6 ms·

There’s a concerted effort by world leaders to demonize the unvaccinated. I am vaccinated, but as a human being, is this a useful approach?

by RONROC 5y ago

disambiguation 5y ago
I also wonder why they take this approach and don't simply do mandatory / compulsory injections. In fact have any governments imposed mandatory injections yet?
- benmmurphy 5y ago
  Nothing bad could possibly happen in reaction to such a policy
  - disambiguation 5y ago
    I don't support the idea, just wondering out loud. But I agree, it's lose-lose situation. Just hard to imagine it could be worse than what we have going on now.
- occamrazor 5y ago
  Italy for healthcare professionals and for over 50.
darthrupert 5y ago
I think yes. These people really seem to believe that they are right. What other methods do we still have of convincing them? Some of them undoubtedly will double down, but those people are probably unreachable by sanity anyway.
- pageandrew 5y ago
  Let people make their own medical decisions. As we're seeing right now, even high levels of vaccination don't protect a community against high rates of transmission. Just look at Israel, which was the first country in the world to widely roll out boosters and is currently in the middle of an Omicron wave. Initially there were hopes that vaccines would suppress the spread of the virus enough to end the pandemic, and if that turned out to be true then the unvaccinated would in fact be prolonging the pandemic, but now we know that that is not true. Anyone can get Covid, and anyone can give it to someone else. Vaccines are about personal protection at this point, not community protection.
  - c0nducktr 5y ago
    They keep the hospitalization numbers down, which I feel is rather important to a community.
    - pageandrew 5y ago
      Is there any active rationing of healthcare anywhere in the US due to the Omicron or Delta waves? I always hear about how the hospital system "could be overwhelmed" but I haven't seen any real evidence that people were being denied care because there are too many unvaccinated people in the hospital.
      - tssva 5y ago
        Here is some anecdotal evidence for you. My daughter's riding instructor was scheduled for long needed back surgery on November 29th. Her pain has gotten so bad that she can no longer work and is basically bed ridden. Her surgery was cancelled for the 29th and has been repeatedly rescheduled then cancelled since because the hospital is overwhelmed by COVID patients. She is now scheduled for Monday and hopefully will actually be able to have the surgery this time.
      - Rodeoclash 5y ago
        In my state, Victoria Australia, elective surgery has been suspended (again!) due to the rising number of Covid infections. https://www.smh.com.au/national/hospitals-are-being-crippled-elective-surgery-halted-as-health-system-strains-under-pressure-20220105-p59m1j.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/hospitals-are-being-crippled... We have also had the ambulance system issue statements that they are having delays in reaching people (code reds). The unvaccinated make up the bulk of people that need hospital treatment here. Their choice to remain unvaccinated is having a direct impact on the community as a whole.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    When your decision impacts others (through health system overload), they’re not your medical decisions, these are community/social fabric decisions. Unless we’re going to triage hospital care for the unvaccinated to the back of the line, in which case I support vaccine choice (vaccinated myself, adult family members who aren’t). This is a group project we're being graded on. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7046a5.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7046a5.htm (Impact of Hospital Strain on Excess Deaths During the COVID-19 Pandemic — United States, July 2020–July 2021) https://medicalpartnership.usg.edu/covid-19-staggering-statistic-98-to-99-of-americans-dying-are-unvaccinated/ https://medicalpartnership.usg.edu/covid-19-staggering-stati... (Staggering COVID-19 Statistic: 98% to 99% of Americans Dying are Unvaccinated) https://www.media.pa.gov/pages/health-details.aspx?newsid=1595 https://www.media.pa.gov/pages/health-details.aspx?newsid=15... (Vaccines Work: 97% Of COVID Deaths, 95% Of Hospitalizations And 94% Of Cases Are Among Unvaccinated Pennsylvanians) https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036023973/covid-19-unvaccinated-deaths-11-times-more-likely https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036023973/covid-19-unvaccina... (Unvaccinated People Are 11 Times More Likely To Die Of COVID-19, New Research Finds | September 10th, 2021) https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/18/health-workers-overwhelmed-covid-deaths-among-unvaccinated/ https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/18/health-workers-overwhelm... (‘It’s soul-draining’: Health workers deployed to Covid hot zones are overwhelmed by deaths among the unvaccinated) https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination (Our World In Data: How do death rates from COVID-19 differ between people who are vaccinated and those who are not?) https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-short... (Veteran dies of treatable illness as COVID fills hospital beds, leaving doctors "playing musical chairs") https://www.vox.com/coronavirus-covid19/2021/9/14/22650733/us-covid-19-hospitals-full-texas-alabama https://www.vox.com/coronavirus-covid19/2021/9/14/22650733/u... (Americans are dying because no hospital will take them)
- disambiguation 5y ago
  I'm unvaccinated, we can both be right. The data is clear about the following: - The vaccine is better than nothing for most people. - If you're over 50 and unvaccinated you have a high risk of severe outcome. - The vast majority of people have low / negligible risk of severe outcome. - Stopping variants was never possible. - Stopping the spread was never possible. - Slowing the spread is only meaningful among people who will get hospitalized -- e.g no reason to lock kids out of school for 2 years. As for demonizing, I think there's little evidence this is encouraging the unvaccinated to switch sides. It begs the question why leaders haven't imposed mandatory injections at this point? Surely it would be less painful than this. Maybe governments want the division as an excuse to push some agenda? who knows.
  - MerelyMortal 5y ago
    > no reason to lock kids out of school for 2 years. Maybe they didn't want the kids spreading it to people who would have been hospitalized?
    - disambiguation 5y ago
      > Data now suggest that many changes to school routines are of questionable value in controlling the virus’s spread. Some researchers are skeptical that school closures reduce Covid cases in most instances. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/04/briefing/american-children-crisis-pandemic.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/04/briefing/american-childre...
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
HeyZuess 5y ago
> There’s a concerted effort by world leaders to demonize the unvaccinated. There is a lot a play in The Philippines. First off this goes back to the beginning of his term, and an inquiry into Denguevax which they used to berate the previous President. This forced a lot of people to fear vaccines. Many people are not vaccinated against even the most common illnesses such as Measles, TB etc. Some because they refused to be (religion playing a part) and some because there just aren't the resources. Then there was issues with supply of vaccines, which made the leadership look incompetent. They had this same line when they could not even acquire vaccines, that they would punish people who did not get vaccinated. This is his final term with elections this year, and he is facing investigation by the ICC. He is a hardliner who took power, and 1000s if not 10s of 1000s of people died in a drug war which he is clearly a provocateur of. If the opposition gets in, he will likely end up in the Hague, so he needs political support and the country loves hardliners. The list goes on from there, to corruption in the government health care department, potential corruption in the supply of PPE and other equipment, coming last in many lists of response performance in dealing with covid etc etc. If it was non-vaccinated people it would be the Church, drug addicts, foreigners or whatever. This isn't demonization of the unvaccinated, it is an Authoritarian response to being a bad situation.

There’s a concerted effort by world leaders to demonize the unvaccinated. I am vaccinated, but as a human being, is this a useful approach?

by RONROC 5y ago

There’s a concerted effort by world leaders to demonize the unvaccinated. I am vaccinated, but as a human being, is this a useful approach?

disambiguation 5y ago

I also wonder why they take this approach and don't simply do mandatory / compulsory injections. In fact have any governments imposed mandatory injections yet?

benmmurphy 5y ago
Nothing bad could possibly happen in reaction to such a policy
- disambiguation 5y ago
  I don't support the idea, just wondering out loud. But I agree, it's lose-lose situation. Just hard to imagine it could be worse than what we have going on now.
occamrazor 5y ago
Italy for healthcare professionals and for over 50.

darthrupert 5y ago

I think yes. These people really seem to believe that they are right. What other methods do we still have of convincing them? Some of them undoubtedly will double down, but those people are probably unreachable by sanity anyway.

pageandrew 5y ago
Let people make their own medical decisions. As we're seeing right now, even high levels of vaccination don't protect a community against high rates of transmission. Just look at Israel, which was the first country in the world to widely roll out boosters and is currently in the middle of an Omicron wave. Initially there were hopes that vaccines would suppress the spread of the virus enough to end the pandemic, and if that turned out to be true then the unvaccinated would in fact be prolonging the pandemic, but now we know that that is not true. Anyone can get Covid, and anyone can give it to someone else. Vaccines are about personal protection at this point, not community protection.
- c0nducktr 5y ago
  They keep the hospitalization numbers down, which I feel is rather important to a community.
  - pageandrew 5y ago
    Is there any active rationing of healthcare anywhere in the US due to the Omicron or Delta waves? I always hear about how the hospital system "could be overwhelmed" but I haven't seen any real evidence that people were being denied care because there are too many unvaccinated people in the hospital.
    - tssva 5y ago
      Here is some anecdotal evidence for you. My daughter's riding instructor was scheduled for long needed back surgery on November 29th. Her pain has gotten so bad that she can no longer work and is basically bed ridden. Her surgery was cancelled for the 29th and has been repeatedly rescheduled then cancelled since because the hospital is overwhelmed by COVID patients. She is now scheduled for Monday and hopefully will actually be able to have the surgery this time.
    - Rodeoclash 5y ago
      In my state, Victoria Australia, elective surgery has been suspended (again!) due to the rising number of Covid infections. https://www.smh.com.au/national/hospitals-are-being-crippled-elective-surgery-halted-as-health-system-strains-under-pressure-20220105-p59m1j.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/hospitals-are-being-crippled... We have also had the ambulance system issue statements that they are having delays in reaching people (code reds). The unvaccinated make up the bulk of people that need hospital treatment here. Their choice to remain unvaccinated is having a direct impact on the community as a whole.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  When your decision impacts others (through health system overload), they’re not your medical decisions, these are community/social fabric decisions. Unless we’re going to triage hospital care for the unvaccinated to the back of the line, in which case I support vaccine choice (vaccinated myself, adult family members who aren’t). This is a group project we're being graded on. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7046a5.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7046a5.htm (Impact of Hospital Strain on Excess Deaths During the COVID-19 Pandemic — United States, July 2020–July 2021) https://medicalpartnership.usg.edu/covid-19-staggering-statistic-98-to-99-of-americans-dying-are-unvaccinated/ https://medicalpartnership.usg.edu/covid-19-staggering-stati... (Staggering COVID-19 Statistic: 98% to 99% of Americans Dying are Unvaccinated) https://www.media.pa.gov/pages/health-details.aspx?newsid=1595 https://www.media.pa.gov/pages/health-details.aspx?newsid=15... (Vaccines Work: 97% Of COVID Deaths, 95% Of Hospitalizations And 94% Of Cases Are Among Unvaccinated Pennsylvanians) https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036023973/covid-19-unvaccinated-deaths-11-times-more-likely https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036023973/covid-19-unvaccina... (Unvaccinated People Are 11 Times More Likely To Die Of COVID-19, New Research Finds | September 10th, 2021) https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/18/health-workers-overwhelmed-covid-deaths-among-unvaccinated/ https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/18/health-workers-overwhelm... (‘It’s soul-draining’: Health workers deployed to Covid hot zones are overwhelmed by deaths among the unvaccinated) https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination (Our World In Data: How do death rates from COVID-19 differ between people who are vaccinated and those who are not?) https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-short... (Veteran dies of treatable illness as COVID fills hospital beds, leaving doctors "playing musical chairs") https://www.vox.com/coronavirus-covid19/2021/9/14/22650733/us-covid-19-hospitals-full-texas-alabama https://www.vox.com/coronavirus-covid19/2021/9/14/22650733/u... (Americans are dying because no hospital will take them)
disambiguation 5y ago
I'm unvaccinated, we can both be right. The data is clear about the following: - The vaccine is better than nothing for most people. - If you're over 50 and unvaccinated you have a high risk of severe outcome. - The vast majority of people have low / negligible risk of severe outcome. - Stopping variants was never possible. - Stopping the spread was never possible. - Slowing the spread is only meaningful among people who will get hospitalized -- e.g no reason to lock kids out of school for 2 years. As for demonizing, I think there's little evidence this is encouraging the unvaccinated to switch sides. It begs the question why leaders haven't imposed mandatory injections at this point? Surely it would be less painful than this. Maybe governments want the division as an excuse to push some agenda? who knows.
- MerelyMortal 5y ago
  > no reason to lock kids out of school for 2 years. Maybe they didn't want the kids spreading it to people who would have been hospitalized?
  - disambiguation 5y ago
    > Data now suggest that many changes to school routines are of questionable value in controlling the virus’s spread. Some researchers are skeptical that school closures reduce Covid cases in most instances. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/04/briefing/american-children-crisis-pandemic.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/04/briefing/american-childre...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

HeyZuess 5y ago

> There’s a concerted effort by world leaders to demonize the unvaccinated. There is a lot a play in The Philippines. First off this goes back to the beginning of his term, and an inquiry into Denguevax which they used to berate the previous President. This forced a lot of people to fear vaccines. Many people are not vaccinated against even the most common illnesses such as Measles, TB etc. Some because they refused to be (religion playing a part) and some because there just aren't the resources. Then there was issues with supply of vaccines, which made the leadership look incompetent. They had this same line when they could not even acquire vaccines, that they would punish people who did not get vaccinated. This is his final term with elections this year, and he is facing investigation by the ICC. He is a hardliner who took power, and 1000s if not 10s of 1000s of people died in a drug war which he is clearly a provocateur of. If the opposition gets in, he will likely end up in the Hague, so he needs political support and the country loves hardliners. The list goes on from there, to corruption in the government health care department, potential corruption in the supply of PPE and other equipment, coming last in many lists of response performance in dealing with covid etc etc. If it was non-vaccinated people it would be the Church, drug addicts, foreigners or whatever. This isn't demonization of the unvaccinated, it is an Authoritarian response to being a bad situation.