10 ms·

The real substantial issue stemming from the litany of problems with sugar isn't that its harmful in high doses, but rather that it is impossible to avoid a die

The real substantial issue stemming from the litany of problems with sugar isn't that its harmful in high doses, but rather that it is impossible to avoid a diet in western society that relies on high quantities of sugar as a lynchpin for mass produced food. -the average breakfast cereal is just a dessert. - even the healthiest breads contain refined sugar to mask quality inherently absent from mass production. - sugar is used for its crispening and browning properties, it's shelf stabilizing abilities and its addictive properties in virtually every processed snack. -most yogurt at the store is just sugar. The industry response to this is a resounding punt. That somehow you're fat because you're irresponsible abdicates so much of the real guilt from multinational food conglomerates driven solely by profit, not nutrition.

wombatmobile 5y ago
> it is impossible to avoid a diet in western society that relies on high quantities of sugar as a lynchpin for mass produced food. I live in the western society you describe and enjoy a diet with no added sugar. How? I prepare my own food from fresh ingredients.
- urthor 5y ago
  Yeah I'm very confused. I think the commenter is just an unimaginative American. If you actually cook food from actual ingredients it's not difficult at all to avoid sugar. You can even bake your own bread.
gruez 5y ago
>but rather that it is impossible to avoid a diet in western society that relies on high quantities of sugar as a lynchpin for mass produced food. just... don't consume the mass produced food with loads of sugar in them? eg. >average breakfast cereal is just a dessert Is non-sweetened cereal hard to find in your supermarket or something? >even the healthiest breads contain refined sugar to mask quality inherently absent from mass production. I checked around on costco and it seems like their "Kirkland Signature Country French" contain 0g of added sugars per serving (I'm guessing slice?). To your point their regular "Multigrain Bread" contains 2g of added sugar per serving. In any case I doubt you're not getting diabetes from that. >- sugar is used for its crispening and browning properties, it's shelf stabilizing abilities and its addictive properties in virtually every processed snack. don't eat snacks then. >-most yogurt at the store is just sugar. just get plain yogurt? "Kirkland Signature Organic Greek Yogurt" has 0g added sugar. I get it's hard to avoid sugar because it tastes so damn good, but let's not pretend it's "impossible to avoid".
- Swizec 5y ago
  > just get plain yogurt? "Kirkland Signature Organic Greek Yogurt" has 0g added sugar This only goes so far. Sometimes manufacturers add lactose to dairy products, or change the balance in favor of lactose, which doesn’t count as added sugars because it occurs naturally in the food. But it’s still sweeter than a comparable plain/unsweetened product if you look at sugar content.
  - pier25 5y ago
    Maybe it doesn't count as added sugar but it should appear in the nutrients label, no?
  - phonypc 5y ago
    Any examples? I'm aware of "ultrafiltered" milk e.g. Fairlife, where they remove lactose, but not heard of adding it. Anyway, lactose is not equivalent to sucrose in terms of health impact.
  - cma 5y ago
    I doubt any yogurts do this as they are often consumed by the lactose intolerant.
- surfpel 5y ago
  The real issue is that not everyone has 7 hours a day to think about their diet (or someone else to do that for them). I tried this and after a month or two, I was burnt out and achieved much less of what I wanted to achieve outside of my diet. So yeah for me with my particular set of goals in life (ie: work, have a life, etc...) it's pretty impossible. I know some people who eat the same healthy foods every day to simplify this, but this is a) not something a lot of people can tolerate, and b) not actually good for you in the long run. Edit: "7 hours???" No it's not literally 7 hours every single day. The point is that it takes a long time to find recipes, cook, clean, shop, etc. But go ahead and miss the point to fixate on a little detail if you want I guess Edit 2: Another thing to consider is that even 'fresh natural healthy non-GMO' ingredients are selectively bred to taste better, resulting in a higher sugar content. This has gotten to the point where it causes issues in zoos [1] [1] https://www.smh.com.au/national/zoo-won-t-panda-to-taste-says-fruit-s-too-sweet-for-its-monkey-menu-20180928-p506lb.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/zoo-won-t-panda-to-taste-say...
DavidPiper 5y ago
While I do agree strongly with your points, I want to call out that it's definitely not impossible to avoid a sugary diet. After watching "That Sugar Film" a few months ago I realised that all I really had to do was ignore 90% of the supermarket shelves. Going shopping with that intent is a great way to discover just how deep your sugar addiction runs.
- bparsons 5y ago
  When you go shopping, only go on the outside aisles. Aside from the bread section, it allows you to avoid most of the bad stuff.
- kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
  Exactly! The outside edges have most of the healthy food: produce, meat, and dairy.
pier25 5y ago
> it is impossible to avoid a diet in western society that relies on high quantities of sugar as a lynchpin for mass produced food "Western society" as in the US and maybe the UK? Because in most other countries people do not rely on mass produced food to feed themselves.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  And India, Pakistan, Australia, Canada, Kenya, Nigeria. Mostly UK and its former colonies. But not exclusively. The public health debacle is worst in the US because the US federal government massively subsidizes production of sugar as a way to use up what of its (also massively subsidized) maize production is not forced on every kind of livestock, or exported. Ironically, regular corn sugar, dextrose, is relatively harmless. It becomes poison only via treatment with the enzyme that turns half of it to fructose.
  - simplestats 5y ago
    The "common sense" about healthy eating in those countries is essentially the same as it has always been in the US, in my lifetime. Where a home-cooked meal is the only healthy option, and that those who consume processed/fast food are ignoring their health in favor of instant gratification (something that has never been seen as a good thing or even ok). The grocery store carries whole grain options like wheat bread (for many decades), butter vs margarine, and half an aisle of vitamins, because such healthy choices are very popular among people who care. If you ignore common knowledge about food, then just as with ignoring advice about exercise, maintaining your teeth, and many other things, you will probably suffer. Good health was never presumed to be the baseline regardless of what one ate, it always took persistence and impulse control. The question is why people are doing such a poor job at it now.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Still, in those countries, metabolic disorder ("fatty liver disease") is almost as common as in the US. But without the obesity, just the illness.
    - 5y ago
TheMagicHorsey 5y ago
I disagree with you strongly. I went on a 0 added sugars diet for one year. My breakfast was primarily toast made from Natures Own brand bread (which is available at Walmart supercenters for a very affordable price), yogurt, and eggs. I make my own yogurt which is EXTREMELY easy to do (I hate to do any cooking and prep and even I can do it). You basically get some yogurt from an Indian store which has live culture (you can eat it or throw it out, but you just need a teaspoon as a starter). You boil milk then let it cool to lukewarm temperature. Stir in the starter yogurt. Then put the light on in your oven and put the yogurt in over night. By next morning it will be yogurt. The purpose of leaving the light on in the oven is to keep the oven warmer than room temperature. You don't need to do that if you don't have cool nights where you live. Dinner and lunch were usually pasta, grilled, cheese, or tuna. BTW, Rao's pasta sauces have no added sugar. They are available for very cheap at Costco. Canned Tuna, ground meat, and fish are also good to get at Costco. Rice as well. Speaking of Costco, get Raw Honey there. Great prices. For snacks I suggest nuts and fruit. I consume a lot of bananas and oranges. Also mangoes when available. Honestly, the only time I was effected by not eating sugar was when people invited me to dinner or restaurant. In those circumstances I often had to just eat what was offered because I could not control the inputs. Saying it's impossible to avoid sugars is a cliche spread by lifestyle agitators. Its only true if you basically want to autopilot through your life ... then yes ... sugar free food will not fall into your open mouth. Sugared foods will fall in.
- phonypc 5y ago
  If you believe adding honey to your food is meaningfully different than white sugar from a metabolic perspective, I have a bridge to sell you.
  - TheMagicHorsey 5y ago
    Read what I wrote carefully. I was not interested in 0 sugar. Only zero added sugars. I don't add honey to everything, besides.
  - foobiekr 5y ago
    It is arguably worse if fructose actually turns out to be the issue.
robg 5y ago
I love the Pollan shorthand: Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants. By food, he means stuff with minimal processing. A potato, not potato chips, fruit not juices, etc. Let how the food is prepared guide your choices as if you were processing it yourself. Consider the difference between you baking a potato vs making potato chips or eating an apple versus you making apple juice. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17725932 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=177259...
- kawera 5y ago
  Love his shorthand too! A few years ago someone posted a reply: Ate plants. A big heap. Still hungry.
  - edanm 5y ago
    This might sound trite but, eat more plants. They are very low in calories in general, it's hard to overeat vegetables.
koolba 5y ago
> most yogurt at the store is just sugar. That’s patently false as the garbage that’s packed with sugar isn’t even yogurt. It’s just pectin and sweetener. Which is a shame because real yogurt is incredibly nutritious and much more delicious.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  It says "yogurt" on the label. How many people do you know who understand the difference?
arvinsim 5y ago
Agreed. It's harder if you are poor because you tend to gravitate towards cheaper items which are usually processed. A lot of anecdotes on avoiding sugar handwave away 1) the time to plan and cook 2) the convenience of having access to healthier options.
throwaway81523 5y ago
> you're fat because you're irresponsible It may also be endocrine disruptors in the environment, from stuff like shampoo making its way into drinking water. Wildlife is also getting fat, despite being no better fed than usual. That suggests some other cause of the obesity.
gumby 5y ago
edanm 5y ago
> The industry response to this is a resounding punt. That somehow you're fat because you're irresponsible abdicates so much of the real guilt from multinational food conglomerates driven solely by profit, not nutrition. I mean, that's partially true and partially false. You do have the choice to not consume products that are bad for you. People change their nutrition and lose weight all the time - it's definitely doable. There certainly is a case to be made for food companies being at least somewhat liable for the obesity epidemic. But I hate to see people promoting a defeatist attitude that puts all the blame on outside parties, if only because I think the message most people need to hear is that it is possible to lose weight if they choose to do so. It's not even very complicated (though it can be hard to implement). It only takes a bit of knowledge and a few choices to make it happen.
specialist 5y ago
Personal tangent: Being home bound during the apocalypse, I finally embraced beans, lentils, squash, etc. Pressure cooker FTW. Mostly as a labor saving measure. Also finally started baking breads, scones, biscuits, pies, etc. I love eating like this. I probably won't go back. Even when I biff (tbh most of the time), stuff is still pretty good fresh out or the oven. To your point: Craving some sweets, I bought some cookies. Ugh, way too sweet. Baking for myself, I cut the sugar to 1/3 to 1/2 of what the recipe says. If I still want more, I just have some jam. TLDR: We habituate to sugar levels.
telxosser 5y ago
It is absurd to say it is impossible to avoid high quantities of sugar. Utterly absurd. Oats are cheaper than any of the brand name cereals. Eggs are super cheap. Beans are super cheap. Bagged spinach and kale is super cheap. Olive oil is super cheap. The only problem with oats is they taste like shit compared to Cap'n Crunch. People could easily eat better but they don't want to because it is far less enjoyable.

wombatmobile 5y ago

> it is impossible to avoid a diet in western society that relies on high quantities of sugar as a lynchpin for mass produced food. I live in the western society you describe and enjoy a diet with no added sugar. How? I prepare my own food from fresh ingredients.

urthor 5y ago
Yeah I'm very confused. I think the commenter is just an unimaginative American. If you actually cook food from actual ingredients it's not difficult at all to avoid sugar. You can even bake your own bread.

gruez 5y ago

>but rather that it is impossible to avoid a diet in western society that relies on high quantities of sugar as a lynchpin for mass produced food. just... don't consume the mass produced food with loads of sugar in them? eg. >average breakfast cereal is just a dessert Is non-sweetened cereal hard to find in your supermarket or something? >even the healthiest breads contain refined sugar to mask quality inherently absent from mass production. I checked around on costco and it seems like their "Kirkland Signature Country French" contain 0g of added sugars per serving (I'm guessing slice?). To your point their regular "Multigrain Bread" contains 2g of added sugar per serving. In any case I doubt you're not getting diabetes from that. >- sugar is used for its crispening and browning properties, it's shelf stabilizing abilities and its addictive properties in virtually every processed snack. don't eat snacks then. >-most yogurt at the store is just sugar. just get plain yogurt? "Kirkland Signature Organic Greek Yogurt" has 0g added sugar. I get it's hard to avoid sugar because it tastes so damn good, but let's not pretend it's "impossible to avoid".

Swizec 5y ago
> just get plain yogurt? "Kirkland Signature Organic Greek Yogurt" has 0g added sugar This only goes so far. Sometimes manufacturers add lactose to dairy products, or change the balance in favor of lactose, which doesn’t count as added sugars because it occurs naturally in the food. But it’s still sweeter than a comparable plain/unsweetened product if you look at sugar content.
- pier25 5y ago
  Maybe it doesn't count as added sugar but it should appear in the nutrients label, no?
- phonypc 5y ago
  Any examples? I'm aware of "ultrafiltered" milk e.g. Fairlife, where they remove lactose, but not heard of adding it. Anyway, lactose is not equivalent to sucrose in terms of health impact.
- cma 5y ago
  I doubt any yogurts do this as they are often consumed by the lactose intolerant.
surfpel 5y ago
The real issue is that not everyone has 7 hours a day to think about their diet (or someone else to do that for them). I tried this and after a month or two, I was burnt out and achieved much less of what I wanted to achieve outside of my diet. So yeah for me with my particular set of goals in life (ie: work, have a life, etc...) it's pretty impossible. I know some people who eat the same healthy foods every day to simplify this, but this is a) not something a lot of people can tolerate, and b) not actually good for you in the long run. Edit: "7 hours???" No it's not literally 7 hours every single day. The point is that it takes a long time to find recipes, cook, clean, shop, etc. But go ahead and miss the point to fixate on a little detail if you want I guess Edit 2: Another thing to consider is that even 'fresh natural healthy non-GMO' ingredients are selectively bred to taste better, resulting in a higher sugar content. This has gotten to the point where it causes issues in zoos [1] [1] https://www.smh.com.au/national/zoo-won-t-panda-to-taste-says-fruit-s-too-sweet-for-its-monkey-menu-20180928-p506lb.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/zoo-won-t-panda-to-taste-say...

DavidPiper 5y ago

While I do agree strongly with your points, I want to call out that it's definitely not impossible to avoid a sugary diet. After watching "That Sugar Film" a few months ago I realised that all I really had to do was ignore 90% of the supermarket shelves. Going shopping with that intent is a great way to discover just how deep your sugar addiction runs.

bparsons 5y ago
When you go shopping, only go on the outside aisles. Aside from the bread section, it allows you to avoid most of the bad stuff.
kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
Exactly! The outside edges have most of the healthy food: produce, meat, and dairy.

pier25 5y ago

> it is impossible to avoid a diet in western society that relies on high quantities of sugar as a lynchpin for mass produced food "Western society" as in the US and maybe the UK? Because in most other countries people do not rely on mass produced food to feed themselves.

ncmncm 5y ago
And India, Pakistan, Australia, Canada, Kenya, Nigeria. Mostly UK and its former colonies. But not exclusively. The public health debacle is worst in the US because the US federal government massively subsidizes production of sugar as a way to use up what of its (also massively subsidized) maize production is not forced on every kind of livestock, or exported. Ironically, regular corn sugar, dextrose, is relatively harmless. It becomes poison only via treatment with the enzyme that turns half of it to fructose.
- simplestats 5y ago
  The "common sense" about healthy eating in those countries is essentially the same as it has always been in the US, in my lifetime. Where a home-cooked meal is the only healthy option, and that those who consume processed/fast food are ignoring their health in favor of instant gratification (something that has never been seen as a good thing or even ok). The grocery store carries whole grain options like wheat bread (for many decades), butter vs margarine, and half an aisle of vitamins, because such healthy choices are very popular among people who care. If you ignore common knowledge about food, then just as with ignoring advice about exercise, maintaining your teeth, and many other things, you will probably suffer. Good health was never presumed to be the baseline regardless of what one ate, it always took persistence and impulse control. The question is why people are doing such a poor job at it now.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Still, in those countries, metabolic disorder ("fatty liver disease") is almost as common as in the US. But without the obesity, just the illness.
  - 5y ago

TheMagicHorsey 5y ago

I disagree with you strongly. I went on a 0 added sugars diet for one year. My breakfast was primarily toast made from Natures Own brand bread (which is available at Walmart supercenters for a very affordable price), yogurt, and eggs. I make my own yogurt which is EXTREMELY easy to do (I hate to do any cooking and prep and even I can do it). You basically get some yogurt from an Indian store which has live culture (you can eat it or throw it out, but you just need a teaspoon as a starter). You boil milk then let it cool to lukewarm temperature. Stir in the starter yogurt. Then put the light on in your oven and put the yogurt in over night. By next morning it will be yogurt. The purpose of leaving the light on in the oven is to keep the oven warmer than room temperature. You don't need to do that if you don't have cool nights where you live. Dinner and lunch were usually pasta, grilled, cheese, or tuna. BTW, Rao's pasta sauces have no added sugar. They are available for very cheap at Costco. Canned Tuna, ground meat, and fish are also good to get at Costco. Rice as well. Speaking of Costco, get Raw Honey there. Great prices. For snacks I suggest nuts and fruit. I consume a lot of bananas and oranges. Also mangoes when available. Honestly, the only time I was effected by not eating sugar was when people invited me to dinner or restaurant. In those circumstances I often had to just eat what was offered because I could not control the inputs. Saying it's impossible to avoid sugars is a cliche spread by lifestyle agitators. Its only true if you basically want to autopilot through your life ... then yes ... sugar free food will not fall into your open mouth. Sugared foods will fall in.

phonypc 5y ago
If you believe adding honey to your food is meaningfully different than white sugar from a metabolic perspective, I have a bridge to sell you.
- TheMagicHorsey 5y ago
  Read what I wrote carefully. I was not interested in 0 sugar. Only zero added sugars. I don't add honey to everything, besides.
- foobiekr 5y ago
  It is arguably worse if fructose actually turns out to be the issue.

robg 5y ago

I love the Pollan shorthand: Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants. By food, he means stuff with minimal processing. A potato, not potato chips, fruit not juices, etc. Let how the food is prepared guide your choices as if you were processing it yourself. Consider the difference between you baking a potato vs making potato chips or eating an apple versus you making apple juice. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17725932 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=177259...

kawera 5y ago
Love his shorthand too! A few years ago someone posted a reply: Ate plants. A big heap. Still hungry.
- edanm 5y ago
  This might sound trite but, eat more plants. They are very low in calories in general, it's hard to overeat vegetables.

koolba 5y ago

> most yogurt at the store is just sugar. That’s patently false as the garbage that’s packed with sugar isn’t even yogurt. It’s just pectin and sweetener. Which is a shame because real yogurt is incredibly nutritious and much more delicious.

ncmncm 5y ago
It says "yogurt" on the label. How many people do you know who understand the difference?

arvinsim 5y ago

Agreed. It's harder if you are poor because you tend to gravitate towards cheaper items which are usually processed. A lot of anecdotes on avoiding sugar handwave away 1) the time to plan and cook 2) the convenience of having access to healthier options.

throwaway81523 5y ago

> you're fat because you're irresponsible It may also be endocrine disruptors in the environment, from stuff like shampoo making its way into drinking water. Wildlife is also getting fat, despite being no better fed than usual. That suggests some other cause of the obesity.

gumby 5y ago

edanm 5y ago

> The industry response to this is a resounding punt. That somehow you're fat because you're irresponsible abdicates so much of the real guilt from multinational food conglomerates driven solely by profit, not nutrition. I mean, that's partially true and partially false. You do have the choice to not consume products that are bad for you. People change their nutrition and lose weight all the time - it's definitely doable. There certainly is a case to be made for food companies being at least somewhat liable for the obesity epidemic. But I hate to see people promoting a defeatist attitude that puts all the blame on outside parties, if only because I think the message most people need to hear is that it is possible to lose weight if they choose to do so. It's not even very complicated (though it can be hard to implement). It only takes a bit of knowledge and a few choices to make it happen.

specialist 5y ago

Personal tangent: Being home bound during the apocalypse, I finally embraced beans, lentils, squash, etc. Pressure cooker FTW. Mostly as a labor saving measure. Also finally started baking breads, scones, biscuits, pies, etc. I love eating like this. I probably won't go back. Even when I biff (tbh most of the time), stuff is still pretty good fresh out or the oven. To your point: Craving some sweets, I bought some cookies. Ugh, way too sweet. Baking for myself, I cut the sugar to 1/3 to 1/2 of what the recipe says. If I still want more, I just have some jam. TLDR: We habituate to sugar levels.

telxosser 5y ago

It is absurd to say it is impossible to avoid high quantities of sugar. Utterly absurd. Oats are cheaper than any of the brand name cereals. Eggs are super cheap. Beans are super cheap. Bagged spinach and kale is super cheap. Olive oil is super cheap. The only problem with oats is they taste like shit compared to Cap'n Crunch. People could easily eat better but they don't want to because it is far less enjoyable.