4 ms·

Maybe you can help me here. My reading of the situation is that it was an attempted revolution against a dictator after he made a devastating unilateral decisio

by ilaksh 5y ago

Maybe you can help me here. My reading of the situation is that it was an attempted revolution against a dictator after he made a devastating unilateral decision to raise prices for a critical fuel. Am I missing something?

sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
THe prices were still very low. And the decision was almost immediately reversed. Any economical problem can't justify violent uprising with takeover of an airport and decapitating of police officers, etc. etc. Never.
- janeroe 5y ago
  Our only source for "decapitation of police officers" are Russian telegram accounts which, there is no question, are 100% trustworthy (they are not; what happened to that poor "little boy in underwear crucified in Ukraine" that never existed). On the other hand, we've got plenty of evidence of police shooting protesters, including in the head. I'm somehow sure relatives of the murdered are not OK with that. I wouldn't even be surprised if they demanded revenge and acted on it (family means more in that part of the world and it's way bigger, too).
  - sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
    No, it is the official Kazakhstan source, not Russian telegram accounts. The uprising is very vioulent without any doubts. There are a lot of sources to confirm captures of government buildings and posession of arms. Speaking of Ukraine, do you remember a "burned AC unit" in Lugansk? That was not media, that was official Ukrainian statement.
    - janeroe 5y ago
      > No, it is the official Kazakhstan source Which source? The one that requested Russian intervention? Why there are lots of videos of protests, shootings, killings by the Kazakh army, and looting by unidentified people but only words of the interested party for this one? I don't remember the "AC unit" but I do remember Russian media's "100% sure version of 2 Ukraine planes downing the Netherlands' jet" a few years ago (with interviews of "experts" all over the place). That was their position for a long time (maybe half a year, until they shamelessly changed it to "Ukraine BUKs did it"). The "beheading story" seems like a fairy tale from the same authors.
      - sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
        You don't remember the AC unit? Really? You can start from here: https://www.unian.net/politics/924578-luganskie-terroristyi-pyitayas-sbit-ukrainskiy-samolet-popali-v-zdanie-oga.html https://www.unian.net/politics/924578-luganskie-terroristyi-... and go on to read all the reactions of Ukrainian officials from this moment and on. Please do so. It's never too late to do. BTW, it has nothing to do with Kazakhstan's legitimate goverment, which is free to request military assistance from an organization (not just from Russia, if it matters).
        janeroe 5y ago
        sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
        You better answer your own question. This is a very bad comment you've made, both offending and insulting, at the same time completely offtopic. I'm flagging it.
NoPie 5y ago
The raise of fuel prices was an immediate cause but it probably was long burning dissatisfaction with the economic hardships of the masses vs. prosperous kleptocratic elite. On the other hand it seems that the economy of Kazakhstan was one of the best among other stans. It is possible that prolonged covid restrictions also played the role.
- dandanua 5y ago
  No no no, it's all the war between US and Russia, people are just dust, they can only be manipulated! /s (this is what every russian bot is saying)
  - NoOn3 5y ago
    You're right about something. But civil and peaceful protests cannot be so well organized and take place so quickly and occupy so many significant places. It looks too organized and therefore suspicious. Perhaps people are dissatisfied with the authorities and living conditions, but perhaps someone is trying to use the protests to their advantage and manage them.
    - dandanua 5y ago
      Fire doesn't need any organization. It just needs oxygen and a spark. And I don't see how these protests are "well organized". People are just running, burning, and disabling government buildings. It's just like fire to me.
    - vintermann 5y ago
      The US does that sort of thing, in general. But so far, the US hasn't been terribly subtle about it. Usually when the US government wants to get rid of a government, you'll know it (if you pay attention). Where are the "National Endowment for Democracy"-funded front groups? Where's the immediate condemnation of the couped leader?
      - NoOn3 5y ago
sAbakumoff 5y ago
Based on what independent media report, my understanding is the same. Protests began after 2x gas prices surge. Local law enforcement was not able and/or was not willing to quell protesters. The president of Kazakstan claimed that protests are "terrorist attacks that sponsored and organized by foreign actors" and asked Putin and co. for military help.
- gnull 5y ago
  Yes, the "foreign actors" part is an obvious lie to justify the Russia's help.
gnull 5y ago
The fuel prices caused protests in one region. The others joined in solidarity. But after seeing how much support the protests have, more people started joining and the protest became political, demanding to change the regime. In Almaty, the protests got violent with killings and mass looting. A few other cities saw looting and destruction of ex-president's statues, but most of Kazakhstan was peaceful, including the place where the original gas-price protests started. The violence part does not represent the sentiment of the majority, I would bet, it's something organized; I don't know by whom and for what reason.
- reducesuffering 5y ago
  Another commenter mentioned that due to recent rising gas prices, it's become very profitable for smugglers to transport LPG across the border to Kyrgyzstan and China, selling for up to 3x the price (buy at subsidized Kazakh prices, sell at market rate). This black market is so profitable for the usually low-income Kazakhs, that organized crime has sprung up around it (a la Al Capone). The government decreased the subsidies due to this discrepancy, and organized crime around Almaty is the one encouraging and enflaming the protests to ensure their profitable smuggling.
- anonair 5y ago
  Especially that there is a clear pattern of looted and untouched property (if you look closely to the property owner).
  - gnull 5y ago
    Oh, really? What's the pattern? (I'm not in Almaty, so I can't see it myself.)

by ilaksh 5y ago

sedan_baklazhan 5y ago

THe prices were still very low. And the decision was almost immediately reversed. Any economical problem can't justify violent uprising with takeover of an airport and decapitating of police officers, etc. etc. Never.

janeroe 5y ago
Our only source for "decapitation of police officers" are Russian telegram accounts which, there is no question, are 100% trustworthy (they are not; what happened to that poor "little boy in underwear crucified in Ukraine" that never existed). On the other hand, we've got plenty of evidence of police shooting protesters, including in the head. I'm somehow sure relatives of the murdered are not OK with that. I wouldn't even be surprised if they demanded revenge and acted on it (family means more in that part of the world and it's way bigger, too).
- sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
  No, it is the official Kazakhstan source, not Russian telegram accounts. The uprising is very vioulent without any doubts. There are a lot of sources to confirm captures of government buildings and posession of arms. Speaking of Ukraine, do you remember a "burned AC unit" in Lugansk? That was not media, that was official Ukrainian statement.
  - janeroe 5y ago
    > No, it is the official Kazakhstan source Which source? The one that requested Russian intervention? Why there are lots of videos of protests, shootings, killings by the Kazakh army, and looting by unidentified people but only words of the interested party for this one? I don't remember the "AC unit" but I do remember Russian media's "100% sure version of 2 Ukraine planes downing the Netherlands' jet" a few years ago (with interviews of "experts" all over the place). That was their position for a long time (maybe half a year, until they shamelessly changed it to "Ukraine BUKs did it"). The "beheading story" seems like a fairy tale from the same authors.
    - sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
      You don't remember the AC unit? Really? You can start from here: https://www.unian.net/politics/924578-luganskie-terroristyi-pyitayas-sbit-ukrainskiy-samolet-popali-v-zdanie-oga.html https://www.unian.net/politics/924578-luganskie-terroristyi-... and go on to read all the reactions of Ukrainian officials from this moment and on. Please do so. It's never too late to do. BTW, it has nothing to do with Kazakhstan's legitimate goverment, which is free to request military assistance from an organization (not just from Russia, if it matters).
      - janeroe 5y ago
        sedan_baklazhan 5y ago
        You better answer your own question. This is a very bad comment you've made, both offending and insulting, at the same time completely offtopic. I'm flagging it.

NoPie 5y ago

The raise of fuel prices was an immediate cause but it probably was long burning dissatisfaction with the economic hardships of the masses vs. prosperous kleptocratic elite. On the other hand it seems that the economy of Kazakhstan was one of the best among other stans. It is possible that prolonged covid restrictions also played the role.

dandanua 5y ago
No no no, it's all the war between US and Russia, people are just dust, they can only be manipulated! /s (this is what every russian bot is saying)
- NoOn3 5y ago
  You're right about something. But civil and peaceful protests cannot be so well organized and take place so quickly and occupy so many significant places. It looks too organized and therefore suspicious. Perhaps people are dissatisfied with the authorities and living conditions, but perhaps someone is trying to use the protests to their advantage and manage them.
  - dandanua 5y ago
    Fire doesn't need any organization. It just needs oxygen and a spark. And I don't see how these protests are "well organized". People are just running, burning, and disabling government buildings. It's just like fire to me.
  - vintermann 5y ago
    The US does that sort of thing, in general. But so far, the US hasn't been terribly subtle about it. Usually when the US government wants to get rid of a government, you'll know it (if you pay attention). Where are the "National Endowment for Democracy"-funded front groups? Where's the immediate condemnation of the couped leader?
    - NoOn3 5y ago

sAbakumoff 5y ago

Based on what independent media report, my understanding is the same. Protests began after 2x gas prices surge. Local law enforcement was not able and/or was not willing to quell protesters. The president of Kazakstan claimed that protests are "terrorist attacks that sponsored and organized by foreign actors" and asked Putin and co. for military help.

gnull 5y ago
Yes, the "foreign actors" part is an obvious lie to justify the Russia's help.

gnull 5y ago

The fuel prices caused protests in one region. The others joined in solidarity. But after seeing how much support the protests have, more people started joining and the protest became political, demanding to change the regime. In Almaty, the protests got violent with killings and mass looting. A few other cities saw looting and destruction of ex-president's statues, but most of Kazakhstan was peaceful, including the place where the original gas-price protests started. The violence part does not represent the sentiment of the majority, I would bet, it's something organized; I don't know by whom and for what reason.

reducesuffering 5y ago
Another commenter mentioned that due to recent rising gas prices, it's become very profitable for smugglers to transport LPG across the border to Kyrgyzstan and China, selling for up to 3x the price (buy at subsidized Kazakh prices, sell at market rate). This black market is so profitable for the usually low-income Kazakhs, that organized crime has sprung up around it (a la Al Capone). The government decreased the subsidies due to this discrepancy, and organized crime around Almaty is the one encouraging and enflaming the protests to ensure their profitable smuggling.
anonair 5y ago
Especially that there is a clear pattern of looted and untouched property (if you look closely to the property owner).
- gnull 5y ago
  Oh, really? What's the pattern? (I'm not in Almaty, so I can't see it myself.)