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It allows both sides to negotiate. If you can convince them you’re worth a premium, you can command a premium relative to your new coworkers. But if you come a

by SllX 5y ago

It allows both sides to negotiate. If you can convince them you’re worth a premium, you can command a premium relative to your new coworkers. But if you come across looking like a bargain, employers will gladly pay a bargain to have you. What it boils down to is agency: standardized wages is just another way to fix the price of labor. People that believe they are worth more also believe they should get paid more, and they can use their individual agency to test that theory on an open job market.

dmead 5y ago
It could be agency... but it's just a circus. Do you do the same negotiation for a burger? maybe haggle with wendy's over the number of fries in your order?
- pacificmint 5y ago
  If the burger would cost $100k plus RSUs, yes I probably would negotiate for it.
  - filoleg 5y ago
    That + if the price of the burger is gonna be locked at that number for at least a year, and you would be locked-in from purchasing burgers anywhere else for that duration.
- slt2021 5y ago
  all expensive items in US have no fixed price and vary based on negotiation outcomes: car, housing. Negotiation is actually a sign of a healthy and competitive market, because there is always a spectrum of talent available, and demand for such talent. only monopolies can set fixed prices and it leads to inefficiencies
- SllX 5y ago
  Those aren’t equal. I “haggle” for burgers by choosing the restaurant that will serve me a burger I will be satisfied with for a price I will not be dissatisfied with. For me that’s a local chain that’s fairly consistent and fairly good for more than I will pay at McDonald’s for the same type of dish, but less than half the price of a “better” burger somewhere else. This “haggling” happens before I even enter the store, and influences my choice of stores, but at the end of the day we’re talking about dollars for burgers and fries. Prospective employer-employee negotiations are an exchange of time into work product in exchange for dollars and benefits measurable in dollars. Time is more valuable than dollars, and I want a good price for it, commiserate with what I think my time is worth, and informed by what I’ve been able to receive in compensation for it in the past because I’m taking a risk by taking the job, including leaving my old job. The employer is also taking a risk, onboarding new employees is costly in both time and money, and they want some idea that you will be worth the money they spent because they expect to make more money than they put into you, so if they can get away with paying you less, of course they will. That’s what makes this a market. I’d rather have a bad lunch I paid too much for and a good employer than a good lunch for a good price and a an employer that doesn’t pay me a compensation I am satisfied with.
- GrinningFool 5y ago
  I've never been equated to a burger before. That's novel.
HWR_14 5y ago
Wouldn't workers better be able to negotiate if salary information were public? Like if you think you're worth more than person X, and you know X is being paid Y, it gives you a floor to ask for.
- VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
  Why would I want people to know how much money I make.
  - compscistd 5y ago
    Why wouldn’t you? As a person with a job, are you ashamed of how much you make (either too much or too little)? Or is it a violation of your privacy? If you were a person looking for a new job, you want to know how much people are making in that company (or others in the same market) so you aren’t being undercut for the same job. No reason why my coworkers should make more or less than me if we have the same title. Making salary information public either through averages per title or ranges (upper and lower) should naturally even out the salaries per title. As things stand, some people are privileged in all sorts of ways when it comes to a company’s undisclosed salary ranges. For example, in my last role I had a friend in the company who could confirm two separate salaries for the role I was applying and I was offered 10% lower than those two salaries. I can ask for a 15% increase in my counteroffer and be confident this is a valid number. If I didn’t have friends who were in the industry that weren’t comfortable sharing salary ranges, I’d have to stick to the Levels FYI site, but my last company wasn’t on there. When I left, I learned new hires, who were new to tech, earned less than I did when I was at their title. It may be awkward socially to have people know how much I make (or even within a range) but it’s better than the economic disadvantages that unconnected applicants face in today’s job markets. Hope that offers some insight.
    - pc86 5y ago
      > No reason why my coworkers should make more or less than me if we have the same title. Of course there is. You wrote a book and they didn't. They have more relevant experience than you. The hiring manager really wanted you but you had a competing offer and they didn't. They are young and wanted more equity and you wanted higher cash. There are a whole host of reasons why people in the same title can make wildly different salaries - they're not all nefarious.
sanderjd 5y ago
Yep, this would be all fine and good if there were symmetrical information. But there isn't.
- strikelaserclaw 5y ago
  this, it is hard to negotiate with companies where you have no info on what they are paying others at your level

by SllX 5y ago

dmead 5y ago

It could be agency... but it's just a circus. Do you do the same negotiation for a burger? maybe haggle with wendy's over the number of fries in your order?

pacificmint 5y ago
If the burger would cost $100k plus RSUs, yes I probably would negotiate for it.
- filoleg 5y ago
  That + if the price of the burger is gonna be locked at that number for at least a year, and you would be locked-in from purchasing burgers anywhere else for that duration.
slt2021 5y ago
all expensive items in US have no fixed price and vary based on negotiation outcomes: car, housing. Negotiation is actually a sign of a healthy and competitive market, because there is always a spectrum of talent available, and demand for such talent. only monopolies can set fixed prices and it leads to inefficiencies
SllX 5y ago
Those aren’t equal. I “haggle” for burgers by choosing the restaurant that will serve me a burger I will be satisfied with for a price I will not be dissatisfied with. For me that’s a local chain that’s fairly consistent and fairly good for more than I will pay at McDonald’s for the same type of dish, but less than half the price of a “better” burger somewhere else. This “haggling” happens before I even enter the store, and influences my choice of stores, but at the end of the day we’re talking about dollars for burgers and fries. Prospective employer-employee negotiations are an exchange of time into work product in exchange for dollars and benefits measurable in dollars. Time is more valuable than dollars, and I want a good price for it, commiserate with what I think my time is worth, and informed by what I’ve been able to receive in compensation for it in the past because I’m taking a risk by taking the job, including leaving my old job. The employer is also taking a risk, onboarding new employees is costly in both time and money, and they want some idea that you will be worth the money they spent because they expect to make more money than they put into you, so if they can get away with paying you less, of course they will. That’s what makes this a market. I’d rather have a bad lunch I paid too much for and a good employer than a good lunch for a good price and a an employer that doesn’t pay me a compensation I am satisfied with.
GrinningFool 5y ago
I've never been equated to a burger before. That's novel.

HWR_14 5y ago

Wouldn't workers better be able to negotiate if salary information were public? Like if you think you're worth more than person X, and you know X is being paid Y, it gives you a floor to ask for.

VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
Why would I want people to know how much money I make.
- compscistd 5y ago
  Why wouldn’t you? As a person with a job, are you ashamed of how much you make (either too much or too little)? Or is it a violation of your privacy? If you were a person looking for a new job, you want to know how much people are making in that company (or others in the same market) so you aren’t being undercut for the same job. No reason why my coworkers should make more or less than me if we have the same title. Making salary information public either through averages per title or ranges (upper and lower) should naturally even out the salaries per title. As things stand, some people are privileged in all sorts of ways when it comes to a company’s undisclosed salary ranges. For example, in my last role I had a friend in the company who could confirm two separate salaries for the role I was applying and I was offered 10% lower than those two salaries. I can ask for a 15% increase in my counteroffer and be confident this is a valid number. If I didn’t have friends who were in the industry that weren’t comfortable sharing salary ranges, I’d have to stick to the Levels FYI site, but my last company wasn’t on there. When I left, I learned new hires, who were new to tech, earned less than I did when I was at their title. It may be awkward socially to have people know how much I make (or even within a range) but it’s better than the economic disadvantages that unconnected applicants face in today’s job markets. Hope that offers some insight.
  - pc86 5y ago
    > No reason why my coworkers should make more or less than me if we have the same title. Of course there is. You wrote a book and they didn't. They have more relevant experience than you. The hiring manager really wanted you but you had a competing offer and they didn't. They are young and wanted more equity and you wanted higher cash. There are a whole host of reasons why people in the same title can make wildly different salaries - they're not all nefarious.

sanderjd 5y ago

Yep, this would be all fine and good if there were symmetrical information. But there isn't.

strikelaserclaw 5y ago
this, it is hard to negotiate with companies where you have no info on what they are paying others at your level