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"Backed by the west" is a common conspiracy theory pushed by Russian government. You should be asking yourself who's benefiting. The west does not benefit from

"Backed by the west" is a common conspiracy theory pushed by Russian government. You should be asking yourself who's benefiting. The west does not benefit from anything related to those states, all oil they produce first flows through Russia. Russia benefits by having these states as basically feudal subservient states that they can extort for profit. (I will note that most western oil comes from the middle east with Europe also getting a decent amount from Russia.)

sam_lowry_ 5y ago
Kazakh elite keeps its money in western banks, flies western planes to western capitals and owns land and property in top western locations. Same for Russian elite. In the Cold War, dealing with Soviets was unthinkable. Now, the West is complacent, there is even a term for it, Schröderizatsiya. See this opinion piece by the former Estonian president [1]. [1] https://news.err.ee/1608362130/toomas-hendrik-ilves-alexei-navalny-and-the-west-s-schroderizatsiya https://news.err.ee/1608362130/toomas-hendrik-ilves-alexei-n...
- mlindner 5y ago
  > Kazakh elite keeps its money in western banks, flies western planes to western capitals and owns land and property in top western locations. Same for Russian elite. So does the Russian elite as you say, even Putin himself. The US's currency is the reserve currency of the world and the currency most commerce is done in so western banks are used. They also are much more stable than banks in their own countries where other elites could steal their money. This doesn't mean that the US or the west is somehow controlling their countries.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Don’t bother wasting your time. These trolls just want to make you hate yourself and your country. Of course it’s your fault comrade, if you didn’t buy caviar from Russia then they wouldn’t have to invade Ukraine to feed the workers who make the caviar. It’s always your fault nobody else’s. The goal with these sorts of comments is to try and get liberal democracies to stop engaging in the rest of the world. If you keep getting told it’s your fault eventually you say “fine I’m done” and then that’s when they win.
    - jessaustin 5y ago
      Is there some sense in which this is not a "conspiracy theory"?
      - spitfire 5y ago
        > Is there some sense in which this is not a "conspiracy theory Yes, in the sense that Aleksander Dugins foundations of geopolitics exists and is taught in military schools in Russia. It proposes - among other tactics, exactly this approach. Splitting hairs, gaslighting and exhaustion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
        jessaustin 5y ago
        You have colored in some details, but it's still a theory about a secret project of mysterious Russians and Russia sympathizers, only now they're allied with some Russian version of Alex Jones. It's worth noting that this special book was published during the reign of Yeltsin, a Clinton puppet installed and protected by various Western agencies. That could be a reason there is some consideration of similar actions in the opposite direction.
- mc32 5y ago
  What’s the alternative, Sanctions? What about China, should they be sanctioned too? [Many make the claim that sanctions mostly affect civilians so for example are against Iran Sanctions, etc.]
  - pjc50 5y ago
    Well, yes. Hence the Magnitsky Act. Although really the question of banking money from unacceptable foreigners is an old one, unresolved throughout the 20th century. It's too convenient for the West to really give up on, so a short list is maintained of the "definitely unacceptable", but there's no systematic criteria for what "unacceptable" really is. It's quite clear from the lack of UK response to the Salisbury poisonings that the UK is financially compromised into indifference, for example.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Yes some sanctions would be a good idea. We hoped that opening up trade with Russia and China would help them transform into free-market democracies. But that approach has failed so it's time to return to the Cold War policy of containment. Work with our asked to keep our adversaries as weak and isolated as possible. Besides sanctions, we should also seek to undermine and delegitimize those governments by supporting dissident movements and other covert actions.
  - everybodyknows 5y ago
    Better than sanctions: Enforcement of existing anti-money laundering laws. https://www.icij.org/investigations/panama-papers/new-icij-investigation-exposes-rogue-offshore-industry/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/panama-papers/new-icij-i... https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-international-anti-money-laundering-norms-are-frustrating-iran-sanctions-relief https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-international-anti-money-lau... Enforcement of course is a perpetual cat-and-mouse game in which the cats are underfunded and the mice have money to burn.
sausageman 5y ago
I went to school with a young kazak person I don't want to reveal to much about them, but let me just say this. Their parents had direct contact to the state and they were unaccountably rich went to an insanely expensive private school and owned various apartments all across Europe. The west DOES benefit from the corruption related to those states.
- fivea 5y ago
  > I went to school with a young kazak person (...) Their parents had direct contact to the state and they were unaccountably rich went to an insanely expensive private school and owned various apartments all across Europe. I don't understand what point you tried to make. Do you believe someone needs deep state contacts and government approval to purchase private property in a European country?
  - sausageman 5y ago
    No I'm saying our economies do benefit from people throwing money around. They buy citizenship they buy massive amounts of real estate they spend obscene amounts of money on nightlife, they buy luxury cars it's not just the Russia who benefits....
- mlindner 5y ago
  A couple of rich oligarchs playing around with their money in the west doesn't benefit the western economy much. The money they spend is nothing compared to the economies of those western countries. The ones who benefit from the corruption are the ones who have access to the tax stream.
  - janeroe 5y ago
    > A couple of rich oligarchs playing around with their money in the west doesn't benefit the western economy much. They don't have to, benefiting just the right people is enough. Schröder & friends say hi.
  - anticodon 5y ago
anticodon 5y ago
Where do you get your oil from? From the free democratic Saudi Arabia? West happily ignores any atrocities as long as the flow of resources is under control. Not only SA sells oil to US, but it also invests earned money into US government bonds. It's allows them to do whatever they want in their country, no matter how "undemocratic" it is. And the "free" press being oh-so-independent and honest, happily ignores that too, instead always pointing you to more convenient targets.

sam_lowry_ 5y ago

Kazakh elite keeps its money in western banks, flies western planes to western capitals and owns land and property in top western locations. Same for Russian elite. In the Cold War, dealing with Soviets was unthinkable. Now, the West is complacent, there is even a term for it, Schröderizatsiya. See this opinion piece by the former Estonian president [1]. [1] https://news.err.ee/1608362130/toomas-hendrik-ilves-alexei-navalny-and-the-west-s-schroderizatsiya https://news.err.ee/1608362130/toomas-hendrik-ilves-alexei-n...

mlindner 5y ago
> Kazakh elite keeps its money in western banks, flies western planes to western capitals and owns land and property in top western locations. Same for Russian elite. So does the Russian elite as you say, even Putin himself. The US's currency is the reserve currency of the world and the currency most commerce is done in so western banks are used. They also are much more stable than banks in their own countries where other elites could steal their money. This doesn't mean that the US or the west is somehow controlling their countries.
- ericmay 5y ago
  Don’t bother wasting your time. These trolls just want to make you hate yourself and your country. Of course it’s your fault comrade, if you didn’t buy caviar from Russia then they wouldn’t have to invade Ukraine to feed the workers who make the caviar. It’s always your fault nobody else’s. The goal with these sorts of comments is to try and get liberal democracies to stop engaging in the rest of the world. If you keep getting told it’s your fault eventually you say “fine I’m done” and then that’s when they win.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    Is there some sense in which this is not a "conspiracy theory"?
    - spitfire 5y ago
      > Is there some sense in which this is not a "conspiracy theory Yes, in the sense that Aleksander Dugins foundations of geopolitics exists and is taught in military schools in Russia. It proposes - among other tactics, exactly this approach. Splitting hairs, gaslighting and exhaustion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
      - jessaustin 5y ago
        You have colored in some details, but it's still a theory about a secret project of mysterious Russians and Russia sympathizers, only now they're allied with some Russian version of Alex Jones. It's worth noting that this special book was published during the reign of Yeltsin, a Clinton puppet installed and protected by various Western agencies. That could be a reason there is some consideration of similar actions in the opposite direction.
mc32 5y ago
What’s the alternative, Sanctions? What about China, should they be sanctioned too? [Many make the claim that sanctions mostly affect civilians so for example are against Iran Sanctions, etc.]
- pjc50 5y ago
  Well, yes. Hence the Magnitsky Act. Although really the question of banking money from unacceptable foreigners is an old one, unresolved throughout the 20th century. It's too convenient for the West to really give up on, so a short list is maintained of the "definitely unacceptable", but there's no systematic criteria for what "unacceptable" really is. It's quite clear from the lack of UK response to the Salisbury poisonings that the UK is financially compromised into indifference, for example.
- nradov 5y ago
  Yes some sanctions would be a good idea. We hoped that opening up trade with Russia and China would help them transform into free-market democracies. But that approach has failed so it's time to return to the Cold War policy of containment. Work with our asked to keep our adversaries as weak and isolated as possible. Besides sanctions, we should also seek to undermine and delegitimize those governments by supporting dissident movements and other covert actions.
- everybodyknows 5y ago
  Better than sanctions: Enforcement of existing anti-money laundering laws. https://www.icij.org/investigations/panama-papers/new-icij-investigation-exposes-rogue-offshore-industry/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/panama-papers/new-icij-i... https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-international-anti-money-laundering-norms-are-frustrating-iran-sanctions-relief https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-international-anti-money-lau... Enforcement of course is a perpetual cat-and-mouse game in which the cats are underfunded and the mice have money to burn.

sausageman 5y ago

I went to school with a young kazak person I don't want to reveal to much about them, but let me just say this. Their parents had direct contact to the state and they were unaccountably rich went to an insanely expensive private school and owned various apartments all across Europe. The west DOES benefit from the corruption related to those states.

fivea 5y ago
> I went to school with a young kazak person (...) Their parents had direct contact to the state and they were unaccountably rich went to an insanely expensive private school and owned various apartments all across Europe. I don't understand what point you tried to make. Do you believe someone needs deep state contacts and government approval to purchase private property in a European country?
- sausageman 5y ago
  No I'm saying our economies do benefit from people throwing money around. They buy citizenship they buy massive amounts of real estate they spend obscene amounts of money on nightlife, they buy luxury cars it's not just the Russia who benefits....
mlindner 5y ago
A couple of rich oligarchs playing around with their money in the west doesn't benefit the western economy much. The money they spend is nothing compared to the economies of those western countries. The ones who benefit from the corruption are the ones who have access to the tax stream.
- janeroe 5y ago
  > A couple of rich oligarchs playing around with their money in the west doesn't benefit the western economy much. They don't have to, benefiting just the right people is enough. Schröder & friends say hi.
- anticodon 5y ago

anticodon 5y ago

Where do you get your oil from? From the free democratic Saudi Arabia? West happily ignores any atrocities as long as the flow of resources is under control. Not only SA sells oil to US, but it also invests earned money into US government bonds. It's allows them to do whatever they want in their country, no matter how "undemocratic" it is. And the "free" press being oh-so-independent and honest, happily ignores that too, instead always pointing you to more convenient targets.