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Ummm… I do. It’s not a hard b sound, but it is there. It sort of moves the location of the “t” sound down towards a “b.” It defiantly does not sound like “det”.

Ummm… I do. It’s not a hard b sound, but it is there. It sort of moves the location of the “t” sound down towards a “b.” It defiantly does not sound like “det”. And I distinctly pronounce the “b” in “plumber” (another example in the article.

ncmncm 5y ago
We all have our faults. But we don't need to promote them. There is also no "t" sound in "often", never was. Some officious busybody thought "offen" and "oft" ought to be related. so put "often" in a dictionary. Now people who don't know any better pronounce it. But it's rare to find anybody trying, foolishly, to say the "b" in debt and doubt. I doubt anybody tries to pronounce the "l" in "could". That one appears to be the product of busybody typesetters, imagining some parallel with "should" and "would" (related to "shall" and "will"), which also do not get any "l" sound; but "could" is related to "can".
- boondaburrah 5y ago
  There very much is a 't' sound in 'often,' but it depends on how you talk (whether or not there was before, language changes). If you're saying native speakers are saying it wrong, then I don't know what to tell you.
  - kwhitefoot 5y ago
    I would only pronounce the t when emphasizing the word.
    - boondaburrah 5y ago
      That and if you need to hit the back of an auditorium without a mic.
  - vehemenz 5y ago
    Maybe you're young or speak a nonconventional dialect. In my local dialect (Midwest American), the "t" is almost never pronounced. I wouldn't say it's wrong to hammer the "t" home, but it sounds clumsy to my ears.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Linguists call it "spelling pronunciation": pronouncing as written, pedantically, despite not hearing it spoken that way. It's silly, but less silly than many other things. Of course, the more it happens, the more other people hear it that way and come to believe it is normal. In some times and places it becomes normal.
- jwilk 5y ago
  https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/correct-pronunciation-of-often https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/correct-pronun... > Often has a medial /t/ that, like similar words such has "hasten" and "soften," was once pronounced and is now typically silent.
- srcreigh 5y ago
  Same with Toronto. It's really more like Turonno
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > There is also no "t" sound in "often", never was. Some officious busybody thought "offen" and "oft" ought to be related. so put "often" in a dictionary. Now people who don't know any better pronounce it. Hmm? The etymology dictionaries don't appear to back you up on this. > often (adv.): "repeatedly, again and again, many times, under many circumstances," mid-13c., an extended form of oft, in Middle English typically before vowels and h-, probably by influence of its opposite, seldom (Middle English selden). ( https://www.etymonline.com/word/often https://www.etymonline.com/word/often ) > From Middle English often, alteration (with final -n added due to analogy with Middle English selden (“seldom”)) of Middle English ofte, oft, from Old English oft (“oft; often”) ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/often https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/often ) Where did you get the idea that they weren't related?
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    The words are obviously related. But that doesn't mean one came from the other.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      > The words are obviously related. You just said they weren't...?
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        It's one thing to recognize two words have the same root, and mean the same thing, and something completely different to take a letter from one and stick it in the middle of the other one where it is never pronounced. It's the same thing as debt and doubt. And, now there are people trying to pronounce that letter just because they see it in the word.
        thaumasiotes 5y ago
        No, "often" is derived directly from "oft". This isn't a case of two words having the same root; it's a case of one word metamorphosing into the other word.
wazari972 5y ago
Native French speaker here, same, I woulnd't pronounce "debt" the same way I would pronounce "dette" in French, and likewise for "doubt", which would turn in French "doute" ...
- jgtrosh 5y ago
  Shame, since “debt” is pronounced exactly like « dette »
- pm215 5y ago
  The difference between 'doubt' and 'doute' is the vowel sound, not a presence/absence of 'b'. 'debt' and 'dette' don't sound quite identical to me (as a native English speaker and learner of French) but they're very close and the difference isn't that there's a 'b' sound in there. Maybe it's that French 't' is slightly different.
  - housecarpenter 5y ago
    French t is dental, English t is alveolar---in non-technical language, that means the French t is pronounced slightly further forward in your mouth, compared to the English t. The English t is also aspirated a lot of the time (though not as consistently at the end of a word as at the beginning), while the French t is never aspirated. There could be differences between the two short e sounds as well, but that depends more on which particular accents of English/French you're talking about.

ncmncm 5y ago

We all have our faults. But we don't need to promote them. There is also no "t" sound in "often", never was. Some officious busybody thought "offen" and "oft" ought to be related. so put "often" in a dictionary. Now people who don't know any better pronounce it. But it's rare to find anybody trying, foolishly, to say the "b" in debt and doubt. I doubt anybody tries to pronounce the "l" in "could". That one appears to be the product of busybody typesetters, imagining some parallel with "should" and "would" (related to "shall" and "will"), which also do not get any "l" sound; but "could" is related to "can".

boondaburrah 5y ago
There very much is a 't' sound in 'often,' but it depends on how you talk (whether or not there was before, language changes). If you're saying native speakers are saying it wrong, then I don't know what to tell you.
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  I would only pronounce the t when emphasizing the word.
  - boondaburrah 5y ago
    That and if you need to hit the back of an auditorium without a mic.
- vehemenz 5y ago
  Maybe you're young or speak a nonconventional dialect. In my local dialect (Midwest American), the "t" is almost never pronounced. I wouldn't say it's wrong to hammer the "t" home, but it sounds clumsy to my ears.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Linguists call it "spelling pronunciation": pronouncing as written, pedantically, despite not hearing it spoken that way. It's silly, but less silly than many other things. Of course, the more it happens, the more other people hear it that way and come to believe it is normal. In some times and places it becomes normal.
jwilk 5y ago
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/correct-pronunciation-of-often https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/correct-pronun... > Often has a medial /t/ that, like similar words such has "hasten" and "soften," was once pronounced and is now typically silent.
srcreigh 5y ago
Same with Toronto. It's really more like Turonno
thaumasiotes 5y ago
> There is also no "t" sound in "often", never was. Some officious busybody thought "offen" and "oft" ought to be related. so put "often" in a dictionary. Now people who don't know any better pronounce it. Hmm? The etymology dictionaries don't appear to back you up on this. > often (adv.): "repeatedly, again and again, many times, under many circumstances," mid-13c., an extended form of oft, in Middle English typically before vowels and h-, probably by influence of its opposite, seldom (Middle English selden). ( https://www.etymonline.com/word/often https://www.etymonline.com/word/often ) > From Middle English often, alteration (with final -n added due to analogy with Middle English selden (“seldom”)) of Middle English ofte, oft, from Old English oft (“oft; often”) ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/often https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/often ) Where did you get the idea that they weren't related?
- ncmncm 5y ago
  The words are obviously related. But that doesn't mean one came from the other.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > The words are obviously related. You just said they weren't...?
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      It's one thing to recognize two words have the same root, and mean the same thing, and something completely different to take a letter from one and stick it in the middle of the other one where it is never pronounced. It's the same thing as debt and doubt. And, now there are people trying to pronounce that letter just because they see it in the word.
      - thaumasiotes 5y ago
        No, "often" is derived directly from "oft". This isn't a case of two words having the same root; it's a case of one word metamorphosing into the other word.

wazari972 5y ago

Native French speaker here, same, I woulnd't pronounce "debt" the same way I would pronounce "dette" in French, and likewise for "doubt", which would turn in French "doute" ...

jgtrosh 5y ago
Shame, since “debt” is pronounced exactly like « dette »
pm215 5y ago
The difference between 'doubt' and 'doute' is the vowel sound, not a presence/absence of 'b'. 'debt' and 'dette' don't sound quite identical to me (as a native English speaker and learner of French) but they're very close and the difference isn't that there's a 'b' sound in there. Maybe it's that French 't' is slightly different.
- housecarpenter 5y ago
  French t is dental, English t is alveolar---in non-technical language, that means the French t is pronounced slightly further forward in your mouth, compared to the English t. The English t is also aspirated a lot of the time (though not as consistently at the end of a word as at the beginning), while the French t is never aspirated. There could be differences between the two short e sounds as well, but that depends more on which particular accents of English/French you're talking about.