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Drone carrying a defibrillator saves its first heart attack patient in Sweden
- jcun4128 5y agoImagine it's on its way and then someone with better health insurance outbids you, flies a different direction last moment.
- lostlogin 5y agoThe service could make more money by broadcasting the footage and selling adverts. Successful CPR would be worth more to advertisers of course, but deaths also require a range of goods and services. Entirely sarcastic, but…
- Symmetry 5y agoEven in a country with a medical payment system as terrible as the US insurance is only a factor after an emergency, not during one. A homeless bum collapsing with a heart attack outside a hospital and they'll treat him just as well as Bill Gates. Now, outside an emergency like with followups after your heart is beating again this is a huge difference and going into collections after you can't pay is Not Fun. But lets not pretend the system is worse than it is.
- shmerl 5y agoWe regret to inform you that your Trauma Team policy has expired due to lack of payment. Please remember to activate your card immediately, so we may continue to keep you healthy and safe in life's most dangerous moments. You can't afford to hesitate when your livelihood is at stake. Trauma Team
- Dah00n 5y agoNot likely in Sweden but in the US, well...
- galangalalgol 5y agoOrder 66
- teruakohatu 5y agoOr more likely two drones crash trying to put compete each other to deliver a service with an insanely high charge rate.
- Symmetry 5y agoYeah, that is something that could go wrong in the US system.
- Kiro 5y agoImagine living in a country where you rely on health insurance to get emergency treatment.
- khazhoux 5y ago... and where your health insurance is more-or-less tied to your employment status.
- bhelkey 5y agoIs there a specific country you are referencing?
- cultofmetatron 5y agopretty sure he's referring to the united states. The situation here is pretty horrific if you aren't privileged with a high paying job. There's a large part of the workforce holding onto shit jobs because they need the medical benefits. Dental is even worse. its cheaper for me to fly to latin america, get some dental work done and enjoy a month long vacation than to get the same procedures done in the united states.
- bhelkey 5y ago> Imagine living in a country where you rely on health insurance to get emergency treatment. Since Emergency Medical Treatment & Labor Act (EMTALA) in 1986, hospitals in the US MUST provide emergency treatment regardless of ability to pay. If you go into labor, US hospitals will help you deliver. Even if you can't pay. There are real downsides to the US medical system but this isn't one of them.
- cultofmetatron 5y agoYea so you then end up on the street when you can't pay those bills and go bankrupt. Either way, my point stands that a lot of people are slaves to their employer for need of health insurance. Furthermore, proactive visits to the doctor aren't "emergencies." Prenatal checkups aren't either. Mom going into labor is not a good time for the doctors to find out the baby is coming in the wrong way or its head is stuck in her pelvis. I'm tired of people making excuses for the shit-show that is healthcare in the US. It only looks good if you're coming from the third world.
- belter 5y ago"How to Use an AED" https://youtu.be/7ukk5hOV8e0 https://youtu.be/7ukk5hOV8e0
- Zigurd 5y agoGood AEDs can be had for under US$2000. All offices should have one.
- 83 5y agoYou say that, but the batteries have an expiration date and cost a significant portion of that $2000 which adds up. My very rural hometown (midwest US) is ending it's volunteer ambulance/first responder service in no small part due to these costs. I would argue having an ambulance without a defib is better than no ambulance, but laws don't care.
- Zigurd 5y agoFor Philips, $175 every 4 years, for the batteries. Pads are $70 every 2 years: https://www.aed.com/blog/do-aed-batteries-and-pads-expire https://www.aed.com/blog/do-aed-batteries-and-pads-expire I'd take expired batteries and pads over no AED.
- infinet 5y agoZOLL AED uses ten Type 123 Lithium batteries. It's a consumer grade battery commonly see in camera flashlight. Cost around $30 to replace if buy from Amazon. The battery's shelf life is usually in the range of several years, even with the regular AED self-testing.
- jeffrallen 5y agoThis is wonderful, and I also wonder how it compares cost-wise to maintaining AEDs in a distributed fashion. I know where my nearest defib is, and I know roughly how much it cost to install (Chf 2000) and maintain (Chf 200 / yr). What I don't know is how many fixed points like that could be replaced by one drone, even if it cost a lot more. Also, most places in my village, it would be a 5 minute trip from my house to a patient. If I was dispatched towards a patient, would the AED arrive on their driveway before/with me? So many questions.
- exhilaration 5y agoSo can anyone recommend a defibrillator we might buy for a local community center? I looked in this thread for Amazon links but didn't find anything.
- jeffrallen 5y agoThey are hardwired, to stay on trickle charge. And they need to be serviced once a year (check battery, check that the pads are not expired). So your best bet is to call the phone number on your fire extinguisher, which also needs yearly inspections.
- stripline 5y ago> In a four-month pilot study testing the EMADE program, the service got 14 heart attack alerts that would be eligible for drones. Drones took off in 12 of those cases, and 11 successfully delivered the defibrillators. Seven of those defibrillators were delivered before the ambulance arrived. So if this is the first patient saved does that mean all 11 people that were delivered defibrillators in the pilot study died?
- tialaramex 5y agoMaybe, as it says, "The survival rate is about 10%" even though large numbers of people experience cardiac arrest in a clinical setting where they had defibrillators for years. Lots of Cardiac Arrest incidents aren't survivable, if your heart actually stopped they can't do anything about that. But without measuring (the first step the AED takes) you can't tell whether the heart is stopped or merely stuck twitching and not pumping blood, in the latter case the defibrillator may fix that, hence the name.
- LorenPechtel 5y ago*Most* attempts fail even in the hospital.
- pmdulaney 5y agoWhat a brilliant use for a drone! (And I'm using "brilliant" in the American sense, not the British one.)
- peakaboo 5y agoThis is what a sane world would use drones for, instead of killing and surveillance. It would be the number 1 thing I would invent drones for....helping people in numerous ways. Package delivery is another.
- xaduha 5y agoDrones are not ambulances, this is probably for rural or mountainous areas, better than nothing until help arrives. Smart watches calling emergency services for you based on sensors does happen already though.
- globalise83 5y agoI'm British, but not sure what the difference is in our version of the language :)
- pmdulaney 5y agoFrom watching British television, at least, I gather that "Brilliant!" usually is akin to American "Cool!" or "That's great!". On the other hand, in the US we would use "brilliant" to describe Albert Einstein (or someone else who is exceptionally intelligent). I think there's a bit of a nuanced difference in how we use the word "clever" as well. Where you would call someone clever, we would usually say he is smart (or maybe brilliant, if smart enough). "Clever" in the US often has a slightly derogatory sense to it. Someone who is good at solving a Rubik's cube is clever. Yes, it takes a certain intelligence but of a gimmicky sort.
- globalise83 5y agoI would say that in the UK we use both, with a different meaning according to context. But yes I agree that "Brilliant!", "Super!", and "Fab!" are all British ways of saying the same thing.
- andylynch 5y agoThree minutes is really impressive! We have them on every floor at work and still wouldn’t be much quicker.
- tmikaeld 5y agoDoctor on his way to work doing AED and CPR, plus a drone, helped save the mans life.
- user-the-name 5y agoAnyone can do CPR and used an AED. If there's a doctor around let him do it, but if not, it's up to you. Make sure you are ready for it. Take a course if you get the chance, but if not, just read up on the basics of doing CPR and be aware that the AED will talk you through it and you are allowed an encouraged to use it.
- bashwizard 5y agoNext up: Trauma Team.
- xaduha 5y agoAEDs cost too much, that's the real problem here.
- progbits 5y agoYup. I wish these were required in every business and public space, similar to fire extinguishers. Or even in every car, part of the mandatory first aid kit (I'm talking Europe here). I think this is a chicken&egg problem: such requirement would be expensive initially but as the production of AED scaled up prices would drop. Obviously training is required too, I'm not sure how feasible it is to get large fraction of population trained...
- revax 5y ago>part of the mandatory first aid kit (I'm talking Europe here). In which country is it mandatory?
- gambiting 5y agoIn Poland you have to carry a first aid kit in your car(and actually know how to use it, it's part of mandatory driver training).
- progbits 5y agoIn many of them: [0] > In the following countries it is compulsory to carry a first aid kit in your car: > Albania, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Belgium (locally registered vehicles only), Bosnia & Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia (company cars only), Georgia, Germany (locally registered vehicles only), Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Turkey, Ukraine Check out the link, it also has color coded maps for first aid kit, fire extinguishers and high-vis jacket requirements. The first aid kit also usually means required first aid training as part of getting a driver's license. However I don't know if any countries require refresh sessions, so most people probably forget all except the basics. [0]: https://www.safetyfirstaid.co.uk/what-do-i-need-for-driving-in-europe/ https://www.safetyfirstaid.co.uk/what-do-i-need-for-driving-...
- timwaagh 5y agoI really think this kind of record shows its near pointless. It requires a doctor to be nearby and be aware of the incident in order to work. What are the chances of that? So far the record says 1 in 12 but I think they got lucky with that.
- pastage 5y agoOne in ten survives so if 2% extra survives because of this the it worth it. You are right to some extent the time limits are so extreme, 10 min after the heart attack and no one surives. According to the article the wife had not called emergancy services when he arrived. I wonder if that is the biggest problem, were we need to educate older people; call fast. https://lakartidningen.se/aktuellt/nyheter/2021/12/akutlakaren-mustafa-forst-att-radda-liv-vid-hjartstopp-med-dronarhjalp/ https://lakartidningen.se/aktuellt/nyheter/2021/12/akutlakar...
- andretti1977 5y agoIn italy ADE (in italian known as DAE) can be used by anybody: when you call emergency number, they ask you for the problem and if needed, operator suggests you to find an ade. If you can find one nearby, it's the device itself that instructs you how to apply it to the patient and how to use it, by speaking to you and it's super simple even for people that don't have any health or emergency support knowledge. The ade device monitors the patient and decides itself if it must release the charge shock or not (sorry for my english, hope you understand what i mean!). So this is not a useless device and being able to deliver an ade device faster even in places where it would took time to send an ambulance, it's significantly important and personally i'd be more happy to see flying drones equipped with ade than drones equipped with stuffs bought on amazon or somewhere else: that would be a good use of drone technology for our humanity
- schoen 5y agoBy the way, the English acronym order is "AED". defibrillatore automatico esterno → automated external defibrillator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_external_defibrillator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_external_defibrillat...
- d-d 5y agoIn a world full of defib drones swarming the skies surely donut sales would plummet.
- krn1p4n1c 5y agoThey're also looking at using them for transporting blood and organs between hospitals. Primarily being tested in western Sweden where it's mountainous enough that the straight line path the drone takes is considerably faster than the roads. Saw it on SVT Rapport a bit over a month ago. https://www.svd.se/dronare-transporterar-blodprover https://www.svd.se/dronare-transporterar-blodprover
- tempestn 5y ago> In a four-month pilot study testing the EMADE program, the service got 14 heart attack alerts that would be eligible for drones. Drones took off in 12 of those cases, and 11 successfully delivered the defibrillators. Seven of those defibrillators were delivered before the ambulance arrived. It doesn't say how many of the 7 were actually used. I imagine it's less likely if there doesn't happen to be a doctor on scene.
- jeffrallen 5y agoThe only difference between a medically trained person and an average bystander is that the medical person will be more used to assessing the situation, taking a decision and then intervening with the patient. You need no training to safely use an AED, though it will ask you to do chest compressions, and without training, the compressions are likely to be ineffective. Good compressions are surprisingly violent, and you'd never do that to someone unless you'd received training explaining why and how.
- dubbel 5y agoLess likely yes, but the publicly accessible defibrillators are pretty easy to use. They have big prints on them where to place the pads and after pressing the big green "On" button they start talking to you, explaining what to do. They are also included in the standard CPR first-aid courses nowadays.
- uf00lme 5y agoDefibrillators are now fairly fool proof and relatively easy to use, some of them even give you audio instructions on how to use them. I’m sure in most cases someone would be on the phone to an emergency medical expert. My guess is that they either didn’t save the patient or it wasn’t the right tool needed.
- KineticLensman 5y agoA couple of comments here show confusion about who can use defibrillators and in particular whether a doctor is required. I thought I'd add my personal experience. Specifically, I was defibrillated by bystanders when I had an out-of-hospital Ventricular Fibrillation episode. The staff at the UK building I was visiting had a defibrillator in their office and one of them had been on a training course. When I collapsed with no warning, there was (according to my wife) about a minute of confusion and then one of the staff grabbed the defibrillator and used it. The device itself plays recorded instructions and itself conducts diagnostic tests to determine whether or not it should be used. If it can't detect a treatable condition it doesn't just blat you with electricity for the sake of it. If it can treat you, then it gives clear instructions to the users and delivers shocks as required. In my case, the visitor centre staff had saved my life before the air ambulance arrived with trained medics. I was then flown to hospital where the critical cardiac care team confirmed that the bystanders had done exactly the right thing. They had also administered manual CPR which had kept my brain supplied with oxygen at the cost of two broken ribs. So here I am today writing this comment, thanks to the immediate availability of a defibrillator to bystanders. I was lucky. My VF episode happened just as I had entered the lobby of the building that coincidentally contained the defibrillator. If I had been a 20 minute walk away, I would be dead (or brain damaged). Would a drone-based defibrillator have saved my life? Don't know, but it would certainly improve my chances.
- matheusmoreira 5y agoDefibrilators really should be as ubiquitous as fire extinguishers!
- bodge5000 5y ago(Also in UK) unless I've just become so accustomed to seeing fire extinguishers that I ignore them, it seems they are, and in some cases even more so. The bus stop near me (not a building, just a metal shelter that maybe 5 people can fit under) has a defib. I think our offices used to as well.
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- sandos 5y agoThis is really, really weird. I have not, and I can not find, a reputable swedish news source covering this event? Why not? My bs meter is swinging wildly for some reason, this sounds like something that should have been widely reported...
- fumeux_fume 5y agoYep, my BS meter went flying. Mostly b/c key information about how the drone got there so quickly seems convenienly left out. Who called the emergency services (it wasn't the doctor)? Who contacted the service to send the drone? How did the drone get the exact location? Did the man just happen to live very close the where it was dispatched? And the fact that this is a press release should preclude it from being posted until an independent source verifies these details.
- sorenjan 5y agoHere's an alternative source in Swedish from the magazine Läkartidningen, a magazine by the Swedish Medical Association. https://lakartidningen.se/aktuellt/nyheter/2021/12/akutlakaren-mustafa-forst-att-radda-liv-vid-hjartstopp-med-dronarhjalp/ https://lakartidningen.se/aktuellt/nyheter/2021/12/akutlakar...
- kwhitefoot 5y agoStill not very convincing. I'd expect to find an article in Aftonbladet or similar. Strangely the article in Läkartidningen doesn't say when this incident occurred (just the middle of December). I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that everything written about it reads like promotional material rather than journalism.
- InfiniteRand 5y agoI have a funny defibrillator story that seems tangentially relevant so I thought I'd share it. I work for a company providing tools for safety-critical software, and so we were in discussions with a defibrillator company. They tried to argue that the defibrillator was not critical to the patient's life, and thus not subject to the relevant regulation, because the patient was already dead. No one bought this argument.
- KineticLensman 5y ago> we were in discussions with a defibrillator company. They tried to argue that the defibrillator was not critical to the patient's life, and thus not subject to the relevant regulation, because the patient was already dead I'm amazed that they would take this line. In many cases, a person's heart is still very active when it is shocked by the external defibrillator, and the person is still breathing. In some types of VF (see my comment elsewhere [0]), the problem is that the normal synchronised contraction of the cardiac muscle fibres has broken down, and the heart is thus quivering spasmodically, not cleanly pumping. To break this cycle, the defibrillator emits a massive shock that causes the muscle fibres to simultaneously go into their 'reset' phase, and the hope is that the heart's natural pace maker (the sino-atrial node) can then take back control. It's like the defibrillator is shouting "will you all shut the fuck up!" into a crowded auditorium full of people talking over each other rather than listening to a presenter. The defibrillator can't magically restart an insert dead body. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29821574#29837367 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29821574#29837367
- MauranKilom 5y agoHere's a Tom Scott video showing him (untrained) using one of the public AEDs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecVHYg4_vZw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecVHYg4_vZw (skip to min 3 for the action)
- traceroute66 5y agoIf you're going to post a YouTube video, IMHO the ONLY one to post is the famous BBC one with Chris Solomon.[1] TL;DR the BBC were in the right place at the right time. They were filming a documentary at a UK Air Ambulance office when the call taker had a cardiac arrest right there infront of them. They filmed the whole thing from start to finish and the guy gave his consent for them to release the video to the public. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0xWZ0aBGiI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0xWZ0aBGiI (The above video does say "edited" I don't know what they've edited out, so you might need to searching the web for the full version).
- avidphantasm 5y agoThis will be used by the CIA to give people heart attacks.
- perilunar 5y agoTFA: EMADE UAV delivers AED to MD doing CPR