully, it wasn't a train wreck! But yes, there were certainly some things I would have done differently. For me, I tend to learn more from my or someone else's mistakes than from when something went swimmingly – the post is an attempt to capture some of those. Your last paragraph strawmans me… but yes, two of my points are related to what you mention. Don't sabotage your team and don't give too much notice – I've seen several people do one or the other of these.
    - bigmattystyles 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
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yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
Eh... kind of? Like, I don't disagree that there are reasonable points here, but: > Quitting should never be a surprise for your boss > What’s the worst that can happen? Not a total surprise, but in many environments even hinting that you're looking to leave will... greatly increase the urgency of your search. They might not terminate you outright (or they may), but it's gonna make the rest of your time there a lot less fun. The worst that can happen is that you admit you're thinking about leaving and get escorted out by security. Obviously it depends exactly what we mean by not being a surprise; problems should generally be communicated... perhaps it would be better to say "Your boss should be able to say why you left"? > Match your notice period to the handover period I personally think the handover part is a symptom; at least for the kind of work I do, if there was truly that much to hand over something already failed. Process goes in wiki, tasks go in Jira, code goes in version control... sure, there will always be a few things that only you really understood and some in-flight work that's not fully written down in a ticket, but IMO if it takes you even 2 full weeks to exit gracefully then either you messed up or the company messed up (ex. there was no other person to hand off to and they couldn't hire that fast).
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  Hmm, I hear you on the first point… Perhaps I'm blinkered to roles in tech (to which this post was aimed, but not explicitly enough)? In my experience at such companies, people certainly aren't walked if they express dissatisfaction in their role – but you're right that this doesn't necessarily transfer onto roles which are less competitive. I will think about how to tighten that piece up: thanks for the feedback. On the second point, I can only congratulate you if you manage to keep everything so organised and compartmentalised! It's something I've aspired to but always fallen short of.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    Right, unless the job/manager are totally insane they should never be surprised that you are to some degree dissatisfied. But in many jobs, it is to the employee's benefit to operate in such a way that the manager is surprised that they're actually leaving.
ragnot 5y ago
Honestly, it's really simple: two weeks and that's it. Been there 2 years and haven't gotten a raise/promotion? 2 weeks. Been there 10 years and are bored/didn't get what you want? 2 weeks. Don't fall over yourself helping the company. Chances are they are going to forget you in 3 months anyway.
- sasawpg 5y ago
  In case of your death, a replacement job posting will be up before your obituary. 10 months is crazy.
  - seaman1921 5y ago
    Well of course an opening will be posted immediately if one dies - whats the point of waiting in that scenario ? That doesn't justify being a jerk and quitting without making an effort to ensure that the transition is smooth for your colleagues.
- blagie 5y ago
  Bad advice. I hate generalities. Last time I left a firm, there was 12 months notice (and the decision was mutual). That was the right choice for both sides. The organization I'm working at right now, it's not uncommon to give years of notice, mostly heading for retirement. Most tech companies are definitely two weeks, but that's far from the universe.
  - paulcole 5y ago
    Something being “not uncommon” at your organization doesn’t make it good advice for anyone else. Unless there’s a contract or an extreme circumstance that demands otherwise, 2 weeks is a courtesy and an employer should be ready for 0 days notice.
    - blagie 5y ago
      That's very... transactional. I prefer organizations with cultures which are more relational. I spent a lot of time at work. I'd like work to be a community, for my work to be meaningful and interesting, and on the whole, that's more important than making a half a megabuck a year optimizing ad clicks. I have a job like that, and it doesn't pay as much as FAANG, but you know something: it pays enough, and I'm happy. I find the whole modern/California transactional culture is toxic to my psychological well-being, from divorce/relationship-hopping culture to job hopping culture to everything else. The whole world doesn't work like that, fortunately. Please don't try to force it to. (And conversely, I'm fine with the transactional culture existing, so long as I'm not in it)
paxys 5y ago
I don't get this advice. At least in tech it is understood that everyone has their eye open for the next big opportunity. If one comes along, I'm not going to hesitate to take it. It doesn't have to mean that there's a problem in my current role that I need to address with my manager. Sometimes you simply know that it is time to leave and try something new. If my current company is "surprised" by my decision and unprepared for my absence then that's on them.
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  > it is understood that everyone has their eye open for the next big opportunity This hasn't been my approach, nor has it been for many people I've worked with – or perhaps we're tripping over language? Let's say that someone is super motivated by a high salary. They would be helping their manager (and, in most situations, themselves) if they were open about that. Up to and including conversations like "I hear that Company X is paying 20% more for a comparable role – here's some data to show I'm underpaid". It's those kinds of conversations which would mean that your manager won't be surprised if in 6 months you leave for a better-paying role. Or, perhaps you get a nice pay rise. Or, if you can't have such conversations, see the red "you should leave anyway" box in the post!
  - Den-vr 5y ago
    I especially agree on the approach regarding pay. Contrast that with "I have an offer from Company X that is 20% more, can you match it?" In the former case, you can be seen as expressing a sort of loyalty, in the latter case you live with a little extra workplace hostility even if your current employer agreed to match the offer. In that sense, when it's time to go it's best to go.
  - marbletimes 5y ago
    But if you know that the current company cannot pay like the other company you are interviewing for, or that in this new company the future salary outlook is much better, why bother asking if they can pay you more? In the work life, one needs to be strategic; it appears to me that most people on here who are commenting somewhat negatively about people giving 2-week notice and nothing else have never been laid off or fired or somewhat "mistreated" by a company. The way to be an excellent employee is to always deliver work to the best of one's capabilities and give 2-week notice before leaving. In one company I worked for, somebody gave a 2-week notice and was let go immediately. It is not unheard of, and most legacy companies could not care less about a possible PR problem. Those legacy companies live in a galaxy that is far away from the one inhabited by start-ups and similar good PR-dependent companies, they are populated mostly by old dinosaurs that recruit heavily among the not-too-brilliant technical people.
ubermonkey 5y ago
That's an insanely pollyanna take on quitting. What's the worst that could happen? You could get fired for looking for another job. This happens. Most people I know have worked for someone toxic, or worked for a toxic organization. If you work for nice people and things just don't align, yeah, sure, this approach may be fine, but it's by no means universal.
- hinkley 5y ago
  I have never had this happen to me but I'm always prepared to walk out the door the same day I hand in my 2 week's. Any personal effects that I'm not using regularly have already snuck home with me during the previous week or two. Documentation I've been meaning to write has at least been attempted to be cleaned up.
- simplestats 5y ago
  I think the assumption is getting fired instantly from a toxic organization is probably a good thing. The problem is that a high likelihood of a better outcome (as opposed to ending up living in your car), still isn't a guarantee. The most risk-averse strategy should still use some of the advice posted here, but concerns like minimizing other people's problems and your own guilt are not worth the dangers.
  - jamesbrady 5y ago
    > the assumption is getting fired instantly from a toxic organization is probably a good thing That's correct – although I definitely take on board some of the other commenters' feedback about things like visas tied to roles. I'm going to add some clarification to make it clear this really relates to employees in good standing in tech companies (obviously a tiny minority of the populace and one of the few groups who have the guarantee you mention).
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    The article's comment to that "But if you have a crap manager it’s better to find that out clearly, and early" is, frankly, ridiculous - discussing your potential quitting is not the way how one would "find out early" that they have a crap manager - presumably they would already know very well at that point, and this would likely be a big part of why they're quitting.
cosmotic 5y ago
Heeding this advice would be much more generous than employers typically are, especially in an at-will employment environment. In my experience, employers give zero notice and provide zero assistance helping an employee find a replacement.
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  I think it depends on the situation. I definitely agree that performance-based firings would tend to be extremely brutal compared to the approach I advocate for here (largely due to the various risks posed by aggrieved employees). Perhaps I should add that this advice best (only?) applies if you're leaving a company in a sort of "natural parting of ways" kind of situation? Thanks for the feedback.
  - cosmotic 5y ago
    No only performance-based firings, but throw-someone-else-under-the-bus firings and bad-management firings. Also cost-cutting layoffs or outsourcing-layoffs. Regardless of the cause, an employer almost-always will require a separation agreement be signed as a requisite action for any amount of severance pay. This is entirely to the benefit of the employer.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      If it’s entirely to the benefit of the employer, why would anyone sign them? Both sides get something from the agreement. Employer gets certainty. Employee gets certainty and some money.
ram_rar 5y ago
> Quitting should never be a surprise for your boss I get the spirit of this. But someone whos in tech on a visa, this is absolutely the worse advice. The fear or retaliation is real, especially in bigger firms where your manager has a lot of say. The moment higher ups have the slightest inkling that you're looking for other jobs, you'll soon get pushed out.
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  Oh, I hadn't considered role-tied visas… that's a good point. Let me add a couple of "excepts" in there. "Never" is too absolute.
  - wahnfrieden 5y ago
    Please do your research on workplace retaliation
- hodgesrm 5y ago
  I know of a case where the manager actually called the INS after the employee left. Protect yourself and your family first. (I'm a manager myself.)
  - ram_rar 5y ago
    INS?
    - icedchai 5y ago
      Immigration. When you're in the US on a Visa (maybe not all of them?), you need to have a job or you risk getting deported.
      - ram_rar 5y ago
        Thats weird, you still get ~ 60 days to find a new job. In case you dont have any lined up.
NikolaNovak 5y ago
I think the very first sentiment is the most universal one: Your quitting should not be a surprise to your manager. Just like year-end review (for those companies that have it) should not be a surprise to the employee - feedback should be continuous. Similarly, if your (rational, to another posters point) manager's reaction is one of complete shock and surprise, it may be a sign you two weren't communicating sufficiently and planned/discussed your goals/expectations/challenges/direction/etc.
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  Yes! Good point: the manager needs to create the forum for those conversations to happen but the report still needs to take it on themselves to have that sometimes-awkward conversation.
- marbletimes 5y ago
  The assumption here is that the employee leaving the company was due to some problems that could not be solved after careful discussion with the manager, skip-level etc. But leaving a company can also happen because another company offers you 50% more money or a different role, or you just feel like changing. For any employee, including managers, directors and up—there is only one thing to remember: when the company intends to let you go, they don't ask for your opinion. Two-week notice is professional and more than enough.
  - Dayshine 5y ago
    > when the company intends to let you go, they don't ask for your opinion. Two-week notice is professional and more than enough American culture is so bizarre. Here in the UK notice (in both directions) is usually contractually 1 month after 6 months, sometimes up to 3 months. If they really want to get rid of you they can pay you to job seek full-time for a few months, which is great. In practice, you get several months of relaxed handover. After 2 years you get statutory protection and can't be fired, only made redundant, which comes with 1 week notice per year worked.
    - 5y ago
kevingadd 5y ago
I always give 2 weeks notice before quitting and make the transition as easy as possible, doing handoff meetings and educating whoever's taking over. In exchange, I usually get shafted by the employer. In one case they tried to claw back a signing bonus (despite the employment agreement etc not giving them the right to do it - nice) and in another case the abusive studio head walked over and told me to take my shit and leave immediately despite the fact that I was a producer in charge of an entire team and hadn't done any handoff (shocking no one, the latter studio ended up shipping their product 4+ years behind schedule) So I guess my takeaway is that it's still valuable to be nice if you care about the impact on your teammates, but I don't think your boss deserves it. Especially now when many companies have a policy of not providing references beyond 'yes i can confirm that so-and-so worked here' - the concept of 'burning your bridges' by not being sufficiently deferential to your awful boss doesn't exist.
feisar 5y ago
Good work to those who wrote it. If you have a better contract in hand then yes you should probably quit. With that being said however if you leave on bad terms and your next job asks to contact the manager from your previous job the would probably say that you left on bad terms and might ruin your reputation.
rsstack 5y ago
People here have been burnt by bad managers and it's honestly sad. If you have a personal relationship with your manager beyond emails and "how was your weekend", there's a good chance they will appreciate your longer notice (not 10 months!) and you'll keep them on your side for the rest of your career. I gave a 2-months notice once, and my manager's manager even helped me find my next role at a different company (which I ended up taking instead of an offer from Facebook). I can't remember which company it was, but some startup CEO posted on Hacker News a few months ago that they have a proper procedure for "long notices" where they help employees, even if they decide to stay at the end of it. That should be the goal in my opinion. P.S.: Yes, it can be more tricky in large corporations where the manager isn't independent and their manager is vindictive.
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  Exactly, this sounds like such a grown-up way to wind down a working relationship! I'm sure you'll stay in touch with that person and perhaps even refer people in their direction in the future.
  - aniforprez 5y ago
    I've stayed in touch with people even with "short" notices (1 month in my case) even if my leaving was a surprise. It just means the managers were professionals and didn't make me miserable as I was leaving. In one case, my CTO was an absolute gem through my entire stint there. It falls as much on them for me to want to stay in touch
billyhoffman 5y ago
Reasonable (though fairly hackneyed) advice. Until I get to this: > I let my boss know I was leaving in February, so my commitment to see things through to the end of the year was effectively a 10-month notice period. This, ironically, was the first sentence in a section entitled "Avoid giving too much notice" If you can't handoff your work in less than 2 weeks, either you as an employee have failed to properly document and communicate status of what you are doing, or the company culture has failed because it created an environment where someone could not pick up what you were doing and continue it. Why? Replace "quitting" with "suddenly died." Companies that can't recover from stuff like this are poorly run and with bad frontline managers. Short of being a founder and CEO of a startup who has to leave, and needs to gently hand it over so the company doesn't die, there is no valid reason for 10 months of notice. Hell, that is probably not a good reason.
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  OP here, yeah I mention the 10 months thing as an example of what not to do – the actual handover of tasks I did in maybe 1–2 months, and that was at a leisurely pace TBH. The first ~9 months we were in a slightly weird limbo unfortunately – that's what I was flagging up as an anti-pattern there.
- boznz 5y ago
  I am the sole programmer and support for a very large companies production system. The company has flagged the problem and has tried to re-write the system for several years but have never managed to retain a coherent programming team long enough to see the project through nor found a suitable replacement in the market. Luckily for them I am a contractor not an employee but there are definitely grey areas.
- tweetle_beetle 5y ago
  The author freely admits a 10 month handover was counter productive. But equally 2 weeks is not appropriate for many roles, especially in smaller companies, or where you may be the only employee with a specialist skill. It sounds like it may be more of a north american phenomenon to walk out of jobs at your own discretion(?). In my experience, people in the UK are observant of contractual notice periods and 3 months is not unusual for someone in a senior position. It's become a bit of a nonsensical arms race to tie people down to longer and longer notice periods to make it easier to bring someone in who hopefully has a shorter notice period for a convenient handover.
oblak 5y ago
I wasn't there but I was told a person communicated his message by taking a literal shit in the CEO (ex military, to give you some perspective) office.
givemeethekeys 5y ago
"Don't hate the player, hate the game". The game in California is "at will employment". I don't know about other industries, but most tech firms will lay you off with 0 days of notice if they no longer need your services, for example, to save money. On the other hand, loyalty to people may or may not be worthwhile - this very much depends on the people and your experience may be drastically different from everyone else'.
- ui4jd73bdj 5y ago
  Agreed. Even if you have a contract with x weeks notice period, breaching the contract is a legal move(penalty may vary). I had a non-standard 1 month notice period in my contract(normal is 2 weeks). I let them know I'm leaving in two weeks. They mentioned the notice period but I held my ground. They folded and 2 weeks was plenty to handover my work.
alfalfasprout 5y ago
I'm glad that things worked out for the author but this is just generally not great advice for most people. As nice as your manager is, even if they have your best interests in mind, they ultimately answer to someone else. And that means that even if they don't want to, they can f*k you over with minimal notice anyways. There's a power imbalance there. Certainly don't be a dick about leaving and burn a ton of bridges... but the standard 2 weeks with professional and minimal responses is the way to go.
albertTJames 5y ago
Great post, it is the kind of things you wish you read 10 years ago. Most negative comments I read here are basically reformulating Talion law. That's not how you make things better around you. You should behave as an employee like the employee you wish was working for you. Two weeks is not enough to hand off your work and allow a company/team to prepare. If your managers are asshole, then maybe you cannot change your environment by voicing concerns, and risk being fired. But if you made up your mind and know you're leaving, by giving 2 months notice you can make sure not to leave your team in a bad state If arguments based on core-values do not sway you, doing the right thing is also the way to get good recommendations and opportunities in the future.
- conro1108 5y ago
  > You should behave as an employee like the employee you wish was working for you. Why should I serve my employers interests over my own? I will behave as an employee in the way that is most beneficial to me personally. How much I care about my employers success is 100% dependent on how much I personally benefit from their success. If my employer wants a better transition than 2 weeks, they need to start thinking about how to incentivize that behavior.
GianFabien 5y ago
Based on my experience not giving too much notice is good advice. In one job, I gave a months notice to leave for a startup. Just before I left, some extra urgent work came in and I was retained for a couple of months as a contractor to avoid leaving a key client and my former employer in a lurch. It actually benefitted the startup that I was able to incrementally transition.
- passerby1 5y ago
  How did you postpone the next employment?
BeetleB 5y ago
There's a typo in the article's headline. It should read: "How Your Boss Would Like You to Quit" I've always found the sociology of work fascinating, and how it can vary so much from industry to industry. When I read statements like: > Your team trusted you and depended on you. It’s unethical to screw them over because they’re not paying you any more. I wonder what their world view is, and why they think you're screwing them over and not the manager/company screwing them over. I see this often in society where there is a large imbalance of power: The weak turn on the weak rather than turn on those in power. > Again, it’s unethical! Leaving the team at short notice is unethical? You may want to look into how such a notion came into place, and who it benefits more. Similarly, I often call out people at work who start throwing the words "professionalism" or "unprofessional" around. What do they think it means and why do they think that? It is fascinating. There is some good stuff in the article. While I do believe one should treat the management and company well if they treat you well, I also tell people that they should never forget that if they can drop you at no notice, you don't owe them any more than that. Staying 2 weeks or longer is a courtesy, and not a sign of professionalism. Just today got an email from a coworker who moved to another company some years ago. Her manager who she got along with very well recently jumped ship to another company, and her life is miserable under the new manager. Even if you have a great manager, always remember that they can (and probably will) leave. Plan your career accordingly.
- medvezhenok 5y ago
  Sort of. I think everyone should read "How to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie. I think in any interaction, if you want to maximize your success, you have to approach it from the frame of reference of the person you are talking to. Put yourself in their shoes, and think about what they care about, what they value, and then whatever you want to do, express it to them with reference to their perspective. This is especially true for hard conversations (like firing someone, or leaving a company, etc etc). Note that understanding and getting into their shoes does not mean bending over backwards to do it their way; you can still do things your way (or find a compromise between the two), but you have to convey that you understand their perspective and (ideally) how what you are doing can be beneficial / neutral for them from that perspective. Another good source is Coyote Talk vs Giraffe talk (it sounds silly, but I promise it isn't). That one is more focused on personal relationships, but I think much of it can be applied to work interactions too. Most fighting and animosity in the world is caused by people talking past each other, not engaging in actual constructive dialogue.
karaterobot 5y ago
In my experience an article about how to quit like a boss would involve making a ton of bad decisions, then jumping ship, using your "leadership experience" at the smoking crater you left behind as a way to get a higher paying position somewhere else. There may be a better way, but that's the only way I've ever seen a boss actually quit.
oramit 5y ago
This post is filled with bad and naive advice. I have thankfully worked in mostly rational companies and been able to be honest with managers about what is or isn't working. At my last job though I spent more than a year saying repeatedly that I wasn't happy with my project work and that I wanted more pay. Annual review rolls around and they didn't fix it. I had a new job offer in a month and when I put in my notice my manager was shocked. He's a good guy but he was also my boss which means he's only going to pay me enough to stay. Just accept that fact and move on. Match your notice period to the handover period - I'm sorry but everything about this section is wrong. Nothing you are working on is so important that you can't put it in a good state for someone else to pick up in your absence in two weeks. You stayed for 10 months? I can't tell if you or your employer was the one being strung along. "Your new role, if you have one arranged, should respect your decision to be professional about your handover period. They’ll wait, don’t worry." No - The hiring market for developers is red hot right now, no doubt about it, but potential employers are not going to sit around with a position open for months. Potential employers are not going to be impressed at your loyalty to a previous employer. They will think you are wasting their time and will probably be working to put someone else in that position while you dawdle. The two weeks notice period is the conventional standard and everyone knows what it means. Stick to that and you'll be fine.
- gleenn 5y ago
  They actually stated 10 months was way too long and cited many reasons. So that's not advice, that's reporting what didn't work well. I think we're all on the same page here 10 months is way too long including TFA.
- delgaudm 5y ago
  Could not agree more. The company is not, can not, and will not ever be loyal to you. Ever. They will fire you, lay you off, relieve you of duty instantly for any reason or no reason at all. They've lobbied for laws to do exactly that (in the US anyway). And they will keep information asymmetrical in their favor. No. Matter. What. In the long run they will be dishonest with you, they will lie to your face, and they will keep you in the dark. You won't know plans until they want you to know plans. They have to. It's the only way it works. You, as the employee, need to play the same game in the same way. Defensively. Know that you can keep information from them. Know you should only give information that is beneficial to you. Never self- sabotage. Never be weak. Business is a ruthless competitive game, and that includes employee to manager. You have no obligation to be honest in an exit interview. If it sucked horribly, leave with a smile and say it was great. Make it so they'll give you a great recommendation for your next gig. Lie to them like they lie to you. Bluff. Play chess, play poker. You don't have to care one whit about leaving your teammates with more work. Does the company give one shit about laying you off a week before Christmas with zero notice? No. They don't give a care at all about the disarray this causes for your life. Ultimately you are a cog, and disposable. You are not "the most valuable resource". You must be as ruthless with them as they are with you. It's the only way it works. Sure, this sounds super cyncial, you can absolutely do this and not be a dick. You don't have to be a dick at all, just think strategically, and know that you are the only one looking out for you, and you don't owe anyone anything.
ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago
This is bad advice and seems like the author doesn't have a lot of experience/ is naive. Quit with 2 weeks notice if you find something better and leave.
froaway4job 5y ago
I think it's really cool that this particular employee had a great quitting experience. However, this is the worst advice I have ever read. Good experiences should not be translated into advice. Your employer is not your friend. You may be lucky enough to have friends who share the same employer, but at the end of the day you are employed by a business, treat it accordingly. Here's how I handle quitting in a remote world (as a cold hearted jerk/machine, aka a business). I give my two weeks notice, and start my new job the same day I give notice. I effectively have no real work to do the last two weeks at my current job, and have a nice relaxed onboarding at my new job. At the end of the two weeks I collect two paychecks. Rinse and repeat every 1-2 years to collect a 30-40% raise.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > Good experiences should not be translated into advice. Where else would advice come from?
  - meepmorp 5y ago
    A range of experiences broader than just the good ones.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      Frankly, if someone's only ever had good experiences, I'd be interested in their advice.
- p1esk 5y ago
  start my new job the same day I give notice This is bad advice. Most contracts in US explicitly prohibit this, so you could land in legal troubles if either company ever found out.
  - froaway4job 5y ago
    It's not advice. It's just what I do. I've never had a contract that explicitly stated I couldn't work multiple jobs. (I work multiple full time jobs now)
fleddr 5y ago
It's funny how the diagram directly contradicts the entire article. "Your manager hears you out" NO -> "You should leave anyway" That's exactly the reason why you don't share your exit plan prematurely. Your exit plan is still in progress, it may need more time, it may fail altogether. You're risking all of that by telling about your exit too early. Don't say anything until you have a signed contract at the next employer. Do leave cleanly and gracefully. Do lie about reasons. Just say the place was great, and you were just looking for a change. This keeps your network spotless and you might get a reference letter. Should times go dark, you may have a place to run back to.
nescioquid 5y ago
> Your reasons for leaving shouldn’t be a suprise (sic) to your boss Two jobs ago, I resigned three months after having won one of the three top technical slots in the company. My SVP (a talented and smart climber) told me that she intended to plagiarize my resignation letter without even a perfunctory attempt at retention (not the first sneer to pass over my face as I confront the false cognate blessé -- begging pardon from our francophones). CapitalistCartr has commented that the advice is good given the environment be rational. I endorse this, as far as it goes, but the rationality here, really, is only of the etiquette of gentlemanly advancement. Advancement -- to what, exactly? Meaning? Remuneration? Prestige? As if the absence of a particular individual really creates any adversity for the so-called subordinates. Every organism is predicated upon a survival strategy, be it tooth or claw or (in our case) cooperation. When you are about to leave, lend aid to those who aided you.
cascom 5y ago
It’s the company and supervisor’s job to manage the success of that team, if someone leaving with standard notice of 2-3 weeks creates such a problem, that’s on management. a good supervisor should be proactively ensuring that key individuals are “fulfilled” in the role and/or be backfilling the role. The employee has no duty to their co-workers/team above good manners/civility and faithfully working towards a handoff.
pipitura 5y ago
orangesite 5y ago
Having spent more time working in toxic environments than non-toxic ones I really appreciate this perspective on managing the difficult decision to exit. As many commenters have pointed out: When there are no professional relationships you want to preserve for the years (decades!) to come the matter is easily handled with a two week notice and a swift departure before the morning light. However, when you have been fortunate enough to have worked with great colleagues it is a lot harder to exit the building without damaging your relationship with them.
- Nursie 5y ago
  I don't understand this at all. I've worked with great people a lot. When I make a move they understand that it's best for me. I understand it's best for them. One of the reasons they're great is that they document their work and share knowledge, so if someone leaves the rest of the team can pick up where they left off. Yes, the company then has the hassle of hiring, but companies need to factor that in and get to it. It seems almost childish that anyone would take such a move personally.
nutate 5y ago
I love that getting let go isn't even on the flowchart. Amateur!
perrygeo 5y ago
Ten months notice - Wow, that is WAY too much. If anything that's a strong indication that you or your company failed completely at your duties _prior_ to your resignation. A "professional" would never let themselves or their company be in such a position of utter dependence in the first place. Two weeks notice should always be sufficient for both parties. FWIW I gave 5 weeks notice at a job a decade ago and immediately regretted it - the last few weeks were beyond awkward as I'd already wrapped up all my projects, spoken to all my colleagues and clients, etc. I was waiting for the job to end but kept getting roped into last minute projects that I could not in good faith contribute to because I was, admittedly, just sitting around waiting for it to be over. Everyone lost. 2 weeks max is optimal and expected for everyone. If you're feeling pressured to give more time to the company after resigning, say no and stick firm to 2 weeks. If they've got actionable work and you're able (i.e. not exclusively employed immediately thereafter), give them the option to hire you as a contractor. If the work is actually valuable, they should have no problem cutting you a check to complete it as a consultant. If not, well they're lying to you and stringing you along to extract any value they can - and you should leave in two weeks if not sooner.
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  Agree, way too long! I gave that much of a heads-up of my leaving (not a formal resignation, as it happens) for a few reasons including: 1. It's a C-level replacement, which takes _months_ 2. I cared deeply (and still do) about my team and the company mission, and wanted them to succeed: "the more notice the better" seemed right to me (it wasn't) 3. My career plans were to move into a new field which would require various courses, lots of reading, conferences, etc. – although I knew I was leaving, I hadn't even started speaking to potential next employers or investors when I told my CEO I was leaving Putting all of that together is how I ended up with the 10 month blunder, but the post is less against 10 month notice periods, and more for matching the notice period to your handover, whatever that would be. I feel your pain on working out those 5 weeks you mention! Awkward for everyone involved.
TedShiller 5y ago
It may sound like semantics, but I've found it useful to think of "quitting" as actually "firing your boss". That is often the real reason people quit.
osrec 5y ago
I am a single data point, but trying to be too helpful when I've decided to leave an organisation has almost always backfired on me. My advice: do the bare minimum, so you're not considered a complete trash bag. Anything more might backfire on you in horrible ways. Disclaimer: I worked in trading, which can be a fairly hostile environment at the best of times.
techsin101 5y ago
you wouldn't be leaving your job if your manager was a reasonable or human being
- conro1108 5y ago
  Sure I would, if someone else can pay 50% more than my perfectly reasonably manager could.
quickthrower2 5y ago
I worked somewhere where I quit and they asked me if I wanted zero notice period, I said yes to get the fuck out and his eyes lit up at the prospect of saving a weeks salary. He told me he’d be a good reference. He gave me a really bad one. Take what you will from that but yeah quitting a job is as game theoretical as any other aspect of employment.
sdze 5y ago
flippinburgers 5y ago
You should keep your cards close. Never tell your employer what you are planning on doing in the coming weeks, months. They never tell you as an employee after all.
amne 5y ago
If you're not the CEO you're not leaving like a boss!
jillesvangurp 5y ago
The simple frame of mind you should have when letting people go or leaving yourself is that it's a small world and you might end up working together, interacting, meeting at a conference, etc. in a different context at some point in the future. So, don't burn any bridges. An employment relation is a business relation ship with some contractual obligations and rights. It's all spelled out in the employment contract. Anything on top of that is the personal integrity of the employee and the reputation of the company. It's a mutual interest to do the right thing on both sides and behave in a way that is consistent with maintaining a good reputation. For employees: your actions at company A might cause you problems at company B. People talk. I've seen people torpedo their careers by basically getting a well deserved reputation for not being entirely reliable/trustworthy. Anger issues in particular can be a problem. If you have them, learn to deal with them. I've actually advised friends to not hire certain people based on my negative experience with them. I've also done the opposite and helped people out by introducing them to their future employer. My own career changes each involved people in my network recommending me or introducing me. So, don't burn any bridges even if your employer treats you badly. Keep it friendly and professional. For employers: people talk about their employers both inside and outside the company. If your reputation suffers because of how you treat your own employees, it becomes a problem for recruiting. The more disgruntled ex-employees you have, the harder it becomes to recover from that. You can offer more money to compensate but your actions will cost you. Worse, your own employees might start voting with their feet if they see you treat people badly. It's usually your best people that leave first when that happens. Because they have options and good reputations. If the A's leave, you end up with a lot of B's hiring C's.

156 points by stuhlmueller 5y ago

This title needs an edit, like many of those noted, "How to Quit Like a Boss when you work for Rational People". Many places have toxic irrational people who would fire you in an instant and then have security escort you out of the office like a criminal.

sys_64738 5y ago

When you let your manager know you're unhappy then they can also quickly move to hire a replacement and fire you. You don't own a company anything beyond the last paycheck you received. Two weeks notice is the norm and, hey, it's just business. Don't take it personally if an employee leaves.

jamesbrady 5y ago
Your first sentence is true. Perhaps it's overly reductive of me, but if that's what your boss would do you're in that red "you should leave anyway" box, in my opinion. A few other commenters have pointed out good reasons (e.g. visas) where you need to keep your cards closer to your chest, but the vast majority of people reading Hacker News can find a role where it's not so transactional. Where you're valued as a person and teammate, and where you can have a grown-up conversation about your career plans. Those open conversations are harder to have if you truly believe your second sentence, however!

CapitalistCartr 5y ago

This is excellent advice for those working in a rational environment. For those working in an ego-driven environment, not so much. Plan your exit strategy as you would from an abusive spouse. Don't assume good faith on anyone else's part.

chadcmulligan 5y ago
Indeed, I was thinking where are these rational managers where you can discuss things openly. It seems the world of management is full of petty narcissistic control freaks.
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  I'm sorry that's been your experience! These managers definitely do exist - I have had them, I have seen them, and I have tried to be one. Perhaps I should have included "rational conversation is possible" as a decision point in the flowchart, with a negative answer leading to "you should leave anyway"!
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I'm far from perfect as a manager, but I've always worked to help employees working for me evaluate their career options inside and outside our company. I've had open conversations with my bosses about what my goals, skills, limits, etc. were. Many times, I've "saved" employees (from quitting) by helping them see a better path here than they expected was possible. Other times, I've said "holy crap, that sounds amazing and, even though I really value having you work here, I have to advise you that I'd make the jump if I was in your shoes." I've told my boss when (and why) I was interviewing for other roles. I've also told them when I've been totally satisfied and not intending to look for a while. I could work for a boss that I couldn't trust with that data, but I much prefer working for one that I can and I try to be the one that my directs can trust with it.
- vanusa 5y ago
  It seems the world of management is full of petty narcissistic control freaks. It can sure seem that way -- and no doubt is that way, in certain situations. More often I find they're simply ... scared. Of how they'll be evaluated, or what will happen if they make a mistake (or heavens, let someone below them make a mistake). Or of simply being "found out" (that they're not nearly as experienced or as sage in their advice as others have made them out to be).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
mds 5y ago
In a rational environment if you're leaving "for cause", it shouldn't come as a shock to your employer when you quit, in the same way a bad performance review or firing shouldn't come as a shock to the employee. There should be feedback in both directions, if they're not meeting your career goals or you're not meeting their performance goals. But as a rule I wouldn't tell my boss I'm actively interviewing until I have an offer in hand. Just like, and for a lot of the same reasons, the company as a rule isn't going to inform under-performing employees that they're actively looking to hire someone to replace them before firing them.
lmilcin 5y ago
I worked in many places including ego-driven, political and/or irrational. Leaving gracefully has never backfired on me. Actually, the opposite happened. Leaving gracefully has left me with some good friends and has led me to opportunities from people I worked with in the past and have became successful in the meantime. Additionally, at almost every company I happen to work with somebody that I have known before. Answer yourself, do you really want your ungraceful exit to become a problem at your new company now or in the future? What does it cost you to leave gracefully?
- ipaddr 5y ago
  I still strongly suggest you get everything in order (employment offer accepted) before sharing you are on a job search. Companies will start planning without you and you may not land the perfect job for months. Would a company share they are posting a job to replace you and then ask you to train that person before they actually do? Graceful is 2/3 weeks notice of handing off projects.
  - lmilcin 5y ago
    Well, you should have offer before you put your notice. I usually wait until I have the new contract signed. But the notice should not be a surprise to anybody. I tell my boss that I am actively searching, don't yet have an offer or a concrete date. I also tell him not to worry and reassure I will try to give him as much notice as possible and will cooperate to close whatever projects we can close and do necessary transfers gracefully. This lets him plan some things like grooming my replacement or put more emphasis on closing projects rather than starting new ones. Which is additional benefit for me because there aren't many things worse for me than working on a project that I know I will never be able to finish. Also here in Poland notice period is 1 month minimum. Since it is calendar month it can even be almost two months. But I also work as tech lead which means there is way more projects I am involved in and way more technical stuff to pass. I try as much as I can not to be a bus factor 1 employee but somehow there is always a bunch of things that people realise would like to get done before I leave because they know otherwise they will have to wait forever for them.
300bps 5y ago
I don’t think it’s good advice even for someone working in a rational environment. The part about giving ten months notice is terrible. He even says that it was bad for both sides! He was mentally checked out for months and not coming up with long term solutions because he knew he was out of there. Not my supposition - he literally says that. My past three jobs have all lasted at least a decade. I just don’t agree with much if any of the advice here other than the blatantly obvious things like “don’t sabotage them” lol.
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  I think we might have crossed wires here… The section you're referring to is titled "Avoid giving too much notice " and basically gives five reasons for why 10 months was a harmfully-long notice period. The advice is to give much less notice than that.
  - 300bps 5y ago
    I think you may have missed the part in my original comment where I said He even says that it was bad for both sides!. Respectfully, my point was that the way the author (you?) left that company reads like it was a train wreck. To a level that I wouldn't look to the author for any advice on how to leave a company. And what was the advice? Don't sabotage the company and don't give 10 months notice? If ten thousand people quit a job, how many would even imagine doing either of those things?
    - jamesbrady 5y ago
      Thankfully, it wasn't a train wreck! But yes, there were certainly some things I would have done differently. For me, I tend to learn more from my or someone else's mistakes than from when something went swimmingly – the post is an attempt to capture some of those. Your last paragraph strawmans me… but yes, two of my points are related to what you mention. Don't sabotage your team and don't give too much notice – I've seen several people do one or the other of these.
  - bigmattystyles 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
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yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago

Eh... kind of? Like, I don't disagree that there are reasonable points here, but: > Quitting should never be a surprise for your boss > What’s the worst that can happen? Not a total surprise, but in many environments even hinting that you're looking to leave will... greatly increase the urgency of your search. They might not terminate you outright (or they may), but it's gonna make the rest of your time there a lot less fun. The worst that can happen is that you admit you're thinking about leaving and get escorted out by security. Obviously it depends exactly what we mean by not being a surprise; problems should generally be communicated... perhaps it would be better to say "Your boss should be able to say why you left"? > Match your notice period to the handover period I personally think the handover part is a symptom; at least for the kind of work I do, if there was truly that much to hand over something already failed. Process goes in wiki, tasks go in Jira, code goes in version control... sure, there will always be a few things that only you really understood and some in-flight work that's not fully written down in a ticket, but IMO if it takes you even 2 full weeks to exit gracefully then either you messed up or the company messed up (ex. there was no other person to hand off to and they couldn't hire that fast).

jamesbrady 5y ago
Hmm, I hear you on the first point… Perhaps I'm blinkered to roles in tech (to which this post was aimed, but not explicitly enough)? In my experience at such companies, people certainly aren't walked if they express dissatisfaction in their role – but you're right that this doesn't necessarily transfer onto roles which are less competitive. I will think about how to tighten that piece up: thanks for the feedback. On the second point, I can only congratulate you if you manage to keep everything so organised and compartmentalised! It's something I've aspired to but always fallen short of.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  Right, unless the job/manager are totally insane they should never be surprised that you are to some degree dissatisfied. But in many jobs, it is to the employee's benefit to operate in such a way that the manager is surprised that they're actually leaving.

ragnot 5y ago

Honestly, it's really simple: two weeks and that's it. Been there 2 years and haven't gotten a raise/promotion? 2 weeks. Been there 10 years and are bored/didn't get what you want? 2 weeks. Don't fall over yourself helping the company. Chances are they are going to forget you in 3 months anyway.

sasawpg 5y ago
In case of your death, a replacement job posting will be up before your obituary. 10 months is crazy.
- seaman1921 5y ago
  Well of course an opening will be posted immediately if one dies - whats the point of waiting in that scenario ? That doesn't justify being a jerk and quitting without making an effort to ensure that the transition is smooth for your colleagues.
blagie 5y ago
Bad advice. I hate generalities. Last time I left a firm, there was 12 months notice (and the decision was mutual). That was the right choice for both sides. The organization I'm working at right now, it's not uncommon to give years of notice, mostly heading for retirement. Most tech companies are definitely two weeks, but that's far from the universe.
- paulcole 5y ago
  Something being “not uncommon” at your organization doesn’t make it good advice for anyone else. Unless there’s a contract or an extreme circumstance that demands otherwise, 2 weeks is a courtesy and an employer should be ready for 0 days notice.
  - blagie 5y ago
    That's very... transactional. I prefer organizations with cultures which are more relational. I spent a lot of time at work. I'd like work to be a community, for my work to be meaningful and interesting, and on the whole, that's more important than making a half a megabuck a year optimizing ad clicks. I have a job like that, and it doesn't pay as much as FAANG, but you know something: it pays enough, and I'm happy. I find the whole modern/California transactional culture is toxic to my psychological well-being, from divorce/relationship-hopping culture to job hopping culture to everything else. The whole world doesn't work like that, fortunately. Please don't try to force it to. (And conversely, I'm fine with the transactional culture existing, so long as I'm not in it)

paxys 5y ago

I don't get this advice. At least in tech it is understood that everyone has their eye open for the next big opportunity. If one comes along, I'm not going to hesitate to take it. It doesn't have to mean that there's a problem in my current role that I need to address with my manager. Sometimes you simply know that it is time to leave and try something new. If my current company is "surprised" by my decision and unprepared for my absence then that's on them.

jamesbrady 5y ago
> it is understood that everyone has their eye open for the next big opportunity This hasn't been my approach, nor has it been for many people I've worked with – or perhaps we're tripping over language? Let's say that someone is super motivated by a high salary. They would be helping their manager (and, in most situations, themselves) if they were open about that. Up to and including conversations like "I hear that Company X is paying 20% more for a comparable role – here's some data to show I'm underpaid". It's those kinds of conversations which would mean that your manager won't be surprised if in 6 months you leave for a better-paying role. Or, perhaps you get a nice pay rise. Or, if you can't have such conversations, see the red "you should leave anyway" box in the post!
- Den-vr 5y ago
  I especially agree on the approach regarding pay. Contrast that with "I have an offer from Company X that is 20% more, can you match it?" In the former case, you can be seen as expressing a sort of loyalty, in the latter case you live with a little extra workplace hostility even if your current employer agreed to match the offer. In that sense, when it's time to go it's best to go.
- marbletimes 5y ago
  But if you know that the current company cannot pay like the other company you are interviewing for, or that in this new company the future salary outlook is much better, why bother asking if they can pay you more? In the work life, one needs to be strategic; it appears to me that most people on here who are commenting somewhat negatively about people giving 2-week notice and nothing else have never been laid off or fired or somewhat "mistreated" by a company. The way to be an excellent employee is to always deliver work to the best of one's capabilities and give 2-week notice before leaving. In one company I worked for, somebody gave a 2-week notice and was let go immediately. It is not unheard of, and most legacy companies could not care less about a possible PR problem. Those legacy companies live in a galaxy that is far away from the one inhabited by start-ups and similar good PR-dependent companies, they are populated mostly by old dinosaurs that recruit heavily among the not-too-brilliant technical people.

ubermonkey 5y ago

That's an insanely pollyanna take on quitting. What's the worst that could happen? You could get fired for looking for another job. This happens. Most people I know have worked for someone toxic, or worked for a toxic organization. If you work for nice people and things just don't align, yeah, sure, this approach may be fine, but it's by no means universal.

hinkley 5y ago
I have never had this happen to me but I'm always prepared to walk out the door the same day I hand in my 2 week's. Any personal effects that I'm not using regularly have already snuck home with me during the previous week or two. Documentation I've been meaning to write has at least been attempted to be cleaned up.
simplestats 5y ago
I think the assumption is getting fired instantly from a toxic organization is probably a good thing. The problem is that a high likelihood of a better outcome (as opposed to ending up living in your car), still isn't a guarantee. The most risk-averse strategy should still use some of the advice posted here, but concerns like minimizing other people's problems and your own guilt are not worth the dangers.
- jamesbrady 5y ago
  > the assumption is getting fired instantly from a toxic organization is probably a good thing That's correct – although I definitely take on board some of the other commenters' feedback about things like visas tied to roles. I'm going to add some clarification to make it clear this really relates to employees in good standing in tech companies (obviously a tiny minority of the populace and one of the few groups who have the guarantee you mention).
- PeterisP 5y ago
  The article's comment to that "But if you have a crap manager it’s better to find that out clearly, and early" is, frankly, ridiculous - discussing your potential quitting is not the way how one would "find out early" that they have a crap manager - presumably they would already know very well at that point, and this would likely be a big part of why they're quitting.

cosmotic 5y ago

Heeding this advice would be much more generous than employers typically are, especially in an at-will employment environment. In my experience, employers give zero notice and provide zero assistance helping an employee find a replacement.

jamesbrady 5y ago
I think it depends on the situation. I definitely agree that performance-based firings would tend to be extremely brutal compared to the approach I advocate for here (largely due to the various risks posed by aggrieved employees). Perhaps I should add that this advice best (only?) applies if you're leaving a company in a sort of "natural parting of ways" kind of situation? Thanks for the feedback.
- cosmotic 5y ago
  No only performance-based firings, but throw-someone-else-under-the-bus firings and bad-management firings. Also cost-cutting layoffs or outsourcing-layoffs. Regardless of the cause, an employer almost-always will require a separation agreement be signed as a requisite action for any amount of severance pay. This is entirely to the benefit of the employer.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    If it’s entirely to the benefit of the employer, why would anyone sign them? Both sides get something from the agreement. Employer gets certainty. Employee gets certainty and some money.

ram_rar 5y ago

> Quitting should never be a surprise for your boss I get the spirit of this. But someone whos in tech on a visa, this is absolutely the worse advice. The fear or retaliation is real, especially in bigger firms where your manager has a lot of say. The moment higher ups have the slightest inkling that you're looking for other jobs, you'll soon get pushed out.

jamesbrady 5y ago
Oh, I hadn't considered role-tied visas… that's a good point. Let me add a couple of "excepts" in there. "Never" is too absolute.
- wahnfrieden 5y ago
  Please do your research on workplace retaliation
hodgesrm 5y ago
I know of a case where the manager actually called the INS after the employee left. Protect yourself and your family first. (I'm a manager myself.)
- ram_rar 5y ago
  INS?
  - icedchai 5y ago
    Immigration. When you're in the US on a Visa (maybe not all of them?), you need to have a job or you risk getting deported.
    - ram_rar 5y ago
      Thats weird, you still get ~ 60 days to find a new job. In case you dont have any lined up.

NikolaNovak 5y ago

I think the very first sentiment is the most universal one: Your quitting should not be a surprise to your manager. Just like year-end review (for those companies that have it) should not be a surprise to the employee - feedback should be continuous. Similarly, if your (rational, to another posters point) manager's reaction is one of complete shock and surprise, it may be a sign you two weren't communicating sufficiently and planned/discussed your goals/expectations/challenges/direction/etc.

jamesbrady 5y ago
Yes! Good point: the manager needs to create the forum for those conversations to happen but the report still needs to take it on themselves to have that sometimes-awkward conversation.
marbletimes 5y ago
The assumption here is that the employee leaving the company was due to some problems that could not be solved after careful discussion with the manager, skip-level etc. But leaving a company can also happen because another company offers you 50% more money or a different role, or you just feel like changing. For any employee, including managers, directors and up—there is only one thing to remember: when the company intends to let you go, they don't ask for your opinion. Two-week notice is professional and more than enough.
- Dayshine 5y ago
  > when the company intends to let you go, they don't ask for your opinion. Two-week notice is professional and more than enough American culture is so bizarre. Here in the UK notice (in both directions) is usually contractually 1 month after 6 months, sometimes up to 3 months. If they really want to get rid of you they can pay you to job seek full-time for a few months, which is great. In practice, you get several months of relaxed handover. After 2 years you get statutory protection and can't be fired, only made redundant, which comes with 1 week notice per year worked.
  - 5y ago

kevingadd 5y ago

I always give 2 weeks notice before quitting and make the transition as easy as possible, doing handoff meetings and educating whoever's taking over. In exchange, I usually get shafted by the employer. In one case they tried to claw back a signing bonus (despite the employment agreement etc not giving them the right to do it - nice) and in another case the abusive studio head walked over and told me to take my shit and leave immediately despite the fact that I was a producer in charge of an entire team and hadn't done any handoff (shocking no one, the latter studio ended up shipping their product 4+ years behind schedule) So I guess my takeaway is that it's still valuable to be nice if you care about the impact on your teammates, but I don't think your boss deserves it. Especially now when many companies have a policy of not providing references beyond 'yes i can confirm that so-and-so worked here' - the concept of 'burning your bridges' by not being sufficiently deferential to your awful boss doesn't exist.

feisar 5y ago

Good work to those who wrote it. If you have a better contract in hand then yes you should probably quit. With that being said however if you leave on bad terms and your next job asks to contact the manager from your previous job the would probably say that you left on bad terms and might ruin your reputation.

rsstack 5y ago

People here have been burnt by bad managers and it's honestly sad. If you have a personal relationship with your manager beyond emails and "how was your weekend", there's a good chance they will appreciate your longer notice (not 10 months!) and you'll keep them on your side for the rest of your career. I gave a 2-months notice once, and my manager's manager even helped me find my next role at a different company (which I ended up taking instead of an offer from Facebook). I can't remember which company it was, but some startup CEO posted on Hacker News a few months ago that they have a proper procedure for "long notices" where they help employees, even if they decide to stay at the end of it. That should be the goal in my opinion. P.S.: Yes, it can be more tricky in large corporations where the manager isn't independent and their manager is vindictive.

jamesbrady 5y ago
Exactly, this sounds like such a grown-up way to wind down a working relationship! I'm sure you'll stay in touch with that person and perhaps even refer people in their direction in the future.
- aniforprez 5y ago
  I've stayed in touch with people even with "short" notices (1 month in my case) even if my leaving was a surprise. It just means the managers were professionals and didn't make me miserable as I was leaving. In one case, my CTO was an absolute gem through my entire stint there. It falls as much on them for me to want to stay in touch

billyhoffman 5y ago

Reasonable (though fairly hackneyed) advice. Until I get to this: > I let my boss know I was leaving in February, so my commitment to see things through to the end of the year was effectively a 10-month notice period. This, ironically, was the first sentence in a section entitled "Avoid giving too much notice" If you can't handoff your work in less than 2 weeks, either you as an employee have failed to properly document and communicate status of what you are doing, or the company culture has failed because it created an environment where someone could not pick up what you were doing and continue it. Why? Replace "quitting" with "suddenly died." Companies that can't recover from stuff like this are poorly run and with bad frontline managers. Short of being a founder and CEO of a startup who has to leave, and needs to gently hand it over so the company doesn't die, there is no valid reason for 10 months of notice. Hell, that is probably not a good reason.

jamesbrady 5y ago
OP here, yeah I mention the 10 months thing as an example of what not to do – the actual handover of tasks I did in maybe 1–2 months, and that was at a leisurely pace TBH. The first ~9 months we were in a slightly weird limbo unfortunately – that's what I was flagging up as an anti-pattern there.
boznz 5y ago
I am the sole programmer and support for a very large companies production system. The company has flagged the problem and has tried to re-write the system for several years but have never managed to retain a coherent programming team long enough to see the project through nor found a suitable replacement in the market. Luckily for them I am a contractor not an employee but there are definitely grey areas.
tweetle_beetle 5y ago
The author freely admits a 10 month handover was counter productive. But equally 2 weeks is not appropriate for many roles, especially in smaller companies, or where you may be the only employee with a specialist skill. It sounds like it may be more of a north american phenomenon to walk out of jobs at your own discretion(?). In my experience, people in the UK are observant of contractual notice periods and 3 months is not unusual for someone in a senior position. It's become a bit of a nonsensical arms race to tie people down to longer and longer notice periods to make it easier to bring someone in who hopefully has a shorter notice period for a convenient handover.

oblak 5y ago

I wasn't there but I was told a person communicated his message by taking a literal shit in the CEO (ex military, to give you some perspective) office.

givemeethekeys 5y ago

"Don't hate the player, hate the game". The game in California is "at will employment". I don't know about other industries, but most tech firms will lay you off with 0 days of notice if they no longer need your services, for example, to save money. On the other hand, loyalty to people may or may not be worthwhile - this very much depends on the people and your experience may be drastically different from everyone else'.

ui4jd73bdj 5y ago
Agreed. Even if you have a contract with x weeks notice period, breaching the contract is a legal move(penalty may vary). I had a non-standard 1 month notice period in my contract(normal is 2 weeks). I let them know I'm leaving in two weeks. They mentioned the notice period but I held my ground. They folded and 2 weeks was plenty to handover my work.

alfalfasprout 5y ago

I'm glad that things worked out for the author but this is just generally not great advice for most people. As nice as your manager is, even if they have your best interests in mind, they ultimately answer to someone else. And that means that even if they don't want to, they can f*k you over with minimal notice anyways. There's a power imbalance there. Certainly don't be a dick about leaving and burn a ton of bridges... but the standard 2 weeks with professional and minimal responses is the way to go.

albertTJames 5y ago

Great post, it is the kind of things you wish you read 10 years ago. Most negative comments I read here are basically reformulating Talion law. That's not how you make things better around you. You should behave as an employee like the employee you wish was working for you. Two weeks is not enough to hand off your work and allow a company/team to prepare. If your managers are asshole, then maybe you cannot change your environment by voicing concerns, and risk being fired. But if you made up your mind and know you're leaving, by giving 2 months notice you can make sure not to leave your team in a bad state If arguments based on core-values do not sway you, doing the right thing is also the way to get good recommendations and opportunities in the future.

conro1108 5y ago
> You should behave as an employee like the employee you wish was working for you. Why should I serve my employers interests over my own? I will behave as an employee in the way that is most beneficial to me personally. How much I care about my employers success is 100% dependent on how much I personally benefit from their success. If my employer wants a better transition than 2 weeks, they need to start thinking about how to incentivize that behavior.

GianFabien 5y ago

Based on my experience not giving too much notice is good advice. In one job, I gave a months notice to leave for a startup. Just before I left, some extra urgent work came in and I was retained for a couple of months as a contractor to avoid leaving a key client and my former employer in a lurch. It actually benefitted the startup that I was able to incrementally transition.

passerby1 5y ago
How did you postpone the next employment?

BeetleB 5y ago

There's a typo in the article's headline. It should read: "How Your Boss Would Like You to Quit" I've always found the sociology of work fascinating, and how it can vary so much from industry to industry. When I read statements like: > Your team trusted you and depended on you. It’s unethical to screw them over because they’re not paying you any more. I wonder what their world view is, and why they think you're screwing them over and not the manager/company screwing them over. I see this often in society where there is a large imbalance of power: The weak turn on the weak rather than turn on those in power. > Again, it’s unethical! Leaving the team at short notice is unethical? You may want to look into how such a notion came into place, and who it benefits more. Similarly, I often call out people at work who start throwing the words "professionalism" or "unprofessional" around. What do they think it means and why do they think that? It is fascinating. There is some good stuff in the article. While I do believe one should treat the management and company well if they treat you well, I also tell people that they should never forget that if they can drop you at no notice, you don't owe them any more than that. Staying 2 weeks or longer is a courtesy, and not a sign of professionalism. Just today got an email from a coworker who moved to another company some years ago. Her manager who she got along with very well recently jumped ship to another company, and her life is miserable under the new manager. Even if you have a great manager, always remember that they can (and probably will) leave. Plan your career accordingly.

medvezhenok 5y ago
Sort of. I think everyone should read "How to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie. I think in any interaction, if you want to maximize your success, you have to approach it from the frame of reference of the person you are talking to. Put yourself in their shoes, and think about what they care about, what they value, and then whatever you want to do, express it to them with reference to their perspective. This is especially true for hard conversations (like firing someone, or leaving a company, etc etc). Note that understanding and getting into their shoes does not mean bending over backwards to do it their way; you can still do things your way (or find a compromise between the two), but you have to convey that you understand their perspective and (ideally) how what you are doing can be beneficial / neutral for them from that perspective. Another good source is Coyote Talk vs Giraffe talk (it sounds silly, but I promise it isn't). That one is more focused on personal relationships, but I think much of it can be applied to work interactions too. Most fighting and animosity in the world is caused by people talking past each other, not engaging in actual constructive dialogue.

karaterobot 5y ago

In my experience an article about how to quit like a boss would involve making a ton of bad decisions, then jumping ship, using your "leadership experience" at the smoking crater you left behind as a way to get a higher paying position somewhere else. There may be a better way, but that's the only way I've ever seen a boss actually quit.

oramit 5y ago

This post is filled with bad and naive advice. I have thankfully worked in mostly rational companies and been able to be honest with managers about what is or isn't working. At my last job though I spent more than a year saying repeatedly that I wasn't happy with my project work and that I wanted more pay. Annual review rolls around and they didn't fix it. I had a new job offer in a month and when I put in my notice my manager was shocked. He's a good guy but he was also my boss which means he's only going to pay me enough to stay. Just accept that fact and move on. Match your notice period to the handover period - I'm sorry but everything about this section is wrong. Nothing you are working on is so important that you can't put it in a good state for someone else to pick up in your absence in two weeks. You stayed for 10 months? I can't tell if you or your employer was the one being strung along. "Your new role, if you have one arranged, should respect your decision to be professional about your handover period. They’ll wait, don’t worry." No - The hiring market for developers is red hot right now, no doubt about it, but potential employers are not going to sit around with a position open for months. Potential employers are not going to be impressed at your loyalty to a previous employer. They will think you are wasting their time and will probably be working to put someone else in that position while you dawdle. The two weeks notice period is the conventional standard and everyone knows what it means. Stick to that and you'll be fine.

gleenn 5y ago
They actually stated 10 months was way too long and cited many reasons. So that's not advice, that's reporting what didn't work well. I think we're all on the same page here 10 months is way too long including TFA.
delgaudm 5y ago
Could not agree more. The company is not, can not, and will not ever be loyal to you. Ever. They will fire you, lay you off, relieve you of duty instantly for any reason or no reason at all. They've lobbied for laws to do exactly that (in the US anyway). And they will keep information asymmetrical in their favor. No. Matter. What. In the long run they will be dishonest with you, they will lie to your face, and they will keep you in the dark. You won't know plans until they want you to know plans. They have to. It's the only way it works. You, as the employee, need to play the same game in the same way. Defensively. Know that you can keep information from them. Know you should only give information that is beneficial to you. Never self- sabotage. Never be weak. Business is a ruthless competitive game, and that includes employee to manager. You have no obligation to be honest in an exit interview. If it sucked horribly, leave with a smile and say it was great. Make it so they'll give you a great recommendation for your next gig. Lie to them like they lie to you. Bluff. Play chess, play poker. You don't have to care one whit about leaving your teammates with more work. Does the company give one shit about laying you off a week before Christmas with zero notice? No. They don't give a care at all about the disarray this causes for your life. Ultimately you are a cog, and disposable. You are not "the most valuable resource". You must be as ruthless with them as they are with you. It's the only way it works. Sure, this sounds super cyncial, you can absolutely do this and not be a dick. You don't have to be a dick at all, just think strategically, and know that you are the only one looking out for you, and you don't owe anyone anything.

ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago

This is bad advice and seems like the author doesn't have a lot of experience/ is naive. Quit with 2 weeks notice if you find something better and leave.

froaway4job 5y ago

I think it's really cool that this particular employee had a great quitting experience. However, this is the worst advice I have ever read. Good experiences should not be translated into advice. Your employer is not your friend. You may be lucky enough to have friends who share the same employer, but at the end of the day you are employed by a business, treat it accordingly. Here's how I handle quitting in a remote world (as a cold hearted jerk/machine, aka a business). I give my two weeks notice, and start my new job the same day I give notice. I effectively have no real work to do the last two weeks at my current job, and have a nice relaxed onboarding at my new job. At the end of the two weeks I collect two paychecks. Rinse and repeat every 1-2 years to collect a 30-40% raise.

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> Good experiences should not be translated into advice. Where else would advice come from?
- meepmorp 5y ago
  A range of experiences broader than just the good ones.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    Frankly, if someone's only ever had good experiences, I'd be interested in their advice.
p1esk 5y ago
start my new job the same day I give notice This is bad advice. Most contracts in US explicitly prohibit this, so you could land in legal troubles if either company ever found out.
- froaway4job 5y ago
  It's not advice. It's just what I do. I've never had a contract that explicitly stated I couldn't work multiple jobs. (I work multiple full time jobs now)

fleddr 5y ago

It's funny how the diagram directly contradicts the entire article. "Your manager hears you out" NO -> "You should leave anyway" That's exactly the reason why you don't share your exit plan prematurely. Your exit plan is still in progress, it may need more time, it may fail altogether. You're risking all of that by telling about your exit too early. Don't say anything until you have a signed contract at the next employer. Do leave cleanly and gracefully. Do lie about reasons. Just say the place was great, and you were just looking for a change. This keeps your network spotless and you might get a reference letter. Should times go dark, you may have a place to run back to.

nescioquid 5y ago

> Your reasons for leaving shouldn’t be a suprise (sic) to your boss Two jobs ago, I resigned three months after having won one of the three top technical slots in the company. My SVP (a talented and smart climber) told me that she intended to plagiarize my resignation letter without even a perfunctory attempt at retention (not the first sneer to pass over my face as I confront the false cognate blessé -- begging pardon from our francophones). CapitalistCartr has commented that the advice is good given the environment be rational. I endorse this, as far as it goes, but the rationality here, really, is only of the etiquette of gentlemanly advancement. Advancement -- to what, exactly? Meaning? Remuneration? Prestige? As if the absence of a particular individual really creates any adversity for the so-called subordinates. Every organism is predicated upon a survival strategy, be it tooth or claw or (in our case) cooperation. When you are about to leave, lend aid to those who aided you.

cascom 5y ago

It’s the company and supervisor’s job to manage the success of that team, if someone leaving with standard notice of 2-3 weeks creates such a problem, that’s on management. a good supervisor should be proactively ensuring that key individuals are “fulfilled” in the role and/or be backfilling the role. The employee has no duty to their co-workers/team above good manners/civility and faithfully working towards a handoff.

pipitura 5y ago

orangesite 5y ago

Having spent more time working in toxic environments than non-toxic ones I really appreciate this perspective on managing the difficult decision to exit. As many commenters have pointed out: When there are no professional relationships you want to preserve for the years (decades!) to come the matter is easily handled with a two week notice and a swift departure before the morning light. However, when you have been fortunate enough to have worked with great colleagues it is a lot harder to exit the building without damaging your relationship with them.

Nursie 5y ago
I don't understand this at all. I've worked with great people a lot. When I make a move they understand that it's best for me. I understand it's best for them. One of the reasons they're great is that they document their work and share knowledge, so if someone leaves the rest of the team can pick up where they left off. Yes, the company then has the hassle of hiring, but companies need to factor that in and get to it. It seems almost childish that anyone would take such a move personally.

nutate 5y ago

I love that getting let go isn't even on the flowchart. Amateur!

perrygeo 5y ago

Ten months notice - Wow, that is WAY too much. If anything that's a strong indication that you or your company failed completely at your duties _prior_ to your resignation. A "professional" would never let themselves or their company be in such a position of utter dependence in the first place. Two weeks notice should always be sufficient for both parties. FWIW I gave 5 weeks notice at a job a decade ago and immediately regretted it - the last few weeks were beyond awkward as I'd already wrapped up all my projects, spoken to all my colleagues and clients, etc. I was waiting for the job to end but kept getting roped into last minute projects that I could not in good faith contribute to because I was, admittedly, just sitting around waiting for it to be over. Everyone lost. 2 weeks max is optimal and expected for everyone. If you're feeling pressured to give more time to the company after resigning, say no and stick firm to 2 weeks. If they've got actionable work and you're able (i.e. not exclusively employed immediately thereafter), give them the option to hire you as a contractor. If the work is actually valuable, they should have no problem cutting you a check to complete it as a consultant. If not, well they're lying to you and stringing you along to extract any value they can - and you should leave in two weeks if not sooner.

jamesbrady 5y ago
Agree, way too long! I gave that much of a heads-up of my leaving (not a formal resignation, as it happens) for a few reasons including: 1. It's a C-level replacement, which takes _months_ 2. I cared deeply (and still do) about my team and the company mission, and wanted them to succeed: "the more notice the better" seemed right to me (it wasn't) 3. My career plans were to move into a new field which would require various courses, lots of reading, conferences, etc. – although I knew I was leaving, I hadn't even started speaking to potential next employers or investors when I told my CEO I was leaving Putting all of that together is how I ended up with the 10 month blunder, but the post is less against 10 month notice periods, and more for matching the notice period to your handover, whatever that would be. I feel your pain on working out those 5 weeks you mention! Awkward for everyone involved.

TedShiller 5y ago

It may sound like semantics, but I've found it useful to think of "quitting" as actually "firing your boss". That is often the real reason people quit.

osrec 5y ago

I am a single data point, but trying to be too helpful when I've decided to leave an organisation has almost always backfired on me. My advice: do the bare minimum, so you're not considered a complete trash bag. Anything more might backfire on you in horrible ways. Disclaimer: I worked in trading, which can be a fairly hostile environment at the best of times.

techsin101 5y ago

you wouldn't be leaving your job if your manager was a reasonable or human being

conro1108 5y ago
Sure I would, if someone else can pay 50% more than my perfectly reasonably manager could.

quickthrower2 5y ago

I worked somewhere where I quit and they asked me if I wanted zero notice period, I said yes to get the fuck out and his eyes lit up at the prospect of saving a weeks salary. He told me he’d be a good reference. He gave me a really bad one. Take what you will from that but yeah quitting a job is as game theoretical as any other aspect of employment.

sdze 5y ago

flippinburgers 5y ago

You should keep your cards close. Never tell your employer what you are planning on doing in the coming weeks, months. They never tell you as an employee after all.

amne 5y ago

If you're not the CEO you're not leaving like a boss!

jillesvangurp 5y ago

The simple frame of mind you should have when letting people go or leaving yourself is that it's a small world and you might end up working together, interacting, meeting at a conference, etc. in a different context at some point in the future. So, don't burn any bridges. An employment relation is a business relation ship with some contractual obligations and rights. It's all spelled out in the employment contract. Anything on top of that is the personal integrity of the employee and the reputation of the company. It's a mutual interest to do the right thing on both sides and behave in a way that is consistent with maintaining a good reputation. For employees: your actions at company A might cause you problems at company B. People talk. I've seen people torpedo their careers by basically getting a well deserved reputation for not being entirely reliable/trustworthy. Anger issues in particular can be a problem. If you have them, learn to deal with them. I've actually advised friends to not hire certain people based on my negative experience with them. I've also done the opposite and helped people out by introducing them to their future employer. My own career changes each involved people in my network recommending me or introducing me. So, don't burn any bridges even if your employer treats you badly. Keep it friendly and professional. For employers: people talk about their employers both inside and outside the company. If your reputation suffers because of how you treat your own employees, it becomes a problem for recruiting. The more disgruntled ex-employees you have, the harder it becomes to recover from that. You can offer more money to compensate but your actions will cost you. Worse, your own employees might start voting with their feet if they see you treat people badly. It's usually your best people that leave first when that happens. Because they have options and good reputations. If the A's leave, you end up with a lot of B's hiring C's.