5 ms·

I told Github management about the warrant. They did not report his location to the authorities and allowed him to work across state lines without any changes

by _o68p 5y ago

I told Github management about the warrant. They did not report his location to the authorities and allowed him to work across state lines without any changes to his employment agreement. I later asked Github HR what their policy on domestic violene is. This is what they sent. "Microsoft is committed to working with employees who are victims of domestic violence to prevent abuse from occurring in the workplace. Employees who are concerned about violence occurring in the workplace should immediately discuss their concerns with the Human Resources (HR) manager assigned to their group. The Microsoft Global Security group can provide guidelines and suggestions for increasing your safety in the workplace. Employees who are experiencing domestic violence outside of work are encouraged to seek assistance from Microsoft Cares. Microsoft Cares provides information regarding counseling and treatment resources. Perpetrators of domestic violence are also encouraged to seek assistance from Microsoft Cares. In some situations, employees may be eligible for time off work or other accommodation to manage medical issues and other negative consequences arising from domestic violence. Contact Benefits for more information." They officially accommodate "perpetrators of domestic violence" as Microsoft-owned Github.

mwint 5y ago
The Cares program is kind of the catch-all “I have a weird non-work issue I want help with”. You could ask HR/management what to do if you were under siege by zombie geese with chainsaws; they’d say to contact Cares. I’m guessing if this guy actually contacted Cares, they’d be more likely to help him turn himself in without violence, than to arrange a getaway to Cuba.
- microtherion 5y ago
  What these programs (I don't know about the Microsoft one specifically) also can do in this situation is refer employees to criminal lawyers (which are still paid by the employee). [I used such a referral once with a different employer to assist a family member in a legal matter (not involving interpersonal violence)].
jeegsy 5y ago
I told Github management about the warrant In what capacity? How did you come by your knowledge of the warrant?
- smt88 5y ago
  > In what capacity? How did you come by your knowledge of the warrant? Why would this matter at all? It seems like you're casting suspicion on [name redacted], although I can't begin to imagine what there is to be suspicious of.
  - jeegsy 5y ago
    > I can't begin to imagine what there is to be suspicious of. I can't either
- Mandatum 5y ago
  Publicly in November: [link redacted]
  - phkahler 5y ago
    Because HR, Legal, and the police all follow her on twitter? I dont know who the people tagged in the tweet are, but that still seems like a shitty way to report a problem.
    - betsydupuis 5y ago
      I spoke privately to Github management.
Mandatum 5y ago
Microsoft Cares? I think this confirms we're in some sort of inter-terrestrial waking-nightmare Office Space alternative universe variety show.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Many large enterprises have this sort of catch all employee support program.
wizzwizz4 5y ago
> They officially accommodate "perpetrators of domestic violence" as Microsoft-owned Github. In fairness, they do need procedures to accommodate such people. Your other employment-related rights don't end just because you've done bad stuff, and you need to treat perpetrators of domestic violence differently to ordinary employees (e.g. being really suspicious of them). I like bashing Microsoft as much as the next person, but I doubt this situation had much to do with Microsoft's domestic violence policies.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- sterlind 5y ago
  but it's not that he just did "bad stuff," it's that he's a fugitive from an outstanding warrant. legally I'm curious if MS would be liable for helping him stay employed as he evaded arrest.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - betsydupuis 5y ago
    In Texas, yes they are, but it's something that's rarely prosecuted.
scarby2 5y ago
> They officially accommodate "perpetrators of domestic violence" as Microsoft-owned Github. To take action against someone based on an unproven accusation of conduct outside of the workplace seems like the perfect way to get you sued. I'm sure if convicted he will become persona non grata. But until that point he should be entitled to the presumption of innocence.
- betsydupuis 5y ago
  Nope, perfectly legal to fire someone for an arrest in Texas where he resides.
tomp 5y ago
I don't understand why we expect private companies/hospitals/universities do the job of the police/courts. The justice system is complex for a reason (oversight, transparency, accountability, fairness, etc. - or at least that's the goal, however bad they are at achieving it, unaccountable private institutions will be even worse).
- betsydupuis 5y ago
  Because it is a danger to women to have to work with someone that even allegedly committed violence against women.
  - atty 5y ago
    No, it’s only a danger if that person actually commits violence. Let’s not advocate for punishing people based on hearsay. I like to think we have enough examples of that backfiring spectacularly throughout history to have learned our lesson by now.
    - betsydupuis 5y ago
      No, it's a danger because a person that commits violence against women is engaging in misogynistic behavior and can't be trusted to treat female subordinates and colleagues fairly. Furthermore, Alex was reported to Github HR by multiple people for verbal abuse and nothing was done about it under Nat Friedman's leadership.
      - atty 5y ago
        To be clear I’m not defending Alex in any way. I think it’s quite clear he should lose his job and probably be in jail, depending on the outcome of the evidence collection and eventual trial, of course. I was saying the blanket statement than the mere presence of any allegations of any form are enough to indicate a high probability of guilt, and we should therefore enforce punishment on an individual is dangerous. Historically, this sort of attitude has led to a lot of injustice. Black men being put in jail for crimes they never committed on the word of a white woman who was embarrassed to be caught in an affair, for instance. Taken to the extreme, it leads to things like witch hunts.
sterlind 5y ago
> Perpetrators of domestic violence are also encouraged to seek assistance from Microsoft Cares. definitely not what I expected to read, that's... huh. I'd expect MS would divulge his IP address from VPN logs if served by a warrant, to locate the fugitive. I wonder if this happened, and if not, what legal responsibilities or liabilities MS has to help or hinder outside warrant compliance, when the victim isn't an employee but the perp is. (I work for MS but not GitHub, I had no idea about any of this.)
- betsydupuis 5y ago
  That's what I would have expected, but they did not do that to my knowledge.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> They did not report his location to the authorities Nonreporting, whether or not one believes it is immoral, isn't the same thing as assistance in evading arrest. The government can conscript citizens into active assistance in enforcing the law, but issuing a warrant doesn't do that. Nonreporting is legal, assistance is a crime (“accessory after the fact” is the general term.)
- betsydupuis 5y ago
  It's literally a 3rd degree felony in the state of Texas. Texas Penal Code Sec. 38.05 Hindering Apprehension or Prosecution (a) A person commits an offense if, with intent to hinder the arrest, prosecution, conviction, or punishment of another for an offense or, with intent to hinder the arrest, detention, adjudication, or disposition of a child for engaging in delinquent conduct that violates a penal law of the state, or with intent to hinder the arrest of another under the authority of a warrant or capias, he: (1) harbors or conceals the other; (2) provides or aids in providing the other with any means of avoiding arrest or effecting escape; or (3) warns the other of impending discovery or apprehension. https://texas.public.law/statutes/tex._penal_code_section_38.05 https://texas.public.law/statutes/tex._penal_code_section_38...
  - tptacek 5y ago
    I'm sorry about what you went through with this person. This statute requires prosecutors to prove intent on behalf of Microsoft; it also requires active concealment, intentional aid in avoiding arrest, or warning (or "harboring", which would require Microsoft to actually provide physical shelter and concealment). Presumably the arrest warrant you're talking about is public; disclosing the existence of a public document seems unlikely to be prosecutable. I appreciate the rest of the details you've provided on the thread!
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > It's literally a 3rd degree felony in the state of Texas. No, nonreporting is not. Active concealment/assistance is, and you just quoted a long bit of statute that says exactly that.
kazinator 5y ago
> Perpetrators of domestic violence are also encouraged to seek assistance from Microsoft Cares That is a somewhat bizarre sentence that should be brought to the editorial attention of whoever wrote that. I don't think it's intended to support some of the kinds of interpretations that imagination might assign to it.

by _o68p 5y ago

mwint 5y ago

The Cares program is kind of the catch-all “I have a weird non-work issue I want help with”. You could ask HR/management what to do if you were under siege by zombie geese with chainsaws; they’d say to contact Cares. I’m guessing if this guy actually contacted Cares, they’d be more likely to help him turn himself in without violence, than to arrange a getaway to Cuba.

microtherion 5y ago
What these programs (I don't know about the Microsoft one specifically) also can do in this situation is refer employees to criminal lawyers (which are still paid by the employee). [I used such a referral once with a different employer to assist a family member in a legal matter (not involving interpersonal violence)].

jeegsy 5y ago

I told Github management about the warrant In what capacity? How did you come by your knowledge of the warrant?

smt88 5y ago
> In what capacity? How did you come by your knowledge of the warrant? Why would this matter at all? It seems like you're casting suspicion on [name redacted], although I can't begin to imagine what there is to be suspicious of.
- jeegsy 5y ago
  > I can't begin to imagine what there is to be suspicious of. I can't either
Mandatum 5y ago
Publicly in November: [link redacted]
- phkahler 5y ago
  Because HR, Legal, and the police all follow her on twitter? I dont know who the people tagged in the tweet are, but that still seems like a shitty way to report a problem.
  - betsydupuis 5y ago
    I spoke privately to Github management.

Mandatum 5y ago

Microsoft Cares? I think this confirms we're in some sort of inter-terrestrial waking-nightmare Office Space alternative universe variety show.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Many large enterprises have this sort of catch all employee support program.

wizzwizz4 5y ago

> They officially accommodate "perpetrators of domestic violence" as Microsoft-owned Github. In fairness, they do need procedures to accommodate such people. Your other employment-related rights don't end just because you've done bad stuff, and you need to treat perpetrators of domestic violence differently to ordinary employees (e.g. being really suspicious of them). I like bashing Microsoft as much as the next person, but I doubt this situation had much to do with Microsoft's domestic violence policies.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sterlind 5y ago
but it's not that he just did "bad stuff," it's that he's a fugitive from an outstanding warrant. legally I'm curious if MS would be liable for helping him stay employed as he evaded arrest.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- betsydupuis 5y ago
  In Texas, yes they are, but it's something that's rarely prosecuted.

scarby2 5y ago

> They officially accommodate "perpetrators of domestic violence" as Microsoft-owned Github. To take action against someone based on an unproven accusation of conduct outside of the workplace seems like the perfect way to get you sued. I'm sure if convicted he will become persona non grata. But until that point he should be entitled to the presumption of innocence.

betsydupuis 5y ago
Nope, perfectly legal to fire someone for an arrest in Texas where he resides.

tomp 5y ago

I don't understand why we expect private companies/hospitals/universities do the job of the police/courts. The justice system is complex for a reason (oversight, transparency, accountability, fairness, etc. - or at least that's the goal, however bad they are at achieving it, unaccountable private institutions will be even worse).

betsydupuis 5y ago
Because it is a danger to women to have to work with someone that even allegedly committed violence against women.
- atty 5y ago
  No, it’s only a danger if that person actually commits violence. Let’s not advocate for punishing people based on hearsay. I like to think we have enough examples of that backfiring spectacularly throughout history to have learned our lesson by now.
  - betsydupuis 5y ago
    No, it's a danger because a person that commits violence against women is engaging in misogynistic behavior and can't be trusted to treat female subordinates and colleagues fairly. Furthermore, Alex was reported to Github HR by multiple people for verbal abuse and nothing was done about it under Nat Friedman's leadership.
    - atty 5y ago
      To be clear I’m not defending Alex in any way. I think it’s quite clear he should lose his job and probably be in jail, depending on the outcome of the evidence collection and eventual trial, of course. I was saying the blanket statement than the mere presence of any allegations of any form are enough to indicate a high probability of guilt, and we should therefore enforce punishment on an individual is dangerous. Historically, this sort of attitude has led to a lot of injustice. Black men being put in jail for crimes they never committed on the word of a white woman who was embarrassed to be caught in an affair, for instance. Taken to the extreme, it leads to things like witch hunts.

sterlind 5y ago

> Perpetrators of domestic violence are also encouraged to seek assistance from Microsoft Cares. definitely not what I expected to read, that's... huh. I'd expect MS would divulge his IP address from VPN logs if served by a warrant, to locate the fugitive. I wonder if this happened, and if not, what legal responsibilities or liabilities MS has to help or hinder outside warrant compliance, when the victim isn't an employee but the perp is. (I work for MS but not GitHub, I had no idea about any of this.)

betsydupuis 5y ago
That's what I would have expected, but they did not do that to my knowledge.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> They did not report his location to the authorities Nonreporting, whether or not one believes it is immoral, isn't the same thing as assistance in evading arrest. The government can conscript citizens into active assistance in enforcing the law, but issuing a warrant doesn't do that. Nonreporting is legal, assistance is a crime (“accessory after the fact” is the general term.)

betsydupuis 5y ago
It's literally a 3rd degree felony in the state of Texas. Texas Penal Code Sec. 38.05 Hindering Apprehension or Prosecution (a) A person commits an offense if, with intent to hinder the arrest, prosecution, conviction, or punishment of another for an offense or, with intent to hinder the arrest, detention, adjudication, or disposition of a child for engaging in delinquent conduct that violates a penal law of the state, or with intent to hinder the arrest of another under the authority of a warrant or capias, he: (1) harbors or conceals the other; (2) provides or aids in providing the other with any means of avoiding arrest or effecting escape; or (3) warns the other of impending discovery or apprehension. https://texas.public.law/statutes/tex._penal_code_section_38.05 https://texas.public.law/statutes/tex._penal_code_section_38...
- tptacek 5y ago
  I'm sorry about what you went through with this person. This statute requires prosecutors to prove intent on behalf of Microsoft; it also requires active concealment, intentional aid in avoiding arrest, or warning (or "harboring", which would require Microsoft to actually provide physical shelter and concealment). Presumably the arrest warrant you're talking about is public; disclosing the existence of a public document seems unlikely to be prosecutable. I appreciate the rest of the details you've provided on the thread!
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > It's literally a 3rd degree felony in the state of Texas. No, nonreporting is not. Active concealment/assistance is, and you just quoted a long bit of statute that says exactly that.

kazinator 5y ago

> Perpetrators of domestic violence are also encouraged to seek assistance from Microsoft Cares That is a somewhat bizarre sentence that should be brought to the editorial attention of whoever wrote that. I don't think it's intended to support some of the kinds of interpretations that imagination might assign to it.