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I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The problem of low wages isn’t that your margins are low and you’ll have to increase price of a sandwich to pay peopl

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The problem of low wages isn’t that your margins are low and you’ll have to increase price of a sandwich to pay people enough. The real problem is restaurants artificially lowering prices of a sandwich by paying people less for decades to the point people don’t realize that eating out used to be expensive. All the full service restaurants in my small town still do well. The ones that don’t are the sandwich shops where you pay $14 for a cold sandwich. Eating out is expensive and should be expensive if you want businesses to sustain themselves when there’s turmoil in the industry.

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
> Eating out is expensive and should be expensive if you want businesses to sustain themselves when there’s turmoil in the industry. Why is it only expensive because there can be turmoil? Isn't it primarily expensive IFF labor is expensive?
vorpalhex 5y ago
The problem is that a lot of people are used to eating out being cheap. Kitchens have dwindled in size, as have the basic skills of grocery shopping and preparing meals. It might be longterm good for eating out to be expensive again (especially for waistlines) but it will come as a big shock and do short term harm.
- criddell 5y ago
  > Kitchens have dwindled in size Is that true? In a lot of new homes where I live the kitchens are one of the places the builders spend money. It's pretty common to see multiple ovens, a high end stove top, big dishwasher, gigantic refrigerator, etc...
  - maxsilver 5y ago
    > In a lot of new homes where I live the kitchens are one of the places the builders spend money. Regular people generally can't afford new homes. Working class professionals usually get shoved into apartments (usually small ones) with small kitchens in 5+1 buildings or renovated industrial buildings. Stuff like this is pretty common - https://images1.apartments.com/i2/5Wguguo1YZBzaUo30bfX2jUIY6wfpriwgayikEX-pXo/102/28grand-detroit-mi-building-photo.jpg?p=1 https://images1.apartments.com/i2/5Wguguo1YZBzaUo30bfX2jUIY6... or this one https://images1.apartments.com/i2/PuDTEuad8QYuGVJfUJAbGHCZISjR3khFzF3U_EJP7LU/102/philip-houze-detroit-mi-kitchen.jpg?p=1 https://images1.apartments.com/i2/PuDTEuad8QYuGVJfUJAbGHCZIS... It's not impossible to cook here, of course. But it's designed around the idea that most of your big meals will be "out" somewhere else.
    - ssharp 5y ago
      Were small apartments of yesteryear more generous with their kitchen sizes? The parent comment said kitchens are getting smaller and smaller but I'm not sure if that's actually true. I lived in quite a few houses (middle / lower-middle class) growing up and it seemed like the older homes all had much smaller kitchens than the ones that weren't as old. Maybe that is happening for apartments for singles and DINKs living in urban areas where your lifestyle may be shifting towards eating at restaurants more than at home, but especially for families with kids, the trend definitely seems to be larger kitchens and kitchens that are more integrated into the home.
      - zippzom 5y ago
        I live in a very old studio apartment (built in 1909) and it has a separate kitchen that is the size of the kitchen in most of my friends' single family homes. It is probably ~1/3rd the square footage of the entire apartment. Obviously that's just anecdotal but I do think that the kitchen used to be prioritized much more, at least in apartments.
  - dagw 5y ago
    Is that true? Certainly seems to be true here in Sweden. All new houses and apartments I've seen recently have tiny open plan kitchen with terrible layouts. It's clear that they layed out the rest of the house first and then just crammed in a kitchen in whatever space was left over.
- cafard 5y ago
  In the neighborhood where I live, most of the houses were build between the late 1920s and the late 1940s. Generally they had galley kitchens, for people who could afford the houses could afford cooks, and why use up space on the cook's area. Kitchen renovation probably came in on the second turnover, about 2000, when boomers etc. moved in.
steelstraw 5y ago
What this means in practice is that restaurants will become a luxury again. Is that a net good or bad?
kukx 5y ago
Why should everyone be paid a lot? Is everyone's labor really worth the same? Should not people be paid according to the value of their input? I am super fine with people charging me little for their services as long as they deem that it makes sense for them and the quality is acceptable. I want people that can provide great value for a fair price to outcompete others, because I want to promote them and hopefully they will develop and make economy a little bit better a little bit more efficient.
- zwkrt 5y ago
  Everyone should be paid enough to eat reasonable food. If you think this is already the case you live in a bubble.
newsbinator 5y ago
> Eating out is expensive and should be expensive if you want businesses to sustain themselves when there’s turmoil in the industry. Eating out shouldn't have to be more expensive than eating in. And in many countries it isn't. Restaurants benefit from scale that your kitchen doesn't. If you were feeding a family of 150, your per-meal price would crater. Of course a restaurant has to pay staff, so the numbers have to add up, but conceptually, there's no particular reason why a chicken sandwich at a restaurant should cost more than a chicken sandwich at home, as long as that restaurant is serving chicken sandwiches, chicken tacos, and chicken pasta all afternoon/evening. Granted during covid and shipping shortages all bets are off. And obviously even during non-covid times, restaurants can set their own prices, charge a 100x multiple for exclusivity, ambiance, etc. But fundamentally there's no obvious reason why getting food at a restaurant needs to cost more than getting food at home, while still making the restaurant a profit that lets them pay salaries and sustain their business.
- pempem 5y ago
  In which countries is it not cheaper to cook your own food than to buy it out? The only things I can think of are: - truly street food in areas like sinagpore or india which is not a sustainable every meal option for most digestive systems - island nations where you're comparing fresh produce to a prepared meal It should be and is cheaper to cook your own food. Purchases are limited to need, meals are usually a tiny percentage of the overall purchase, cost does not include: rent, talent, fixed costs such as kitchens/tables/plates/etc, healthcare, marketing, etc.
  - Dudelander 5y ago
    Mexico for one. It's typically cheaper to eat at a Taco restaurant then to buy your own at a grocery store. There are a lot of reasons for this, but the biggest is more limited selection, more efficient service and cheaper real estate. The real estate issue is not one that is easy to address, but the other issues are adjustable. It's silly to expect the government to bail out restaurants when they admit they can't even pay their employees a living wage. Regardless of what you think the government should do about helping poor people, it most certainly should not be guaranteeing small business owners a 6+ figure income. They can innovate like every other business. The ones that succeed will get rich, and the ones that fail will at least have access to a living wage working for a more successful business.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jasondigitized 5y ago
This. Can’t afford a 10% increase in a restaurant meal? Make it yourself. If that means changes in the market so be it. The world will be a better place with less fast food.
Gatsky 5y ago
Yeah, a cheap joint is usually paying cash without proper rates and benefits (the staff being complicit and not declaring income/violating visa work restrictions if not local). In these places the credit card machine is often ‘broken’ or there is a 5% discount for paying cash. I’ve even seen a place that was ‘cash only’ and had built an ATM right next to the cash register in the middle of the restaurant so you couldn’t complain. In Australia it isn’t helped by a labor law system so complicated that even large firms with HR and finance departments the size of a small army can’t pay people properly.
fundad 5y ago
Th people who complained the loudest about restaurant closures are the ones that get off the hardest on being served. They will most certainly NOT pay more for their meals.

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago

> Eating out is expensive and should be expensive if you want businesses to sustain themselves when there’s turmoil in the industry. Why is it only expensive because there can be turmoil? Isn't it primarily expensive IFF labor is expensive?

vorpalhex 5y ago

The problem is that a lot of people are used to eating out being cheap. Kitchens have dwindled in size, as have the basic skills of grocery shopping and preparing meals. It might be longterm good for eating out to be expensive again (especially for waistlines) but it will come as a big shock and do short term harm.

criddell 5y ago
> Kitchens have dwindled in size Is that true? In a lot of new homes where I live the kitchens are one of the places the builders spend money. It's pretty common to see multiple ovens, a high end stove top, big dishwasher, gigantic refrigerator, etc...
- maxsilver 5y ago
  > In a lot of new homes where I live the kitchens are one of the places the builders spend money. Regular people generally can't afford new homes. Working class professionals usually get shoved into apartments (usually small ones) with small kitchens in 5+1 buildings or renovated industrial buildings. Stuff like this is pretty common - https://images1.apartments.com/i2/5Wguguo1YZBzaUo30bfX2jUIY6wfpriwgayikEX-pXo/102/28grand-detroit-mi-building-photo.jpg?p=1 https://images1.apartments.com/i2/5Wguguo1YZBzaUo30bfX2jUIY6... or this one https://images1.apartments.com/i2/PuDTEuad8QYuGVJfUJAbGHCZISjR3khFzF3U_EJP7LU/102/philip-houze-detroit-mi-kitchen.jpg?p=1 https://images1.apartments.com/i2/PuDTEuad8QYuGVJfUJAbGHCZIS... It's not impossible to cook here, of course. But it's designed around the idea that most of your big meals will be "out" somewhere else.
  - ssharp 5y ago
    Were small apartments of yesteryear more generous with their kitchen sizes? The parent comment said kitchens are getting smaller and smaller but I'm not sure if that's actually true. I lived in quite a few houses (middle / lower-middle class) growing up and it seemed like the older homes all had much smaller kitchens than the ones that weren't as old. Maybe that is happening for apartments for singles and DINKs living in urban areas where your lifestyle may be shifting towards eating at restaurants more than at home, but especially for families with kids, the trend definitely seems to be larger kitchens and kitchens that are more integrated into the home.
    - zippzom 5y ago
      I live in a very old studio apartment (built in 1909) and it has a separate kitchen that is the size of the kitchen in most of my friends' single family homes. It is probably ~1/3rd the square footage of the entire apartment. Obviously that's just anecdotal but I do think that the kitchen used to be prioritized much more, at least in apartments.
- dagw 5y ago
  Is that true? Certainly seems to be true here in Sweden. All new houses and apartments I've seen recently have tiny open plan kitchen with terrible layouts. It's clear that they layed out the rest of the house first and then just crammed in a kitchen in whatever space was left over.
cafard 5y ago
In the neighborhood where I live, most of the houses were build between the late 1920s and the late 1940s. Generally they had galley kitchens, for people who could afford the houses could afford cooks, and why use up space on the cook's area. Kitchen renovation probably came in on the second turnover, about 2000, when boomers etc. moved in.

steelstraw 5y ago

What this means in practice is that restaurants will become a luxury again. Is that a net good or bad?

kukx 5y ago

Why should everyone be paid a lot? Is everyone's labor really worth the same? Should not people be paid according to the value of their input? I am super fine with people charging me little for their services as long as they deem that it makes sense for them and the quality is acceptable. I want people that can provide great value for a fair price to outcompete others, because I want to promote them and hopefully they will develop and make economy a little bit better a little bit more efficient.

zwkrt 5y ago
Everyone should be paid enough to eat reasonable food. If you think this is already the case you live in a bubble.

newsbinator 5y ago

> Eating out is expensive and should be expensive if you want businesses to sustain themselves when there’s turmoil in the industry. Eating out shouldn't have to be more expensive than eating in. And in many countries it isn't. Restaurants benefit from scale that your kitchen doesn't. If you were feeding a family of 150, your per-meal price would crater. Of course a restaurant has to pay staff, so the numbers have to add up, but conceptually, there's no particular reason why a chicken sandwich at a restaurant should cost more than a chicken sandwich at home, as long as that restaurant is serving chicken sandwiches, chicken tacos, and chicken pasta all afternoon/evening. Granted during covid and shipping shortages all bets are off. And obviously even during non-covid times, restaurants can set their own prices, charge a 100x multiple for exclusivity, ambiance, etc. But fundamentally there's no obvious reason why getting food at a restaurant needs to cost more than getting food at home, while still making the restaurant a profit that lets them pay salaries and sustain their business.

pempem 5y ago
In which countries is it not cheaper to cook your own food than to buy it out? The only things I can think of are: - truly street food in areas like sinagpore or india which is not a sustainable every meal option for most digestive systems - island nations where you're comparing fresh produce to a prepared meal It should be and is cheaper to cook your own food. Purchases are limited to need, meals are usually a tiny percentage of the overall purchase, cost does not include: rent, talent, fixed costs such as kitchens/tables/plates/etc, healthcare, marketing, etc.
- Dudelander 5y ago
  Mexico for one. It's typically cheaper to eat at a Taco restaurant then to buy your own at a grocery store. There are a lot of reasons for this, but the biggest is more limited selection, more efficient service and cheaper real estate. The real estate issue is not one that is easy to address, but the other issues are adjustable. It's silly to expect the government to bail out restaurants when they admit they can't even pay their employees a living wage. Regardless of what you think the government should do about helping poor people, it most certainly should not be guaranteeing small business owners a 6+ figure income. They can innovate like every other business. The ones that succeed will get rich, and the ones that fail will at least have access to a living wage working for a more successful business.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jasondigitized 5y ago

This. Can’t afford a 10% increase in a restaurant meal? Make it yourself. If that means changes in the market so be it. The world will be a better place with less fast food.

Gatsky 5y ago

Yeah, a cheap joint is usually paying cash without proper rates and benefits (the staff being complicit and not declaring income/violating visa work restrictions if not local). In these places the credit card machine is often ‘broken’ or there is a 5% discount for paying cash. I’ve even seen a place that was ‘cash only’ and had built an ATM right next to the cash register in the middle of the restaurant so you couldn’t complain. In Australia it isn’t helped by a labor law system so complicated that even large firms with HR and finance departments the size of a small army can’t pay people properly.

fundad 5y ago

Th people who complained the loudest about restaurant closures are the ones that get off the hardest on being served. They will most certainly NOT pay more for their meals.