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Between this and Tesla citing climate change as a reason for dropping crypto, this is actually a very interesting shift, and one that might be very bad for cryp
by mjr00 5y ago
Between this and Tesla citing climate change as a reason for dropping crypto, this is actually a very interesting shift, and one that might be very bad for crypto.
The amount of money people actually donated or spent with crypto has always been minimal. (Wish I had harder numbers to back this up, but you can see second-order effects from e.g. Steam adding Bitcoin support but then taking it away. Or how Bitpay has stagnated heavily, while a purely investment/speculation platform like Coinbase is worth billions.) However, for a long time, the benefit of accepting Bitcoin as payment was the marketing. Accepting crypto signaled that you were a cool company, you could put out a press release and the news media would run articles about how X service is now accepting cryptocurrency for payments.
The same thing happened again years later with "blockchain." Remember Kodakcoin? Remember Long Island Blockchain? Nothing ever really surfaced from these initiatives, but again, it was all about that big marketing hype that came from saying your company was going to use blockchain for... something.
Where it gets interesting is... what if crypto becomes anathema? What if accepting crypto or holding crypto starts become so closely associated with directly causing climate change, that no company is going to want to be openly associated with crypto, NFTs, etc due to the negative association?
You have one side hyping up Web3 as the next evolution as the web, but if the perception of crypto continues to be that it's a significant contributor to climate change -- regardless of how true that may be -- we could see a major decline in mainstream support.
- TimJRobinson 5y agoIt's crazy that it's 2022 and so many people on HN still think crypto is majority Proof of Work... Ethereum is transitioning to Proof of Stake this year and after that Bitcoin will be the ONLY major cryptocurrency still on PoW.
- nikanj 5y agoYou can still use cryptos to pay for unmentionables on the web, extract anonymous payments from crime victims, and most importantly gamble in a wholly unregulated casino.
- drdeca 5y agoI'd also note that the unregulated casinos can be (but aren't always) verifiable in how they function, so if you want high assurance that the odds and such are as stated, you can (in some cases) obtain such assurance, despite the lack of regulation. (but, you'd have to be careful to check the claims and such, and, if you can't or don't have time to check the software yourself, you might have to trust a 3rd party evaluating the system, and possibly there wouldn't be any such organization that you would trust who has done such a check.)
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- eqmvii 5y ago> what if crypto becomes anathema? From your lips to God’s ears. I’ve often wished there were a way to organize against crypto, since the incentives are so high for true believers to organize for it and find more people to buy into the ecosystem.
- MarkPNeyer 5y ago> I’ve often wished there were a way to organize against crypto, From my perspective, it's a peaceful revolution against a corrupt global status quo. The only people hurt by this false perception (bitcoin makes renewables more profitable by acting as a buyer when nobody else will) are people who don't buy bitcoin. And it's their loss. What would you say to someone in el salvador who's happy accepting bitcoin because they no longer have to trek to ATM's and risk getting mugged? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVVZXUFItZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVVZXUFItZY
- mad182 5y ago> makes renewables more profitable In other words - increases energy prices for everyone.
- IAmEveryone 5y agoIs “ making renewables profitable” the new talking point? I’m glad for the change because I got tired reading about all these dams China had apparently built in areas not connected to their grid.
- spiralx 5y agoDon't forget all those power plants generating power when there was no demand! “Making renewables profitable” is the same talking point as “utilising excess power” as I see it, or at least a minor variation of it.
- arcticbull 5y ago> From my perspective, it's a peaceful revolution against a corrupt global status quo. It's not though. It's broadly a combination of ignorance of how the present system actually works, tinfoil hat economics and anarcocapitalist libertarian ideology. It replaces one set of corruption (accountable to the people) with a whole new set of corruption. Money laundering, crime, wash trading, tape painting, spoof orders - an Inspector Gadget run shadow bank in the Bahamas printing ersatz dollars - the whole shebang. Out with the old criminals technically accountable, in with new criminals definitely unaccountable. This is strictly worse by all metrics. And that's before we even broach how terrible deflationary money actually is in practice. > The only people hurt by this false perception (bitcoin incentives clean energy production and makes renewables more profitable) are people who don't buy bitcoin. And it's their loss. If you build a bunch of green energy then waste it all, you haven't incentivized anything. You've just wasted a bunch of green energy - without that benefit accruing to the actual grid. Any time the price goes up so does the budget for waste. It's everyone's loss. > What would you say to someone in el salvador who's happy accepting bitcoin because they no longer have to trek to ATM's and risk getting mugged? I would say if they're happy with digital money they can open a Wise Multicurrency account. But they're not happy accepting bitcoin. [1, 2] They're being forced by an authoritarian dictator to accept it, at gunpoint. [1] https://www.reuters.com/technology/majority-salvadorans-do-not-want-bitcoin-poll-shows-2021-09-02/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/majority-salvadorans-do-n... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-58579415 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-58579415
- wmf 5y ago1. Start accepting crypto, get a PR bump 2. Stop accepting crypto because you're green, get another PR bump
- rchaud 5y agoMozilla has been accepting it for years, 2017 at least. I imagine nobody donated anything of palpable value because they had to re-announce that they do in fact accept crypto. That's what kicked off the controversy. Also, I haven't seen Mozilla associated with positive PR for a long time. Much as I love Firefox, it's dead on mobile.
- jefftk 5y ago> Much as I love Firefox, it's dead on mobile. What's wrong with Firefox for Android? (Firefox for iOS is just reskinned WebKit, like all other iOS browsers, but hopefully Apple has to open this up soon)
- suprfsat 5y agoThey had a perfectly working browser and replaced it with a broken one with no support for extensions, printing/PDF, and WebAuthn. about:config is currently disabled, so for instance setting proxies no longer work. Ah, I see one of the … 18 supported extensions is a proxy setter. Basically they shipped premature beta software and abandoned the stable working version.
- yellowapple 5y agoI don't know about printing or WebAuthn, but I'm on Nightly and extensions (particularly uBlock Origin) work just fine AFAICT. And so does about:config.
- suprfsat 5y agoWebAuthn works now, but it was a regression. Nightly supports about:config but stable does not. Only a specific short list of extensions are supported.
- arcticbull 5y ago> Or how Bitpay has stagnated heavily... Bitpay publishes their merchant mix and it's literally all money laundering and crime havens. 45% (!!) Gift Cards. 15% "Internet." 12.25% "VPN." 9% "Computer games." [1] That's 81.25% the darkest shadiest industries out there. [1] https://bitpay.com/stats/ https://bitpay.com/stats/
- notch656a 5y agoThat's utter bullshit. APMEX (precious metals) for instance allows BitPay, and that's actually how I buy bullion from them because it's the fastest way to clear payment without paying credit card fees. All the money I spent was legal income reported on a W-2.
- arcticbull 5y agoPrecious metals is 3.77% of Bitpay volume. Which part exactly is bullshit? I'm quoting their site.
- notch656a 5y ago"it's literally all money laundering and crime havens." Which is my silver coin purchase being used for, money laundering of my legally reported electronics design or is it my criminal enterprise of liking silver?
- arcticbull 5y ago"literally all" in this context was hyperbole, which was then quantified two lines lower down at 81.25%. I think most folks would agree that is substantially all, or hyperbolically "literally all." In the "literally got your back bro" way. [1] [1] https://theoatmeal.com/comics/literally https://theoatmeal.com/comics/literally
- FabHK 5y agoI wonder in which category OnlyFans, Chaturbate, etc. fall? Normally porn is quick with adopting new tech. (or don't they accept crypto?)
- kitsune_ 5y agoThere are crypto currencies by actual computer scientists, like Algorand by Silvio Micali, that seem to be much further ahead than others when it comes to low-emissions proof-of-stake implementations. In Algorand's case, they even offset the carbon emissions of the network and as such their blockchain is effectively carbon neutral. Or as carbon neutral you can be when you use offsetting. At least to me, they look more intriguing than all the older crypto currencies. I always wondered why you would bother with all these inefficiencies for some lofty idea of 'decentralisation' when we have run of the mill consensus algorithms and distributed systems that just work.
- PretzelPirate 5y agoAlgorand relies completely on centralized relay nodes. You might as well just use a centralized service which will be more efficient and cheaper.
- kitsune_ 5y agoAfaik not for the consensus mechanism itself, which is done by permissionless participation nodes. I think they plan to move the relay nodes to a permissionless model as well.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- wmf 5y agoWhen people don't adopt superior tech that's a sign that crypto is about something else.
- int_19h 5y agoOr, it could be just the usual first mover advantage.
- lezojeda 5y agoI wonder how those who work from a third world country like Argentina with a hard fiat currency control from our government will achieve to get paid without being robbed by it. I'll explain: today our government forbids us from buying foreign currency such as the US dollar (200 tops for a really REALLY small portion of the population) so a black market has been at place since the prohibition started many years ago. In this market each dollar corresponds to 200 pesos while the government states each one costs around 100 pesos. So, if you work for a company outside, and the pay you 1000 usd, you get 100,000 pesos when you could get 200,000 in reality. Not only that, you also are forbid from buying dollars, so if you want to get them to avoid our rampant inflation (50% average, around 100% for groceries) you only have the black market which is around 200 pesos. I know about the damages to the cliamte of crypto mining but consider also that there are some beneficial uses of these currencies for people like me who don't live in the first world.
- jollybean 5y agoArgentinians who want to avoid their own currency would be 10x better served by USD than BTC.
- hogrider 5y agoThis is true but you van only buy a few dollars from official sources, after that you need to go black market where thry will screw you over with fake bills.
- kragen 5y agoThe USD inflated 6% over the last year, and getting it into the country is often difficult, but it is indeed very popular here.
- jollybean 5y ago6% is fine, at least it's not +/-100% and it's accepted everywhere. For now.
- 5y ago
- ayngg 5y agoIn what way is crypto not anathema already? HN has basically been dumpstering it for over a decade now at every opportunity, the general public considers it some imaginary money ponzi scheme scam, over the last year people are laughing at the stupidity of things like NFTs and meme altcoins. It was only very recently that anyone in finance has even begun to consider it anything but a complete joke. Of the people that don't consider it an outright scam, probably 90% of those people are insufferable cryptobros or scammers who latch onto the buzzword, who make hating cryptocurrencies very easy. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the media attention it gets is mostly because of how much most everyone hates it. It is the thing that tech inclined people love to hate watch.
- acdha 5y agoIt’s not that simple: the very large amount of money VCs and other speculators have pumped into it has ensured a steady stream of favorable coverage for years. The stories tend to get a hostile reaction from people who understand technology or economics but each round finds new people who think there might be a pony somewhere since they’ve been hearing about it for years.
- mjr00 5y agoIt's currently being propped up by big, legitimate corporations: everything from sports organizations like the NBA, UFC, and WWE to food brands like Taco Bell and McDonalds are pumping out NFTs. The Lakers are now playing in the Crypto.com arena, even. On HN it certainly gets a lot of hate, but there's not so much in the mainstream right now. I don't think the Lakers would have agreed to a sponsorship where they play in the BP Oil Fracking Arena, for instance.
- hammyhavoc 5y agoHow about the Sneaker Brand Sweat Shop Arena though? Where do people draw their line with ethics and caring about the impact of what they support?
- mjr00 5y ago
- pkulak 5y agoJust here to point out, once again, that there's lots of "crypto" stuff that doesn't use proof of work.
- jnwatson 5y agoThe non-proof-of-work schemes are all either small experiments or World of Warcraft gold with signatures. I genuinely hope for the environment that other schemes work out, but we’re not there yet.
- TimJRobinson 5y agoProof of stake chains already secure over 50 Billion dollars in value - https://defillama.com/chains https://defillama.com/chains. Everything but Ethereum in the top 20 is proof of stake, Ethereum will be transitioning to it this year.
- pkulak 5y agoDenigrate how you will, but they work to transfer value securely, which is what's needed here.
- Zpalmtree 5y agoSolana had over 2 billion dollars of volume transacted today. Pretty big experiment.
- advrs 5y agoWhere? Can you share a link / description?
- Bombthecat 5y agoIota, nano, algorand kinda cardano.
- JohnJamesRambo 5y agoIt’s all moot. ETH 2.0 is coming June and it uses proof of stake which uses a tiny fraction of what proof of work uses. All things like this article should do is make you invest in proof of stake coins because they are the future. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_stake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_stake
- ognarb 5y agoI'm hearing about eth moving to PoS since years now. It won't happen.
- dlubarov 5y agoIt's been slow, but progress is happening. There's already ~$28 billion worth of ETH staked on the beacon chain. Most of the engineering work for the merge has already happened. A post-merge testnet (Kintsugi) was launched a few weeks ago. If you look at the mainnet readiness checklist [1], the remaining work is largely testing and documentation. Hard to imagine how it could not happen at this point. [1] https://github.com/ethereum/pm/blob/master/Merge/mainnet-readiness.md https://github.com/ethereum/pm/blob/master/Merge/mainnet-rea...
- eli 5y agoHasn't that been a few months from launch since 2019?
- TimJRobinson 5y agoIt's actually running on a testnet now. Just ironing out bugs before release.
- viraptor 5y agoPeople were a bit eager with the announcements, but the real progress is there. A few steps big steps were finished last year and now the big merge is scheduled for 22. https://ethereum.org/en/eth2/ https://ethereum.org/en/eth2/
- 5y ago
- phasnox 5y agoBitpay stagnated because it is a known bad service. You also have the rise of BTCPay Server and lightning.
- acdha 5y ago> what if crypto becomes anathema? What if accepting crypto or holding crypto starts become so closely associated with directly causing climate change, that no company is going to want to be openly associated with crypto, NFTs, etc due to the negative association? This is how the current wave of “web3” marketing started: everyone in cryptocurrency saw the bad reputation building and, being keenly aware that the only value was what you could find a buyer for, started hawking “web3 and pumping up things like NFTs trying to find new reasons for people to put real money into the system.
- tshaddox 5y agoDo you have any evidence or even anecdotes indicating this is the case? From everything I’ve seen, Web3 hype is from the same people who are still excited about all crypto stuff.
- codexon 5y agoI've always tried to state the problems with crypto here every time it comes up, but there is such a huge incentive for the people invested in crypto to pump it, that every year the number of crypto pumpers grows more numerous than people like me. There really is a place for a decentralized currency to replace paypal, but none of the cryptos live up to it. In fact I just tried using crypto again a few days ago and it was a terrible experience just like it was 10 years ago. My bitcoin transaction took over 30 minutes to verify so I tried changing to ethereum, and the transaction fee there is $8...
- TimJRobinson 5y agoYou're not going to get cheap transactions using Bitcoin or Ethereum directly. There are two wallets that are using newer tech to make cheap + fast transactions happen (while still being decentralized + secure): - Argent - Uses zkSync which is an L2 that compresses transactions and writes them to Ethereum - costs about 25c per transaction right now. - Dharma - Uses Polygon which is it's own chain that posts a hash of everything that happened to Ethereum at regular intervals - costs < 1c per transaction right now .
- arcticbull 5y agoTell me about it. USDC would make for a suitable candidate but of course, it's got $25 transaction fees on ETH. USDC-SPL maybe. The last time I tried to move some USDC-ETH, it was cheaper and more convenient to just have FTX wire me the money ($0) then wire it from my bank account to the recipient ($0). In reality though, a CBDC is probably the best way forward.
- plebianRube 5y agoMy email transfers regularly take 30-45 minutes and cost 1.00 My lightning transfers take 1 second and cost less than 1 penny. How can the cost of the transfer be less than the cost of the energy it is claimed it uses? I could never figure thst out.
- FabHK 5y agoA BTC transaction (on chain) brings the miner about $100, but most of that is from the coinbase mining reward, and a small part only from transaction fees (though that proportion will grow, presumably, as coinbase halves to zero). A good chunk of that will be energy costs, so an on-chain transaction will have significant energy costs (and probably way more than the current average fee of $2.65/tx, which, btw, is more than your "email transfer"). Off-chain transactions (like lightning, or from one exchange account to another at the same exchange, or from one account to another at the Salvadorean "wallet") can of course be quick and cheap, like any centralised banking.
- xunn0026 5y agoIf this ends the Eternal September we have in crypto it would be awesome. Crypto has too much marketing and eyes on it nowadays. It wouldn't hurt to turn in down a notch and keep working on it.
- vmception 5y agoThe blocks use the same energy whether they are full of transactions or not. So it has nothing to do with any organization encouraging transactions or not. It wouldn’t stop demand when considering a competing theory that all the transactions are speculation, so nobody is missing anything if one place wont accept donations, or that place using their platform to reverse policy on accepting crypto.
- gjs278 5y ago
- steelstraw 5y agoOnly Bitcoin and Eth1 (going away this year) could possibly have that association. You can't just discard an entire technology on this basis. The energy FUD won't stick beyond Bitcoin. Even that will go away when >90% of BTC mining is backed by clean energy. IIRC it's around 50% now. A single Google Search: 1,080 J A single Solana transaction: 1,837 J One eth2 transaction: 126,000 J Watching an hour of television on a 40 inch+ LCD TV: 540,000 J https://solana.com/news/solana-energy-usage-report-november-2021 https://solana.com/news/solana-energy-usage-report-november-...
- FabHK 5y agoOne Bitcoin transaction: 6,995,592,000 J DuckDuckGo claims to be carbon negative, btw: https://spreadprivacy.com/duckduckgo-goes-carbon-negative/ https://spreadprivacy.com/duckduckgo-goes-carbon-negative/
- metadat 5y ago> Only Bitcoin and Eth1 (going away this year) could possibly have that association. You can't just discard an entire technology on this basis. Are you sure? It's easy to send your message anonymously on the Hand, but I (and many others I've met out there in the real world) have zero interest in acquiring cryptocurrency, regardless of price or potential payoff. It seems more like the biggest tulip trading ponzi scheme in history. I do enjoy the entertainment it's provided me since I first encountered it in 2008. I'm not even rich... just disinterested in accumulating wealth in such a stupid manner which contributes no tangible benefit back to society.
- TimJRobinson 5y agoTBH you're probably right. Most people won't use cryptocurrency directly, it'll become AWS for the financial system and people will use it every day without realizing.
- colesantiago 5y agoSolana is an unstable centralised blockchain, majority owned by insiders, the same insiders hyping Solana for the NFT / Web3 garbage by the usual venture capitalists [0] Not good at all and looks mostly a pump and dump scam to me. The question is when will the party be over for most late comers to the Solana ponzi scheme. [0] https://cryptobriefing.com/how-decentralized-is-solana/ https://cryptobriefing.com/how-decentralized-is-solana/
- mrkramer 5y ago>Where it gets interesting is... what if crypto becomes anathema? What if accepting crypto or holding crypto starts become so closely associated with directly causing climate change, that no company is going to want to be openly associated with crypto, NFTs, etc due to the negative association? Then somebody should make crypto coin which is exclusively run on renewable energy so it would be considered moral accepting it as donation.
- ryan_lane 5y agoThat doesn't make it moral. Using all the available renewable energy to do useless computations, so that a very tiny minority of folks can use a "currency", means that energy isn't available for other uses. The prevalence of mining is causing energy providers to postpone the decommissioning of dirty plants to be able to meet peak load. There is no ethical use of proof of work cryptocurrency.
- mrkramer 5y ago>There is no ethical use of proof of work cryptocurrency. Is there ethical use of your idle CPU time?
- lostmsu 5y ago> holding crypto starts become so closely associated with directly causing climate change If that happens, I will be 100% sure what's in peoples heads!
- deltree7 5y agoIf you are banking on activism to stop/start anything, you are in for a huge disappointment. Profits / Self benefits are the most powerful, natural forces of the world. If you want any positive changes, you should harness them rather than fight it.
- meowface 5y ago>Where it gets interesting is... what if crypto becomes anathema? What if accepting crypto or holding crypto starts become so closely associated with directly causing climate change, that no company is going to want to be openly associated with crypto, NFTs, etc due to the negative association? I think this is going to increasingly become true, and I think it may lead to an interesting and divisive future. I suspect that if Ethereum actually does fully transition to Proof of Stake and the network doesn't suffer any serious issues for a year or two afterwards, its price may surpass Bitcoin's in a few years, and decisions to use/trade/hold Bitcoin vs. Ethereum will become exponentially more ethically, politically, culturally, and tribally charged than they are now. If that turns out to be the case, I also predict Bitcoin will one day move to a different consensus system that consumes less energy - but it may take a decade, several hard forks, and the (metaphorically) bloodiest internet flamewars and in-fights ever seen before it actually happens.
- Geee 5y agoIsn't it interesting that people who own Ethereum/crypto, are suddenly very ethical and concerned about Bitcoin's energy use? Everything else can consume energy ethically in this world, but using energy to run a decentralized monetary system? No, that must be very bad. Actually, people wouldn't choose something that doesn't work, just to signal their irrational ethics. Ethereum is not designed to be money, and it has huge array of problems in addition to using weak PoS consensus in the future. It is not properly decentralized, and therefore it can't deliver the promise of money that is equal for all people in the world. In my opinion, it's highly unethical to push Ethereum or other corruptible systems using this environmental narrative. Most people in Bitcoin, especially big investors, know the difference between these systems, and wouldn't use a PoS currency for any price. Mark my words, when Ethereum switches to PoS, its price will crash.
- notch656a 5y agoThe energy usage is mere propaganda spouted from individuals with A/C and heat cranked to 68-72 room temperature, way way inside the survival temperature band of their climate. They don't give a fuck about wasting some energy. Or they give a fuck and they do it anyway, prioritizing their own comforts while considering yours immoral.
- teaearlgraycold 5y agoNever underestimate the will of the masses to gamble their money on crypto. If anything we'll see a push to PoS blockchains or eth will actually switch to PoS.
- NicoJuicy 5y ago> we could see a major decline in mainstream support. Depends on the definition of mainstream support. I think that almost everyone that is vested/pro crypto hasc an interest in showing it here. Normally opinions here are similar to what tweakers ( a popular dutch site for tech enthusiasts) has. But with crypto there's a huge difference, eg. https://tweakers.net/nieuws/181606/tesla-stopt-met-bitcoin-als-betaalmiddel-na-49-dagen.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/181606/tesla-stopt-met-bitcoin-a... people dislike crypto there, with mentioned reasons. Even while the "investing" in crypto topic is pretty active: https://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/2056096 https://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/2056096 https://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_topics/129 https://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_topics/129 Note: main site for tech enthusiasts in Belgium+Netherlands. So for 28 million people.
- jasfi 5y agoCrypto is such a unique and compelling idea that it's not going anywhere. There will definitely be bumps along the way, but those are because of implementation issues. The only thing that can kill it is legislation.
- yellowapple 5y ago> The only thing that can kill it is legislation. And even that ain't a silver bullet.
- jkepler 5y ago> if the perception of crypto continues to be that it's a significant contributor to climate change -- regardless of how true that may be -- Therein lies a huge part of our societies problems : people base their beliefs on perceptions rather than digging into the truth of the claims they choose to follow. This creates division, strife, and carries huge social costs. And, if their claim is objectively wrong---i.e., if bitcoin is less harmful to the climate that the legacy monetary system (with its unbridled government spending and profligate international wars---what's the petrodollar system's true cost if we include all the oil tankers, office buildings, Brinks trucks and The US 7th fleet sitting in the Indian Ocean?), then choosing to ignore the truth could actively harm the climate more than choosing the better money.