8 ms·

I work in the industry and have worked in a fab. Here is some insight. We are taught that fabs are not treated as factories but as hazardous chemical storage p

I work in the industry and have worked in a fab. Here is some insight. We are taught that fabs are not treated as factories but as hazardous chemical storage plants. On top of that, we work with high pressure and high power systems. Fires have accounted for the most damage to fabs over the years; however, this situation is different. The site is not a fab, it is a ASML manufacturing plant. This plant does not produce chips. It produces parts for the ASML machines. It makes the tables the wafer moves on and the frame the mask moves on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH6Urfqt_d4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH6Urfqt_d4 https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/mask https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/mask Downstream effects of this fire will reduce the uptime of the machines and the delivery of promised machines to our customers. To plug ASML. Speaking as a new grad. If you are in hardware, physics, nanoscience, simulations. ASML is the best company to work at if you want to learn. I get exposure to maybe the most complex engineering system is the world. The scale, complexity, details, and just hardcore technology is mind-blowing. I am plugging ASML because it is not widely know and I would love if fellow engineers had the opportunity to work here. I absolutely love the work I do.

McBeige 5y ago
Sounds fascinating! What kinds of simulations?
- CookiesNCream23 5y ago
  I am not an expert in this area. Most of it is physics simulations. An example I know of is that we use feed forward control to make sure layers are aligned and printed with nanometer precision. Simulations are needed in this instance to model effects like thermal expansion, pressure waves, and much more. There is also more work in metrology (measurement) with stuff like scanning electron microscopes, lasers, flow, etc. You can find more about this by looking at the companies ASML has acquired or ASML's job postings.
traceroute66 5y ago
> Downstream effects of this fire will reduce the uptime of the machines and the delivery of promised machines to our customers. Given that it is the factory acquired from Berlin Glas in 2020, surely its capacity would only "just" be coming online at ASML and they have pre-existing capacity elsewhere ?
- CookiesNCream23 5y ago
  Can't talk about that :)
- aemreunal 5y ago
  They may have sold that production with the assumption it'll come on, which will now be delayed.
- postingawayonhn 5y ago
  It sounds like Berlin Glas was already supplying these components to ASML and ASML just decided to buy them out.
DoingIsLearning 5y ago
I've seen some interesting positions from ASML but like many Dutch companies they seem to be office/lab centric. Do you know of any software teams within ASML that are remote friendly?
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  Most semiconductor/electronics companies are not at all remote friendly, in the way you'd imagine, since, like you said, their core business is lab centered and focused on selling products you have to physically interact with, unlike the pure SW industry. Some are however, remote friendly in the way that they do offer WFH options, but that means you live around the office/HQ for legal and security reasons and can WFH every now and then, with the agreemant that you have to show up at the office when required, not you get employed form anywhere in the world you happen to reside in and keep working from your living room, that's a no-go from the start for any established company in the semi field. Also, most of them believe in a culture where shoulder-to-shoulder collaboration is key to development success and innovation, and having worked in the industry I have to agree. When the industry was forced remote kicking and screaming in 2020 "thanks" to Covid, morale and junior onboarding suffered a lot since the whole processes and culture was built on decades of shoulder-to-shoulder work where the only way to learn was, besides the necessary years in academia, to hang around seasoned graybeards and get your hands dirty with them vs self study with Googling the answers on stack overflow, so this process couldn't (management also didn't want to) suddenly uproot it and convert it to fully remote. Basically, a material scientist, optics engineer or physicist would be at the core of the main money making products (lithography machines) and therefore be way more valued than SW devs which tend to be treated more as cost center in this industry (in general but can't speak for ASML), so if you like being at the core of the product and be treated like a rockstar, then I'd stay in the SW industry and avoid the semi industry all together (I worked 7 years as a dev in semi, before leaving it for good for the SW industry, but the graybeards I worked with in analog design with deep domain knowledge in RF were making bank and were pampered like rockstars, whereas SW and FW devs were treated like replaceable cogs that could be easily offshored without any losses).
  - zogomoox 5y ago
jokteur 5y ago
I am currently beginning a PhD in physics (mathematical modeling, simulation on HPC) in Switzerland, and I am afraid that after my PhD, I won't find a job that really pleases me. These last years, I came under the impression that you currently can only find ML driven software engineering jobs (I am exagerating of course), and having done quite a bit of ML and software engineering, I now know that I don't want my future job be like this. A company like ASML gives me hope. Do you know by chance if there are similar companies (complex engineering, with physics, maths, chemistry, computer science, ...) that are located in Switzerland ?
- amelius 5y ago
  This comment makes me wonder how much ML is used at ASML or if there is an growing trend ...
  - zogomoox 5y ago
    I recommend you check out the ASML / Brion campus in Silicon Valley.
  - CookiesNCream23 5y ago
    Can’t tell you the exact details but you should be able to find details from the patents, papers, and tech talks from ASML.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >Do you know by chance if there are similar companies (complex engineering, with physics, maths, chemistry, computer science, ...) that are located in Switzerland ? AFAIK, Switzerland is full of such companies. Especially since CERN and many top universities and research institutes are there.
  - jokteur 5y ago
    Well, I am already beginning my PhD at a top university. I would be more interested to hear about what kind of jobs are in the industry in Switzerland.
varispeed 5y ago
After working at ASML would you get enough knowledge to start competing company? Or is the job so protected with NDAs that basically you wouldn't be able to translate or use the gained knowledge anywhere else? I am thinking, for example, when you realise the working conditions are not great or you are paid not enough, do you have any leverage? If ASML has no competition, then do you have any negotiating power?
- CookiesNCream23 5y ago
  Not a chance. The machines are so complex that nobody knows the whole thing. People dedicate their lives to one small component. What I value is the opportunity to be see technology and scale of this caliber.
- traceroute66 5y ago
  > After working at ASML would you get enough knowledge to start competing company? Or is the job so protected with NDAs that basically you wouldn't be able to translate or use the gained knowledge anywhere else? Bit of a strange question ? Competing with ASML in any sort of serious form would need more than just stealing some IP, it would need $$$ measured in the many billions. ASML does have competitors, Canon and Nikon being the obvious two. But ASML has better technology than them, which is why continues to dominate the market. ASML's model is not dissimilar to Apple's. Throw money at R&D like nobody's business, make some quality company acquisitions along the way, reap the rewards. ASML basically have a 100% market share in EUV, 95% market share in ArF tools, 20% in Dry tools. My limited understanding of the market is that basically ASML will be untouchable until at least the 2030's.
- nine_k 5y ago
  To start a competing company, you'll need billions, and an idea of a market niche. There are about two companies like ASML in the whole world, and there are maybe a dozen consumers of their machines, companies like TSMC or Samsung. ASML is in an effective monopoly position. It's much like asking if you can open a competing company to build nuclear submarines. Technically you likely can.
  - 5y ago
collegeburner 5y ago
This definitely doesn't match how I heard some software is done there: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18463181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18463181
- throwoutway 5y ago
  That sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen. I’m amazed that hasn’t put an egg on their face. Are their customers complaining about issues? And how can the risk managers know so much about potential regressions? Are they a panel of former engineers?! So many questions
  - Heliosmaster 5y ago
    keep in mind that machines like those are so complex that you don't simply buy them and install them. It's more like getting custom-made artisanal goods: each machine has a "father/mother" from its 'conception' til delivery who treats it as their (work) baby. Then a special plane will fly the machine and a team of dedicated engineers will spend weeks in your fab doing install / validation. The process is long and complex. Downtime are really painful and expensive so the philosophy is "better copy paste the code rather than change what's working". downtime are not very frequent but people are just the least expensive / worrying thing there. It's not like you can easily start a competitor...
    - r00fus 5y ago
      It almost sounds like there should be states funding creation of a competitor simply to prevent the "fire impacts entire global industry" kind of news we're seeing today.
      - sharken 5y ago
        ASML has 16 locations around the globe so while it will have some impact, it could be a lot worse. https://www.asml.com/en/company/about-asml/locations https://www.asml.com/en/company/about-asml/locations
alexpetralia 5y ago
For those interested, I very much recommend this brief primer on ASML: https://youtu.be/jJIO7aRXUCg https://youtu.be/jJIO7aRXUCg
thrwyoilarticle 5y ago
When I was a grad at a similar tech company, I avoided alluding to it on HN for fear of appearing to be representing the company (after training mentioning this). Are ASML more forgiving?
Heliosmaster 5y ago
As a person whose first job after graduation was at ASML, and left after 6 months, if you like software I don't think it's the best company to work at.

McBeige 5y ago

Sounds fascinating! What kinds of simulations?

CookiesNCream23 5y ago
I am not an expert in this area. Most of it is physics simulations. An example I know of is that we use feed forward control to make sure layers are aligned and printed with nanometer precision. Simulations are needed in this instance to model effects like thermal expansion, pressure waves, and much more. There is also more work in metrology (measurement) with stuff like scanning electron microscopes, lasers, flow, etc. You can find more about this by looking at the companies ASML has acquired or ASML's job postings.

traceroute66 5y ago

> Downstream effects of this fire will reduce the uptime of the machines and the delivery of promised machines to our customers. Given that it is the factory acquired from Berlin Glas in 2020, surely its capacity would only "just" be coming online at ASML and they have pre-existing capacity elsewhere ?

CookiesNCream23 5y ago
Can't talk about that :)
aemreunal 5y ago
They may have sold that production with the assumption it'll come on, which will now be delayed.
postingawayonhn 5y ago
It sounds like Berlin Glas was already supplying these components to ASML and ASML just decided to buy them out.

DoingIsLearning 5y ago

I've seen some interesting positions from ASML but like many Dutch companies they seem to be office/lab centric. Do you know of any software teams within ASML that are remote friendly?

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
Most semiconductor/electronics companies are not at all remote friendly, in the way you'd imagine, since, like you said, their core business is lab centered and focused on selling products you have to physically interact with, unlike the pure SW industry. Some are however, remote friendly in the way that they do offer WFH options, but that means you live around the office/HQ for legal and security reasons and can WFH every now and then, with the agreemant that you have to show up at the office when required, not you get employed form anywhere in the world you happen to reside in and keep working from your living room, that's a no-go from the start for any established company in the semi field. Also, most of them believe in a culture where shoulder-to-shoulder collaboration is key to development success and innovation, and having worked in the industry I have to agree. When the industry was forced remote kicking and screaming in 2020 "thanks" to Covid, morale and junior onboarding suffered a lot since the whole processes and culture was built on decades of shoulder-to-shoulder work where the only way to learn was, besides the necessary years in academia, to hang around seasoned graybeards and get your hands dirty with them vs self study with Googling the answers on stack overflow, so this process couldn't (management also didn't want to) suddenly uproot it and convert it to fully remote. Basically, a material scientist, optics engineer or physicist would be at the core of the main money making products (lithography machines) and therefore be way more valued than SW devs which tend to be treated more as cost center in this industry (in general but can't speak for ASML), so if you like being at the core of the product and be treated like a rockstar, then I'd stay in the SW industry and avoid the semi industry all together (I worked 7 years as a dev in semi, before leaving it for good for the SW industry, but the graybeards I worked with in analog design with deep domain knowledge in RF were making bank and were pampered like rockstars, whereas SW and FW devs were treated like replaceable cogs that could be easily offshored without any losses).
- zogomoox 5y ago

jokteur 5y ago

I am currently beginning a PhD in physics (mathematical modeling, simulation on HPC) in Switzerland, and I am afraid that after my PhD, I won't find a job that really pleases me. These last years, I came under the impression that you currently can only find ML driven software engineering jobs (I am exagerating of course), and having done quite a bit of ML and software engineering, I now know that I don't want my future job be like this. A company like ASML gives me hope. Do you know by chance if there are similar companies (complex engineering, with physics, maths, chemistry, computer science, ...) that are located in Switzerland ?

amelius 5y ago
This comment makes me wonder how much ML is used at ASML or if there is an growing trend ...
- zogomoox 5y ago
  I recommend you check out the ASML / Brion campus in Silicon Valley.
- CookiesNCream23 5y ago
  Can’t tell you the exact details but you should be able to find details from the patents, papers, and tech talks from ASML.
ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>Do you know by chance if there are similar companies (complex engineering, with physics, maths, chemistry, computer science, ...) that are located in Switzerland ? AFAIK, Switzerland is full of such companies. Especially since CERN and many top universities and research institutes are there.
- jokteur 5y ago
  Well, I am already beginning my PhD at a top university. I would be more interested to hear about what kind of jobs are in the industry in Switzerland.

varispeed 5y ago

After working at ASML would you get enough knowledge to start competing company? Or is the job so protected with NDAs that basically you wouldn't be able to translate or use the gained knowledge anywhere else? I am thinking, for example, when you realise the working conditions are not great or you are paid not enough, do you have any leverage? If ASML has no competition, then do you have any negotiating power?

CookiesNCream23 5y ago
Not a chance. The machines are so complex that nobody knows the whole thing. People dedicate their lives to one small component. What I value is the opportunity to be see technology and scale of this caliber.
traceroute66 5y ago
> After working at ASML would you get enough knowledge to start competing company? Or is the job so protected with NDAs that basically you wouldn't be able to translate or use the gained knowledge anywhere else? Bit of a strange question ? Competing with ASML in any sort of serious form would need more than just stealing some IP, it would need $$$ measured in the many billions. ASML does have competitors, Canon and Nikon being the obvious two. But ASML has better technology than them, which is why continues to dominate the market. ASML's model is not dissimilar to Apple's. Throw money at R&D like nobody's business, make some quality company acquisitions along the way, reap the rewards. ASML basically have a 100% market share in EUV, 95% market share in ArF tools, 20% in Dry tools. My limited understanding of the market is that basically ASML will be untouchable until at least the 2030's.
nine_k 5y ago
To start a competing company, you'll need billions, and an idea of a market niche. There are about two companies like ASML in the whole world, and there are maybe a dozen consumers of their machines, companies like TSMC or Samsung. ASML is in an effective monopoly position. It's much like asking if you can open a competing company to build nuclear submarines. Technically you likely can.
- 5y ago

collegeburner 5y ago

This definitely doesn't match how I heard some software is done there: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18463181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18463181

throwoutway 5y ago
That sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen. I’m amazed that hasn’t put an egg on their face. Are their customers complaining about issues? And how can the risk managers know so much about potential regressions? Are they a panel of former engineers?! So many questions
- Heliosmaster 5y ago
  keep in mind that machines like those are so complex that you don't simply buy them and install them. It's more like getting custom-made artisanal goods: each machine has a "father/mother" from its 'conception' til delivery who treats it as their (work) baby. Then a special plane will fly the machine and a team of dedicated engineers will spend weeks in your fab doing install / validation. The process is long and complex. Downtime are really painful and expensive so the philosophy is "better copy paste the code rather than change what's working". downtime are not very frequent but people are just the least expensive / worrying thing there. It's not like you can easily start a competitor...
  - r00fus 5y ago
    It almost sounds like there should be states funding creation of a competitor simply to prevent the "fire impacts entire global industry" kind of news we're seeing today.
    - sharken 5y ago
      ASML has 16 locations around the globe so while it will have some impact, it could be a lot worse. https://www.asml.com/en/company/about-asml/locations https://www.asml.com/en/company/about-asml/locations

alexpetralia 5y ago

For those interested, I very much recommend this brief primer on ASML: https://youtu.be/jJIO7aRXUCg https://youtu.be/jJIO7aRXUCg

thrwyoilarticle 5y ago

When I was a grad at a similar tech company, I avoided alluding to it on HN for fear of appearing to be representing the company (after training mentioning this). Are ASML more forgiving?

Heliosmaster 5y ago

As a person whose first job after graduation was at ASML, and left after 6 months, if you like software I don't think it's the best company to work at.