8 ms·

English is spoken by more non-native speakers than native, and often they pronounce those letters since they don't know about it. With that in mind, I wonder if

English is spoken by more non-native speakers than native, and often they pronounce those letters since they don't know about it. With that in mind, I wonder if the language will eventually evolve to a point where the "b" of "debt" and other silent letters are no longer considered silent.

islon 5y ago
Non native speaker here. I always pronounced the b in debt and in doubt. Learned something new today =)
- MathCodeLove 5y ago
  Could you show phonetically how it sounds when you say those words? Im struggling to imagine what pronouncing the b would sound like
  - mhitza 5y ago
    Non-native English speaker here. I don't know what the proper phonetical representation is for my pronunciation, but it sounds like 'kept', just with a b and a softer p.
    - xeromal 5y ago
      Like Johnny Dept. hahah
  - mcprwklzpq 5y ago
    Imagine skipping i in debit. Or just say deb - it will be close. I always pronounced it somewhat like this. [1] The worst thing is that i had heard the word pronounced by native speakers hundreds of times and did not notice. Now i am not even sure that b is there in [1]. Here is another example that certainly has b[2]. 1. https://youtu.be/CZIINXhGDcs?t=10 https://youtu.be/CZIINXhGDcs?t=10 2. https://youtu.be/Ws22Nsg1lBI&t=10 https://youtu.be/Ws22Nsg1lBI&t=10
- napsterbr 5y ago
  Non-native speaker as well. I recently noticed the "b" is supposed to be silent, but then every time I say "debt" without the "b", phonetically I'm saying the same as "that". They sound the same to me, at least. This is probably related to the fact that "bad" and "bed" sound exactly the same to me.
  - neutronicus 5y ago
    Related, yes, but the "th" in "that" should sound different (tongue touching edges of both top and bottom teeth, extending just past) from the "d" in "debt" (tongue touching roof of mouth just behind front teeth) The vowels are tougher, though. I didn't appreciate how many different vowels there are in English until I married a woman whose native language doesn't have most of them (Hebrew doesn't have the "a" in "bad", the "i" in "grin", nor a bunch of weird regional American "o" sounds)
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - jraph 5y ago
    Do you here the same thing when listening to the US or the UK pronunciation of those? https://www.wordreference.com/definition/bad https://www.wordreference.com/definition/bad https://www.wordreference.com/definition/bed https://www.wordreference.com/definition/bed (then yes, I guess it's coherent)
  - Ancapistani 5y ago
    Native speaker here, from the Ozarks (US, on the Missouri/Arkansas border). I can't hear the distinction between "pin" and "pen" unless I'm really paying attention. Even then I have to say it a dozen or so time before I can make myself say them distinctively. My birth accent is to pronounce them both mostly like "pin".
hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
Yeah, when talking to non-natives I sometimes double-check if they understand words with silent letters/non-obvious pronunciation, but sometimes I just mispronounce them to be better understood, it's faster.
Ekaros 5y ago
Interesting question, which will correct spelling or pronunciation... Coming from language that has almost perfect mapping between the two English never made any sense to me. And I think it is clearly field that should be fixed in either way.
Semaphor 5y ago
> and often they pronounce those letters since they don't know about it. While I probably learned this in school, I apparently forgot and have been semi-pronouncing the b (not sure how to call it, it’s "semi-silent"?) for many years now.
Scarblac 5y ago
The hard thing is that I read English the whole day, I don't often listen to it. And pronunciation is really unpredictable -- I once lost a bet because I couldn't believe that "finite" and "infinite" were pronounced so differently. I happen to know about "debt". But variants of it, like "indebted"? Who knows?
- rahimnathwani 5y ago
  Wait until you hear someone say 'caveat'.
  - Scarblac 5y ago
    Good point, I really have no clue what that sounds like. The poem _The Chaos_ ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edPxKqiptw&t=12s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edPxKqiptw&t=12s ) is about this sort of thing, written by a Dutch teacher of English pronunciation. (but even that mass of examples does not include debt, doubt or caveat)
    - rahimnathwani 5y ago
      I had a colleague (very smart guy, with excellent written English) who didn't believe me when I told him caveat was not pronounced the same as 'cave at'.
  - xeromal 5y ago
    Verbiage is another one. Most people I know say verbage instead of verb-ia-ge like the dictionary sometimes recommends.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- nicoburns 5y ago
  I was quite a prolific reader as a child, and this caught me out with a quite a few words even as a native english speaker. My favourite instance being "awry"(pronounced a-wry). I was aware of and understood the word a-wry (having heard it on the radio), but I thought there was also a word "awry" pronounced aw-ry. I was in my twenties before I connected that these were the same word.
housecarpenter 5y ago
It's happened again and again with other words. "often" (older pronunciation: "offen"), "Anthony" (older pronunciation: "Antony") and "tortoise" (older pronunciation: "tortuss") are examples where the spelling pronunciation still hasn't totally won out. Words where the spelling pronunciation has reached fixation include "falcon" (older pronunciation: "fawken"), "reptile" (older pronunciation: "reptil"), "sphere" (older pronunciation: "spear"), "bankrupt" (older pronunciation: "bankrout"), "baptism" (older pronunciation: "baptime"), and "perfect" (older pronunciation: "parfit").
- kerneloftruth 5y ago
  I find that in the past few years I encounter more people (native English speakers) who intentionally pronounce the T in often. I notice that several are NPR correspondents, which makes me think some are saying it to "sound smart". It's funny, really.
  - yeldarb 5y ago
    If you don’t pronounce the “t” in “often”, how do you pronounce “oft”?
    - jazzyjackson 5y ago
      what kind of hoighty-toighty high-falutin podcast-producer uses the word "oft" in spoken english?
      - selimthegrim 5y ago
        Oft-injured, oft-changing...
    - tdeck 5y ago
      If you don't pronounce the "t" in "listen", how do you pronounce "list"?
  - toyg 5y ago

islon 5y ago

Non native speaker here. I always pronounced the b in debt and in doubt. Learned something new today =)

MathCodeLove 5y ago
Could you show phonetically how it sounds when you say those words? Im struggling to imagine what pronouncing the b would sound like
- mhitza 5y ago
  Non-native English speaker here. I don't know what the proper phonetical representation is for my pronunciation, but it sounds like 'kept', just with a b and a softer p.
  - xeromal 5y ago
    Like Johnny Dept. hahah
- mcprwklzpq 5y ago
  Imagine skipping i in debit. Or just say deb - it will be close. I always pronounced it somewhat like this. [1] The worst thing is that i had heard the word pronounced by native speakers hundreds of times and did not notice. Now i am not even sure that b is there in [1]. Here is another example that certainly has b[2]. 1. https://youtu.be/CZIINXhGDcs?t=10 https://youtu.be/CZIINXhGDcs?t=10 2. https://youtu.be/Ws22Nsg1lBI&t=10 https://youtu.be/Ws22Nsg1lBI&t=10
napsterbr 5y ago
Non-native speaker as well. I recently noticed the "b" is supposed to be silent, but then every time I say "debt" without the "b", phonetically I'm saying the same as "that". They sound the same to me, at least. This is probably related to the fact that "bad" and "bed" sound exactly the same to me.
- neutronicus 5y ago
  Related, yes, but the "th" in "that" should sound different (tongue touching edges of both top and bottom teeth, extending just past) from the "d" in "debt" (tongue touching roof of mouth just behind front teeth) The vowels are tougher, though. I didn't appreciate how many different vowels there are in English until I married a woman whose native language doesn't have most of them (Hebrew doesn't have the "a" in "bad", the "i" in "grin", nor a bunch of weird regional American "o" sounds)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- jraph 5y ago
  Do you here the same thing when listening to the US or the UK pronunciation of those? https://www.wordreference.com/definition/bad https://www.wordreference.com/definition/bad https://www.wordreference.com/definition/bed https://www.wordreference.com/definition/bed (then yes, I guess it's coherent)
- Ancapistani 5y ago
  Native speaker here, from the Ozarks (US, on the Missouri/Arkansas border). I can't hear the distinction between "pin" and "pen" unless I'm really paying attention. Even then I have to say it a dozen or so time before I can make myself say them distinctively. My birth accent is to pronounce them both mostly like "pin".

hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago

Yeah, when talking to non-natives I sometimes double-check if they understand words with silent letters/non-obvious pronunciation, but sometimes I just mispronounce them to be better understood, it's faster.

Ekaros 5y ago

Interesting question, which will correct spelling or pronunciation... Coming from language that has almost perfect mapping between the two English never made any sense to me. And I think it is clearly field that should be fixed in either way.

Semaphor 5y ago

> and often they pronounce those letters since they don't know about it. While I probably learned this in school, I apparently forgot and have been semi-pronouncing the b (not sure how to call it, it’s "semi-silent"?) for many years now.

Scarblac 5y ago

The hard thing is that I read English the whole day, I don't often listen to it. And pronunciation is really unpredictable -- I once lost a bet because I couldn't believe that "finite" and "infinite" were pronounced so differently. I happen to know about "debt". But variants of it, like "indebted"? Who knows?

rahimnathwani 5y ago
Wait until you hear someone say 'caveat'.
- Scarblac 5y ago
  Good point, I really have no clue what that sounds like. The poem _The Chaos_ ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edPxKqiptw&t=12s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edPxKqiptw&t=12s ) is about this sort of thing, written by a Dutch teacher of English pronunciation. (but even that mass of examples does not include debt, doubt or caveat)
  - rahimnathwani 5y ago
    I had a colleague (very smart guy, with excellent written English) who didn't believe me when I told him caveat was not pronounced the same as 'cave at'.
- xeromal 5y ago
  Verbiage is another one. Most people I know say verbage instead of verb-ia-ge like the dictionary sometimes recommends.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
nicoburns 5y ago
I was quite a prolific reader as a child, and this caught me out with a quite a few words even as a native english speaker. My favourite instance being "awry"(pronounced a-wry). I was aware of and understood the word a-wry (having heard it on the radio), but I thought there was also a word "awry" pronounced aw-ry. I was in my twenties before I connected that these were the same word.

housecarpenter 5y ago

It's happened again and again with other words. "often" (older pronunciation: "offen"), "Anthony" (older pronunciation: "Antony") and "tortoise" (older pronunciation: "tortuss") are examples where the spelling pronunciation still hasn't totally won out. Words where the spelling pronunciation has reached fixation include "falcon" (older pronunciation: "fawken"), "reptile" (older pronunciation: "reptil"), "sphere" (older pronunciation: "spear"), "bankrupt" (older pronunciation: "bankrout"), "baptism" (older pronunciation: "baptime"), and "perfect" (older pronunciation: "parfit").

kerneloftruth 5y ago
I find that in the past few years I encounter more people (native English speakers) who intentionally pronounce the T in often. I notice that several are NPR correspondents, which makes me think some are saying it to "sound smart". It's funny, really.
- yeldarb 5y ago
  If you don’t pronounce the “t” in “often”, how do you pronounce “oft”?
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    what kind of hoighty-toighty high-falutin podcast-producer uses the word "oft" in spoken english?
    - selimthegrim 5y ago
      Oft-injured, oft-changing...
  - tdeck 5y ago
    If you don't pronounce the "t" in "listen", how do you pronounce "list"?
- toyg 5y ago