6 ms·

> I really don’t care if my hello world UI is 60MB to download lot of people cares, they may have a slow connection, must pay per MB and so on. There is no re

> I really don’t care if my hello world UI is 60MB to download lot of people cares, they may have a slow connection, must pay per MB and so on. There is no reason why hello world UI should be 60MB.

heurisko 5y ago
I can remember using 56k dialup and downloading ISOs around 650MB. A 60MB download would have been fine. Indeed, with the annoying habit of proprietary software to install "Download managers" that download the actual software, I would be happy for just a 60MB runtime for the actual program itself.
- pjerem 5y ago
  I'm not sure you really remember. With 56k dialup, downloading 650MB could easily take days. Downloading 1MB could have taken 3 to 4 minutes. 60MB, even today, is really big when you have to download it while boarding a train or with poor connectivity (even in rich countries, just being in a metallic building is enough for 60MB to be painful to download.
  - HatchedLake721 5y ago
    You download desktop apps while boarding a train?
  - heurisko 5y ago
    I remember leaving the computer on to download 650MB overnight, which used to be an ISO for an operating system. It was usually finished sometime the next day. And 60MB would have been a couple of hours, not bad to wait for some software. It wasn't prohibitive to do this. Indeed, I seem to be back at square one, as downloading a AAA game for me once again takes about a day.
    - liketochill 5y ago
      650,000 kb / 5 kb/s = 36 hours
    - projct 5y ago
      Add a little line noise for the average 30-70y/o house wiring and you get 43 hours for 33.6 or 50 hours for 28.8. It took running a brand new line in order for me to get 56k. So, the parent comment is accurate. It was absolutely prohibitive for the average person with a shared line, and the direct comparison to shared line today is a metered connection. Even in the US it can be as much as $30 per gigabyte which would make that 60MB download cost $1.80.
- int_19h 5y ago
  I also remember using 56k dialup, and we paid per minute. A 60 Mb download would take several hours.
nine_k 5y ago
While true, you pay the price to download a program once, but the price to run the program, every day.
- tekknik 5y ago
  But you don’t pay RAM usage fees.
  - cozzyd 5y ago
    Don't give them any ideas.
  - c-smile 5y ago
    You would be surprised but that is exactly what you do when you access VMs on clouds. To be short: if you can make your app less greedy - do it. In some cultures we have a concept of "engineering conscience" (ru: "инженерная совесть"). Are we loosing all that?
    - tekknik 5y ago
      Oh sure, not just VM, but in all rented server instances. But we’re talking about home machines here.
wokwokwok 5y ago
Yes, but this is my point. https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/discussions/3162 https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/discussions/3162 > FabianLars, 3 hours ago, Collaborator > ...for example my somewhat simple app uses ~120MB > But only ~5MB is the actual tauri/rust process, the rest is WebView2. So, if 60MB is a large download, surely a simple app using 120MB of ram is pretty outrageous too? > There is no reason why hello world UI should be 60MB. Absolutely, but you can't have everything. Fast. Small. Doesn't use any memory. Easy to develop for. Free. Consistent cross platform behaviour. You can't have them all. So... the question isn't "is 60MB ok?" The question is: What do you care about the most? Is it really the download size? It's not the download size for me.
- jen20 5y ago
  I’d encourage you to rethink whether the “all” you describe is desirable. I couldn’t care less whether an app is consistent across platforms - in fact I consider that a strict negative since apps should be consistent with the platform on which they are running not with themselves on other platforms.
  - phil294 5y ago
    I don't think that "consistent" always necessarily refers to pixel-perfect equality. When using this term in web dev, most would refer to browser standards as in spacing, layout, JS apis, availability of native elements etc. In this context, consistency is rather the opposite of negative. I don't think anyone really cares about how date picker looks on Firefox vs. on Chrome. Maybe you are referring to Gtk/Qt vs. win32 etc. with their integrations in the operating system. I agree that they look and feel the best for their respective OS, but eventually require you maintain multiple unrelated codebases. It is understandable and necessary for this approach to die. A middle ground would be best, say, Qt support on all existing platforms. Or more likely, prettier browser defaults for standard elements like lists and tables, with browsers themselves respecting the underlying OS theme. Probably never gonna happen...
    - jen20 5y ago
wolframhempel 5y ago
Arguably both Slack and Spotify (and Visual Studio?) have reached significant scale with Electron apps - so at the end of the day it seems to be less of an issue for end consumers.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- msbarnett 5y ago
  Spotify is built on Chromium Embedded Framework, not Electron. Common misunderstanding.
- hendersoon 5y ago
  Lots of things are popular, but that doesn't imply quality. McDonald's does not make the best hamburger in the world.

> I really don’t care if my hello world UI is 60MB to download lot of people cares, they may have a slow connection, must pay per MB and so on. There is no reason why hello world UI should be 60MB.

heurisko 5y ago

I can remember using 56k dialup and downloading ISOs around 650MB. A 60MB download would have been fine. Indeed, with the annoying habit of proprietary software to install "Download managers" that download the actual software, I would be happy for just a 60MB runtime for the actual program itself.

pjerem 5y ago
I'm not sure you really remember. With 56k dialup, downloading 650MB could easily take days. Downloading 1MB could have taken 3 to 4 minutes. 60MB, even today, is really big when you have to download it while boarding a train or with poor connectivity (even in rich countries, just being in a metallic building is enough for 60MB to be painful to download.
- HatchedLake721 5y ago
  You download desktop apps while boarding a train?
- heurisko 5y ago
  I remember leaving the computer on to download 650MB overnight, which used to be an ISO for an operating system. It was usually finished sometime the next day. And 60MB would have been a couple of hours, not bad to wait for some software. It wasn't prohibitive to do this. Indeed, I seem to be back at square one, as downloading a AAA game for me once again takes about a day.
  - liketochill 5y ago
    650,000 kb / 5 kb/s = 36 hours
  - projct 5y ago
    Add a little line noise for the average 30-70y/o house wiring and you get 43 hours for 33.6 or 50 hours for 28.8. It took running a brand new line in order for me to get 56k. So, the parent comment is accurate. It was absolutely prohibitive for the average person with a shared line, and the direct comparison to shared line today is a metered connection. Even in the US it can be as much as $30 per gigabyte which would make that 60MB download cost $1.80.
int_19h 5y ago
I also remember using 56k dialup, and we paid per minute. A 60 Mb download would take several hours.

nine_k 5y ago

While true, you pay the price to download a program once, but the price to run the program, every day.

tekknik 5y ago
But you don’t pay RAM usage fees.
- cozzyd 5y ago
  Don't give them any ideas.
- c-smile 5y ago
  You would be surprised but that is exactly what you do when you access VMs on clouds. To be short: if you can make your app less greedy - do it. In some cultures we have a concept of "engineering conscience" (ru: "инженерная совесть"). Are we loosing all that?
  - tekknik 5y ago
    Oh sure, not just VM, but in all rented server instances. But we’re talking about home machines here.

wokwokwok 5y ago

Yes, but this is my point. https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/discussions/3162 https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/discussions/3162 > FabianLars, 3 hours ago, Collaborator > ...for example my somewhat simple app uses ~120MB > But only ~5MB is the actual tauri/rust process, the rest is WebView2. So, if 60MB is a large download, surely a simple app using 120MB of ram is pretty outrageous too? > There is no reason why hello world UI should be 60MB. Absolutely, but you can't have everything. Fast. Small. Doesn't use any memory. Easy to develop for. Free. Consistent cross platform behaviour. You can't have them all. So... the question isn't "is 60MB ok?" The question is: What do you care about the most? Is it really the download size? It's not the download size for me.

jen20 5y ago
I’d encourage you to rethink whether the “all” you describe is desirable. I couldn’t care less whether an app is consistent across platforms - in fact I consider that a strict negative since apps should be consistent with the platform on which they are running not with themselves on other platforms.
- phil294 5y ago
  I don't think that "consistent" always necessarily refers to pixel-perfect equality. When using this term in web dev, most would refer to browser standards as in spacing, layout, JS apis, availability of native elements etc. In this context, consistency is rather the opposite of negative. I don't think anyone really cares about how date picker looks on Firefox vs. on Chrome. Maybe you are referring to Gtk/Qt vs. win32 etc. with their integrations in the operating system. I agree that they look and feel the best for their respective OS, but eventually require you maintain multiple unrelated codebases. It is understandable and necessary for this approach to die. A middle ground would be best, say, Qt support on all existing platforms. Or more likely, prettier browser defaults for standard elements like lists and tables, with browsers themselves respecting the underlying OS theme. Probably never gonna happen...
  - jen20 5y ago

wolframhempel 5y ago

Arguably both Slack and Spotify (and Visual Studio?) have reached significant scale with Electron apps - so at the end of the day it seems to be less of an issue for end consumers.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
msbarnett 5y ago
Spotify is built on Chromium Embedded Framework, not Electron. Common misunderstanding.
hendersoon 5y ago
Lots of things are popular, but that doesn't imply quality. McDonald's does not make the best hamburger in the world.