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Except at political groups to which I belong, I am almost always the left-most person in the room. The Lefts greatest weakness is an enthusiasm for splintering

Except at political groups to which I belong, I am almost always the left-most person in the room. The Lefts greatest weakness is an enthusiasm for splintering over small matters of doctrine. Identity politics, tribalism over principle, virtue signaling, whatever fad this is, it's deeply hurting progress.

wussboy 5y ago
I suspect you’re right. My personal solution to this problem, having once run a left-leaning organization that was taken over by all the things you mention, is to learn more towards the centre. I’m curious if you’ve considered the same, especially because you describe yourself as “the left-most person in the room”?
- CapitalistCartr 5y ago
  In the United States the Overton Window is so far right even the Democratic Party is center-right. In a Scandinavian Country I'd be a fairly moderate, conservative social democrat. Here, if people knew my thoughts, I'd be seen as a Wild-Eyed Radical. But given the politics in my country, I've given up compromise and actually moved further Left. And more militant, less quiet. Luckily, the organization I'm currently involved with (the SRA), while hilariously disorganized, is firmly Left.
  - laszlojamf 5y ago
    I don't mean this as any kind kind of criticism, but being a swede with an American friend who was partially brought up in Sweden during the good ol days of Swedish social democracy I wonder if Americans really know what they mean when they talk about Scandinavian social democracy. These days they're a lot more conservative than they used to be. Mostly I imagine their stance on immigration control, and crime wouldn't be what Americans have in mind. Or maybe you do! All I'm saying is that it's interesting hearing it come up a lot in American discussions as if it's its own thing when really they're quite the moving target. EDIT: but i guess for you guys it might be more single-payor healthcare and reasonable taxation in which case, yeah, some things haven't changed :)
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      Almost exclusively when Americans talk about Sweden being "left" they are talking about economic issues. Parental leave (480 days!) mandated by the state, single-payer healthcare, free college, huge amounts of vacation time (8+ weeks on average, 34 days by law!), assistance with childcare, etc. Compare that to the US with a mandatory rehiring after taking unpaid maternity (only) leave of up to 12 weeks, a complex healthcare system which causes people to go into debt, expensive college costing tens of thousands a semester, 0 (yes zero) vacation time by law, etc. (I should note that some states goes further than that, but it's very dependent on the state and the most liberal example might be California's generous 6-week paternity policy.) Anyone advocating any of the economic policies from Sweden I described in the US would be described in the same breath as Bernie Sanders and Fidel Castro.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    On social stuff, California is well left of Europe including Scandinavia. What you say could apply in Arkansas. For example, Danish or Norwegian immigration rules would be a perfect fit for any R president, perhaps even too strict.
    - lazyasciiart 5y ago
      This is reductive to the point of being incorrect. "Social stuff" includes things like maternity leave, childcare, healthcare, incarceration and drug policies. California is proud that they ended sentences of life-without-parole for children in 2017 - and replaced it with life-with-possible-parole-after-25-years, which remains far worse than Denmark permits even for the worst adult crime (life with possible parole after 12 years).
      - inglor_cz 5y ago
        Fine, I meant "woke stuff" that excites Twitter so much and makes so many non-Twitterati confused and perplexed. What you mention used to be a typical left-wing agenda, but is increasingly being utterly forgotten by the younger generations of left-wing politicians.
        jtbayly 5y ago
        Exactly. The context being the discussion of the article where that's made clear.
      - chongli 5y ago
        You must have missed the news on Chesa Boudin [1], San Francisco's district attorney. He's so far extreme left that criminals essentially have free rein in the city because his office refuses to prosecute anyone. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin
  - citilife 5y ago
    > In the United States the Overton Window is so far right even the Democratic Party is center-right. I'm sorry, but what? Within the party, they've promoted universal basic income (marxisim), state healthcare, universal education, etc. It's almost completely authoritarian marxist. They're far left of most of Europe in terms of social policy (LGBTQ+ rights, abortion, drugs, etc) and economic (complete universal education, health, payments, work, etc) If that's center-left what is left, exactly?
    - AlexandrB 5y ago
      Let's take the example of state healthcare. The Democratic Party talks a big game about universal healthcare at election time, but only ever proposes modest reforms (like the ACA) when it's time to craft policy. Meanwhile many (all?) European countries actually have some form of state-run or state-funded universal healthcare. The Democrat Party is only "far left" if you believe their wildest election rhetoric and don't judge them on their actions. To call them authoritarian marxist is ridiculous when they fail time and time again to reign in corporate power and are financially beholden to that same power.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > The Democratic Party talks a big game about universal healthcare at election time No, it doesn't, at least if you are talking about general elections since the failure of Clinton's reforms in the 1990s. Since then, it's talked about moderate mitigations of the problem of massive gaps in the healthcare system, or, more recently, simply about not continuing dismantling past progress on that issue.
    - disentanglement 5y ago
      Your comment calling political measures which are universally accepted across the entire range of politics in Europe (state healthcare, universal education, ...) authoritarian marxist is a hilarious example of what the top poster meant by "the Overton Window is so far right even the Democratic Party is center-right".
      - 5y ago
tgv 5y ago
The right and the religious are also known to splinter over small differences. I see it as a trait of fanaticism, and an indication of tendency towards extremism.
- wussboy 5y ago
  Agreed. It is a human quality, not a Left or Right quality.
  - carlivar 5y ago
    Indeed, the notion that a single axis can represent people's views and values is laughable.
digianarchist 5y ago
People act as if this is a new thing. We’ve been doing this for decades. Hence the People’s Front of Judea gag in Life of Brian.
- pyuser583 5y ago
  I think that was more the far lefts propensity to engage in ideological warfare because they were so far from actual power. They had nothing better to do than draw up lists of heretics and excommunicate them.
nefitty 5y ago
Peter Thiel (gay man), Caitlyn Jenner (trans woman) and Kanye West (black man) all publicly support Donald Trump. It's not identity that's the issue, it's economic inequality. Even as part of marginalized groups, these people's vast wealth allowed them the luxury to support a man who did not have marginalized group's best interests in mind. If I was rich and wanted to take over a local government, I would channel my efforts toward dividing people on everything except economic class. Yeah, you're both poor and live in squalor next to the train tracks, but you're different races! How could you possibly get along!
- david38 5y ago
  This. IMO, most of the culture was a distraction from what really matters. People are up in arms on TV over who can claim to be a woman, but meanwhile, the concentration of wealth and economic power and worse than even the guided age. If the bottom 50% of the population (economically) united on JUST this topic, they would see massive change - better structured education, housing, health, etc. Instead we get what I call "hand grenades" that distract and mean almost nothing - like another biological male smashing records in a female sport and wanting to keep the medals.
  - onemoresoop 5y ago
    I share a similar opinion. Everything and every group's voice should be heard at some point but not in a more divisive manner and to the detriment of attention to the immediate problems that affect us all in the most serious ways: housing, healthcare, wages, political corruption, conflicts of interest, and so on. We're in very bad shape and a risk major collapse. If we continue down this path we'll see homelessness and and inequality rise to catastrophic levels. What we really need at this point more than anything is some form of unity.
    - tdeck 5y ago
      > Everything and every group's voice should be heard at some point but not in a more divisive manner and to the detriment of attention to the immediate problems that affect us all The problem with this line of thinking is that there's a pattern to which peoples' issues are considered mainstream (i.e. they affect "us all") and which group's issues are considered divisive and a "distraction". But if you're in a marginalized minority group, those "distractions" may be your biggest problems every day. "Not yet" is practically the same as "no" and some folks are tired of waiting, so if you want unity you've got to build it by acknowledging those problems and support those people. Otherwise "unity" always comes at the expense of the same people.
david38 5y ago
Broadly speaking, the left likes to go come up with new ways of doing things, the right likes to implement the "tried and true". Almost by definition, this means the left is always trying many things (always need the next new thing) and the right is consolidating on what they perceive to be the best of the tried and true.
- wussboy 5y ago
  The antipathy between “try something new” and “stick with what works” is so frustrating because they so clearly go hand in hand. “If the Left wing or the Right wing ever got control of this country, it would fly around in circles.”
  - kennywinker 5y ago
    This is a classic centrist position - the left and the right are both radical, pick a point halfway between and you're good - but I would argue that the US and Canada have been largely ruled by centrism for the past 30 years and things have been getting worse and worse in that time.
    - netizen-936824 5y ago
      In trying to make everyone happy, progress slows to a crawl because nobody can agree. Too many people have too many different perspectives, but people don't realise how very different others perceive reality
- Wiseacre 5y ago
  That doesn't match up with reality. Take climate change for example. The left was fine with coal until it became proven that it is a major accelerant to climate change. It isn't change for the sake of change. In a similar vein, the right may choose an action because it is convenient, not necessarily because it is tried and true. Not only does what you say not follow, it describes nothing by definition. That being said it isn't a good look to simplify these perspectives as "the left" and "the right" as people do not really act within the confines of those labels.
SavantIdiot 5y ago
> an enthusiasm for splintering over small matters of doctrine. Identity politics, tribalism over principle, virtue signaling, whatever fad this is, I question your assertion that you are "leftist" when you describe progressive thought in dismissive, inflammatory, right-wing terms.
- lazyasciiart 5y ago
  They called themselves 'left-most in the room', not 'leftist'.
- wussboy 5y ago
  I’m not sure if you’re being serious or not. If so, your comment is deeply ironic.
onphonenow 5y ago
Max dem donor, historically very "left" as well. This is an issue on both sides in the extreme. On the right just look at what to outsiders are TINY doctrinal differences in things like faith issues - have historically driven major internal divisions. I always thought the American left would really endure / have the advantage long term because of what seemed like a healthier exchange of ideas (free speech support etc). That has changed it feels like a bit. If you don't support the cause de jour (abolish ice / defund the police / violence at protests) or other orthodoxy there really isn't a place for you. And despite the talk of love and acceptance, the left really seems to be driven by hate and outrage now more than I remember plus a very healthy dose of hypocrisy. Ie, defund police, unless a poor person shoes up on my doorstep - then I'm calling! AOC jetting off to florida in the midst of a massive surge in NY? The irony (she made fun of others jetting off during crisis, and florida is the anti-NY in terms of COVID approach). Newsome and his lobbyist dinner unmasked inside while ordering lockdowns? It's annoying to have such harsh rhetoric from leaders (ie, they promised to destroy any doctor who gave vaccine to anyone but the anointed few) but then relatively unprincipled action by them (they go out and party, dine, get vaccines for themselves). I'm hoping the next generation has a good take on this.
- gopher_space 5y ago
  > And despite the talk of love and acceptance, the left really seems to be driven by hate and outrage now more than I remember plus a very healthy dose of hypocrisy. Sounds like you're talking yourself into giving Nazis a "fair shake". Why would you do that?
  - onphonenow 5y ago
    What does this have to do with Nazis? Is the claim that the left is being fascist or the right is? Ie, who bum rushes someone off the stage these days - is that a left wing thing or right wing or both? Is this claim meant to undermine my claim around the extremism now in the left and right?
- abernard1 5y ago
  > I'm hoping the next generation has a good take on this. I believe the current generation has a good take on this: when your identity becomes enmeshed in a political religion, the creation of differences is mandatory to support your vision. This necessity of finding a cause or something to believe in—the need for baddies and an existential battle of good vs evil—will exist in perpetuity on the left. If there are no baddies, they must be created. The origin of "the left" in America is a road through the Darwinian origins of Progressivism which, along with its gross support of racial anthropology, believed in a better class of men to administer a society they believed incompetent. It then moved down the meandering corridor of postmodern Marxism in academia which took as an article of faith that dishonesty was required for social change. We're now at the weapons-grade, enriched version of that belief with Wokeness where the adherents privately believe they are better people, qualified to manage society's past ills but then publicly disown the idea when confronted. Unless the cultural left in America wants to disown over a century of believing they are superior, the orthodoxy is here to stay. There is no difference between Wilsonian progressives and the modern day woke other than transparency and visibility into the worldview.

wussboy 5y ago

I suspect you’re right. My personal solution to this problem, having once run a left-leaning organization that was taken over by all the things you mention, is to learn more towards the centre. I’m curious if you’ve considered the same, especially because you describe yourself as “the left-most person in the room”?

CapitalistCartr 5y ago
In the United States the Overton Window is so far right even the Democratic Party is center-right. In a Scandinavian Country I'd be a fairly moderate, conservative social democrat. Here, if people knew my thoughts, I'd be seen as a Wild-Eyed Radical. But given the politics in my country, I've given up compromise and actually moved further Left. And more militant, less quiet. Luckily, the organization I'm currently involved with (the SRA), while hilariously disorganized, is firmly Left.
- laszlojamf 5y ago
  I don't mean this as any kind kind of criticism, but being a swede with an American friend who was partially brought up in Sweden during the good ol days of Swedish social democracy I wonder if Americans really know what they mean when they talk about Scandinavian social democracy. These days they're a lot more conservative than they used to be. Mostly I imagine their stance on immigration control, and crime wouldn't be what Americans have in mind. Or maybe you do! All I'm saying is that it's interesting hearing it come up a lot in American discussions as if it's its own thing when really they're quite the moving target. EDIT: but i guess for you guys it might be more single-payor healthcare and reasonable taxation in which case, yeah, some things haven't changed :)
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    Almost exclusively when Americans talk about Sweden being "left" they are talking about economic issues. Parental leave (480 days!) mandated by the state, single-payer healthcare, free college, huge amounts of vacation time (8+ weeks on average, 34 days by law!), assistance with childcare, etc. Compare that to the US with a mandatory rehiring after taking unpaid maternity (only) leave of up to 12 weeks, a complex healthcare system which causes people to go into debt, expensive college costing tens of thousands a semester, 0 (yes zero) vacation time by law, etc. (I should note that some states goes further than that, but it's very dependent on the state and the most liberal example might be California's generous 6-week paternity policy.) Anyone advocating any of the economic policies from Sweden I described in the US would be described in the same breath as Bernie Sanders and Fidel Castro.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  On social stuff, California is well left of Europe including Scandinavia. What you say could apply in Arkansas. For example, Danish or Norwegian immigration rules would be a perfect fit for any R president, perhaps even too strict.
  - lazyasciiart 5y ago
    This is reductive to the point of being incorrect. "Social stuff" includes things like maternity leave, childcare, healthcare, incarceration and drug policies. California is proud that they ended sentences of life-without-parole for children in 2017 - and replaced it with life-with-possible-parole-after-25-years, which remains far worse than Denmark permits even for the worst adult crime (life with possible parole after 12 years).
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      Fine, I meant "woke stuff" that excites Twitter so much and makes so many non-Twitterati confused and perplexed. What you mention used to be a typical left-wing agenda, but is increasingly being utterly forgotten by the younger generations of left-wing politicians.
      - jtbayly 5y ago
        Exactly. The context being the discussion of the article where that's made clear.
    - chongli 5y ago
      You must have missed the news on Chesa Boudin [1], San Francisco's district attorney. He's so far extreme left that criminals essentially have free rein in the city because his office refuses to prosecute anyone. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesa_Boudin
- citilife 5y ago
  > In the United States the Overton Window is so far right even the Democratic Party is center-right. I'm sorry, but what? Within the party, they've promoted universal basic income (marxisim), state healthcare, universal education, etc. It's almost completely authoritarian marxist. They're far left of most of Europe in terms of social policy (LGBTQ+ rights, abortion, drugs, etc) and economic (complete universal education, health, payments, work, etc) If that's center-left what is left, exactly?
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    Let's take the example of state healthcare. The Democratic Party talks a big game about universal healthcare at election time, but only ever proposes modest reforms (like the ACA) when it's time to craft policy. Meanwhile many (all?) European countries actually have some form of state-run or state-funded universal healthcare. The Democrat Party is only "far left" if you believe their wildest election rhetoric and don't judge them on their actions. To call them authoritarian marxist is ridiculous when they fail time and time again to reign in corporate power and are financially beholden to that same power.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > The Democratic Party talks a big game about universal healthcare at election time No, it doesn't, at least if you are talking about general elections since the failure of Clinton's reforms in the 1990s. Since then, it's talked about moderate mitigations of the problem of massive gaps in the healthcare system, or, more recently, simply about not continuing dismantling past progress on that issue.
  - disentanglement 5y ago
    Your comment calling political measures which are universally accepted across the entire range of politics in Europe (state healthcare, universal education, ...) authoritarian marxist is a hilarious example of what the top poster meant by "the Overton Window is so far right even the Democratic Party is center-right".
    - 5y ago

tgv 5y ago

The right and the religious are also known to splinter over small differences. I see it as a trait of fanaticism, and an indication of tendency towards extremism.

wussboy 5y ago
Agreed. It is a human quality, not a Left or Right quality.
- carlivar 5y ago
  Indeed, the notion that a single axis can represent people's views and values is laughable.

digianarchist 5y ago

People act as if this is a new thing. We’ve been doing this for decades. Hence the People’s Front of Judea gag in Life of Brian.

pyuser583 5y ago
I think that was more the far lefts propensity to engage in ideological warfare because they were so far from actual power. They had nothing better to do than draw up lists of heretics and excommunicate them.

nefitty 5y ago

Peter Thiel (gay man), Caitlyn Jenner (trans woman) and Kanye West (black man) all publicly support Donald Trump. It's not identity that's the issue, it's economic inequality. Even as part of marginalized groups, these people's vast wealth allowed them the luxury to support a man who did not have marginalized group's best interests in mind. If I was rich and wanted to take over a local government, I would channel my efforts toward dividing people on everything except economic class. Yeah, you're both poor and live in squalor next to the train tracks, but you're different races! How could you possibly get along!

david38 5y ago
This. IMO, most of the culture was a distraction from what really matters. People are up in arms on TV over who can claim to be a woman, but meanwhile, the concentration of wealth and economic power and worse than even the guided age. If the bottom 50% of the population (economically) united on JUST this topic, they would see massive change - better structured education, housing, health, etc. Instead we get what I call "hand grenades" that distract and mean almost nothing - like another biological male smashing records in a female sport and wanting to keep the medals.
- onemoresoop 5y ago
  I share a similar opinion. Everything and every group's voice should be heard at some point but not in a more divisive manner and to the detriment of attention to the immediate problems that affect us all in the most serious ways: housing, healthcare, wages, political corruption, conflicts of interest, and so on. We're in very bad shape and a risk major collapse. If we continue down this path we'll see homelessness and and inequality rise to catastrophic levels. What we really need at this point more than anything is some form of unity.
  - tdeck 5y ago
    > Everything and every group's voice should be heard at some point but not in a more divisive manner and to the detriment of attention to the immediate problems that affect us all The problem with this line of thinking is that there's a pattern to which peoples' issues are considered mainstream (i.e. they affect "us all") and which group's issues are considered divisive and a "distraction". But if you're in a marginalized minority group, those "distractions" may be your biggest problems every day. "Not yet" is practically the same as "no" and some folks are tired of waiting, so if you want unity you've got to build it by acknowledging those problems and support those people. Otherwise "unity" always comes at the expense of the same people.

david38 5y ago

Broadly speaking, the left likes to go come up with new ways of doing things, the right likes to implement the "tried and true". Almost by definition, this means the left is always trying many things (always need the next new thing) and the right is consolidating on what they perceive to be the best of the tried and true.

wussboy 5y ago
The antipathy between “try something new” and “stick with what works” is so frustrating because they so clearly go hand in hand. “If the Left wing or the Right wing ever got control of this country, it would fly around in circles.”
- kennywinker 5y ago
  This is a classic centrist position - the left and the right are both radical, pick a point halfway between and you're good - but I would argue that the US and Canada have been largely ruled by centrism for the past 30 years and things have been getting worse and worse in that time.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    In trying to make everyone happy, progress slows to a crawl because nobody can agree. Too many people have too many different perspectives, but people don't realise how very different others perceive reality
Wiseacre 5y ago
That doesn't match up with reality. Take climate change for example. The left was fine with coal until it became proven that it is a major accelerant to climate change. It isn't change for the sake of change. In a similar vein, the right may choose an action because it is convenient, not necessarily because it is tried and true. Not only does what you say not follow, it describes nothing by definition. That being said it isn't a good look to simplify these perspectives as "the left" and "the right" as people do not really act within the confines of those labels.

SavantIdiot 5y ago

> an enthusiasm for splintering over small matters of doctrine. Identity politics, tribalism over principle, virtue signaling, whatever fad this is, I question your assertion that you are "leftist" when you describe progressive thought in dismissive, inflammatory, right-wing terms.

lazyasciiart 5y ago
They called themselves 'left-most in the room', not 'leftist'.
wussboy 5y ago
I’m not sure if you’re being serious or not. If so, your comment is deeply ironic.

onphonenow 5y ago

Max dem donor, historically very "left" as well. This is an issue on both sides in the extreme. On the right just look at what to outsiders are TINY doctrinal differences in things like faith issues - have historically driven major internal divisions. I always thought the American left would really endure / have the advantage long term because of what seemed like a healthier exchange of ideas (free speech support etc). That has changed it feels like a bit. If you don't support the cause de jour (abolish ice / defund the police / violence at protests) or other orthodoxy there really isn't a place for you. And despite the talk of love and acceptance, the left really seems to be driven by hate and outrage now more than I remember plus a very healthy dose of hypocrisy. Ie, defund police, unless a poor person shoes up on my doorstep - then I'm calling! AOC jetting off to florida in the midst of a massive surge in NY? The irony (she made fun of others jetting off during crisis, and florida is the anti-NY in terms of COVID approach). Newsome and his lobbyist dinner unmasked inside while ordering lockdowns? It's annoying to have such harsh rhetoric from leaders (ie, they promised to destroy any doctor who gave vaccine to anyone but the anointed few) but then relatively unprincipled action by them (they go out and party, dine, get vaccines for themselves). I'm hoping the next generation has a good take on this.

gopher_space 5y ago
> And despite the talk of love and acceptance, the left really seems to be driven by hate and outrage now more than I remember plus a very healthy dose of hypocrisy. Sounds like you're talking yourself into giving Nazis a "fair shake". Why would you do that?
- onphonenow 5y ago
  What does this have to do with Nazis? Is the claim that the left is being fascist or the right is? Ie, who bum rushes someone off the stage these days - is that a left wing thing or right wing or both? Is this claim meant to undermine my claim around the extremism now in the left and right?
abernard1 5y ago
> I'm hoping the next generation has a good take on this. I believe the current generation has a good take on this: when your identity becomes enmeshed in a political religion, the creation of differences is mandatory to support your vision. This necessity of finding a cause or something to believe in—the need for baddies and an existential battle of good vs evil—will exist in perpetuity on the left. If there are no baddies, they must be created. The origin of "the left" in America is a road through the Darwinian origins of Progressivism which, along with its gross support of racial anthropology, believed in a better class of men to administer a society they believed incompetent. It then moved down the meandering corridor of postmodern Marxism in academia which took as an article of faith that dishonesty was required for social change. We're now at the weapons-grade, enriched version of that belief with Wokeness where the adherents privately believe they are better people, qualified to manage society's past ills but then publicly disown the idea when confronted. Unless the cultural left in America wants to disown over a century of believing they are superior, the orthodoxy is here to stay. There is no difference between Wilsonian progressives and the modern day woke other than transparency and visibility into the worldview.