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I don't know about you but I can and do jump on a call with the product managers and my peers the second I run into any issues when it's fresh in my mind; I don

I don't know about you but I can and do jump on a call with the product managers and my peers the second I run into any issues when it's fresh in my mind; I don't do well at remembering the problem the next morning, an hour after I just woke up. I'm not saying there aren't benefits to scrum but the ones you are stating are poorly done if they are mostly done via scrum.

vannevar 5y ago
If you don't remember something the next day, it's probably not important enough to report anyway. Scrum isn't a recitation of minutiae for its own sake, it's a quick summary of progress and blockers. I would hope you could remember what you did or didn't finish yesterday, and whether you're blocked. And it's great that you communicate with your team when you run into a problem. But spending a few minutes each day giving everyone on the team a quick summary of the outcome of those issues shouldn't seem like a big burden and could be helpful given that you're all working on the same project.
- jjav 5y ago
  > Scrum isn't a recitation of minutiae for its own sake In 12 years of having to deal with the annoying fad of agile/scrum, I've never seen it be anything other than precisely that: "a recitation of minutiae for its own sake".
  - vannevar 5y ago
    Even your own contribution? Scrum is a team thing---if your scrums are terrible, its because you and your teammates like them that way for some reason. You have no one to blame but yourself if you let it go on for 12 years.
    - jjav 5y ago
      That's ~12 years in six different companies. I've never seen it be anything other than an annoying micromanagement technique.
      - vannevar 5y ago
        How is it micromanagement? You're reporting to each other.
- rxhernandez 5y ago
  It's not a big burden to update people, I've just seen the process abused so much that it becomes a colossal waste of time. Why can't I just post an asynchronous update to some group page at the end of the day? > If you don't remember something the next day, it's probably not important enough to report anyway. It can be a big enough deal and still take A LOT of effort to have all the abstractions ready in my mind for that meeting.
  - vannevar 5y ago
    You definitely don't need to have "all the abstractions" ready in your mind. All you should be doing in scrum is summarizing the current status and what you need from the team. Standup isn't for solving your issue, or even describing it in detail. If the process is being abused, stop abusing it and let your teammates know when they're drilling down too much. If your standups are bad, it's because you and your peers are letting them be bad.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  It is an insane burden that wastes everyone's times. Communicate immediately don't wait until the next day. It is an anti-pattern, you end up structuring your work around status updates instead of the real problem.
  - vannevar 5y ago
    Scrum is a floor on communication, not a ceiling. There's nothing in scrum that says the team can't meet outside of the daily standup. The standup just ensures that everyone has a chance to hear what's going on with others on the project. If you're "structuring your work around standups", that's on you. I've done scrum for over 15 years and I've never felt the need to do that.
jimbokun 5y ago
> I don't know about you but I can and do jump on a call with the product managers and my peers the second I run into any issues when it's fresh in my mind; But this can disrupt whatever flow state your peers are in, reducing their productivity. The purpose of stand ups is LESS meetings and FEWER interruptions. If you're still interrupting coworkers frequently throughout the day then, sure, a stand up doesn't add much value.
satyrnein 5y ago
I tell everyone to not wait, ask as soon as they need something, just hit the squad channel on slack, etc. If people all did this perfectly, we would end the standup in 30 seconds everyday (we don't bother with the recitation part, just if anyone is blocked or needs anything). And yet, people often need help and haven't asked yet. I think it lowers the barrier for some people.

vannevar 5y ago

If you don't remember something the next day, it's probably not important enough to report anyway. Scrum isn't a recitation of minutiae for its own sake, it's a quick summary of progress and blockers. I would hope you could remember what you did or didn't finish yesterday, and whether you're blocked. And it's great that you communicate with your team when you run into a problem. But spending a few minutes each day giving everyone on the team a quick summary of the outcome of those issues shouldn't seem like a big burden and could be helpful given that you're all working on the same project.

jjav 5y ago
> Scrum isn't a recitation of minutiae for its own sake In 12 years of having to deal with the annoying fad of agile/scrum, I've never seen it be anything other than precisely that: "a recitation of minutiae for its own sake".
- vannevar 5y ago
  Even your own contribution? Scrum is a team thing---if your scrums are terrible, its because you and your teammates like them that way for some reason. You have no one to blame but yourself if you let it go on for 12 years.
  - jjav 5y ago
    That's ~12 years in six different companies. I've never seen it be anything other than an annoying micromanagement technique.
    - vannevar 5y ago
      How is it micromanagement? You're reporting to each other.
rxhernandez 5y ago
It's not a big burden to update people, I've just seen the process abused so much that it becomes a colossal waste of time. Why can't I just post an asynchronous update to some group page at the end of the day? > If you don't remember something the next day, it's probably not important enough to report anyway. It can be a big enough deal and still take A LOT of effort to have all the abstractions ready in my mind for that meeting.
- vannevar 5y ago
  You definitely don't need to have "all the abstractions" ready in your mind. All you should be doing in scrum is summarizing the current status and what you need from the team. Standup isn't for solving your issue, or even describing it in detail. If the process is being abused, stop abusing it and let your teammates know when they're drilling down too much. If your standups are bad, it's because you and your peers are letting them be bad.
ipaddr 5y ago
It is an insane burden that wastes everyone's times. Communicate immediately don't wait until the next day. It is an anti-pattern, you end up structuring your work around status updates instead of the real problem.
- vannevar 5y ago
  Scrum is a floor on communication, not a ceiling. There's nothing in scrum that says the team can't meet outside of the daily standup. The standup just ensures that everyone has a chance to hear what's going on with others on the project. If you're "structuring your work around standups", that's on you. I've done scrum for over 15 years and I've never felt the need to do that.

jimbokun 5y ago

> I don't know about you but I can and do jump on a call with the product managers and my peers the second I run into any issues when it's fresh in my mind; But this can disrupt whatever flow state your peers are in, reducing their productivity. The purpose of stand ups is LESS meetings and FEWER interruptions. If you're still interrupting coworkers frequently throughout the day then, sure, a stand up doesn't add much value.

satyrnein 5y ago

I tell everyone to not wait, ask as soon as they need something, just hit the squad channel on slack, etc. If people all did this perfectly, we would end the standup in 30 seconds everyday (we don't bother with the recitation part, just if anyone is blocked or needs anything). And yet, people often need help and haven't asked yet. I think it lowers the barrier for some people.