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I work in the web3/blockchain world. And I don’t really care if any of it takes off. I have no interest in crypto or the politics surrounding all of this. For

I work in the web3/blockchain world. And I don’t really care if any of it takes off. I have no interest in crypto or the politics surrounding all of this. For me, it’s something new and interesting. It’s like the Wild West. It has some energy behind it. Is most of it a scam? Sure. But will we learn anything from it? Hopefully. I think of it like Product Hunt. 99% of the projects will fail, but 100% of the people probably learned something useful.

wedn3sday 5y ago
It would be nice if it didnt have the carbon footprint of Argentina to produce something of no value.
- plebianRube 5y ago
- cslarson 5y ago
  Researchers and devs have been and continue to work incredibly hard to ensure this stops being the case some time mid year 2022.
  - politelemon 5y ago
    Could you explain or link to what you mean? What's happening in mid 22, and are all crypto currencies involved?
    - kristofferR 5y ago
      Ethereum is moving to proof of stake instead of mining, that will remove all superfluous carbon emissions. When we're talking about web3, we're generally talking about Ethereum: https://web3js.readthedocs.io https://web3js.readthedocs.io
    - paulgb 5y ago
      Probably referring to Ethereum moving to proof-of-stake, which is set to happen in June https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/08/ethereum-is-slated-for-another-upgrade-this-week-heres-what-to-know.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/08/ethereum-is-slated-for-anoth... It's been delayed before, but hopefully it happens this time. I don't own any, but it would be nice for GPU prices to normalize and the environmental cost would go down substantially.
    - DennisP 5y ago
      Ethereum is switching off its mining in favor of another consensus system called "proof-of-stake." Basically the mining hardware and electricity are replaced by the currency itself. There's a consensus protocol that works if people don't cheat in certain ways, it's provable if someone cheats, and the "miners" lock some ETH into the system as a security bond. If someone submits a proof that you cheated then you lose your bond. Energy consumption will drop by an estimated 99.95%. Most web3 stuff runs on Ethereum, which is the second-biggest energy consumer in crypto. Bitcoin is the biggest and has no plans to move to proof-of-stake, but isn't really involved in web3. Ethereum's proof-of-stake protocol has been running in parallel for a year with billions of dollars in real ETH deposited, and for the merged system there's a multi-client testnet running.
      - the_gastropod 5y ago
        We’ve been hearing this tune for several years now. Ethereum was originally planned to move to PoS in January 2020. That date was blown and many dates projected since have also been missed. Repeating this “the end is near!” argument in response to very valid concerns about the environmental impact is getting a bit old.
        DennisP 5y ago
        Yes, I expect to see these "dates have been missed before" comments up to the day it hits production. There's a big difference between "we have a design worked out and think it will take this long" and "we've been running the new system in production for a year, merging it with the old system is relatively easy, and we've got all the clients running the merge together on a public test network." Historically, anything they've gotten to the point of a multi-client testnet has taken well under a year to go live.
        paulryanrogers 5y ago
        Did you mean "well over a year"?
        5y ago
  - pavel_lishin 5y ago
    The promised land has always been six months in the future, for the past few years.
    - serverholic 5y ago
      It’s in testing right now.
- WaxedChewbacca 5y ago
truculent 5y ago
What are the most promising use-cases in your experience?
- henvic 5y ago
  Probably being an early adopter and cashing out before it's too late lol
  - wedn3sday 5y ago
    this is not the kind of comment that makes hackernews a good place to have a conversation.
    - cbozeman 5y ago
      Given the amount of rampant fraud that's occurring in the crypto spaces, I don't see how you can't at least entertain this as a serious notion.
    - davidgerard 5y ago
      It is an accurate and concise summary of the situation, and thus provides value in the discussion.
- sktrdie 5y ago
  I mean conceptually the idea is "money without intermediaries" which is quite fascinating. But when you stop and think about it for a sec you realize that we need intermediaries or else the richer will become unstoppable kings with control that cannot be deflated.
  - mockingbirdy 5y ago
    > But when you stop and think about it for a sec you realize that we need intermediaries or else the richer will become unstoppable kings with control that cannot be deflated. I agree. This is something that I'm not sure people who go into crypto fully understand with the resulting consequences. The FED is basically printing money and I can understand people who don't agree with the inflationary mechanism that is built into fiat currencies - this is one of the main criticisms of the fiat system because it's debt-based. On the other hand, having no means to get taxes (because of anonymous currencies like Monero and anonymous wallets) and having no control over the currency is a safe way to a plutocracy. Some would argue that we're already living in a plutocracy, but currently we have democratic ways to intercept (although we're currently not good at exercising that power). But if it's technologically impossible to intervene, there's not a lot of ways to fix this. Good article about this [1]. [1]: https://medium.com/@dionyziz/blockchains-are-inherently-plutocratic-45469ced0c0f https://medium.com/@dionyziz/blockchains-are-inherently-plut...
mockingbirdy 5y ago
> For me, it’s something new and interesting. Same for me. I'm programming Web3 and Solidity contract interactions. It's just refreshing to have a new aspect (contracts and money) that you can easily interact with now. I agree with the comments condemning the resource consumption. I also see big problems with the resulting loss of control over currencies that governments could face. I'm trying to be a part of this development because if it doesn't go away, these systems could be a defining part of the future. But if I'm honest, I'd like crypto in most of its current form to go away - it's very likely that it can damage democracies and we're currently already busy saving our democratic processes from social media, inequality and manipulation. Maybe crypto has a solution to these problems, but currently I'm not convinced. I've talked to founders of the biggest crypto currencies and the vision of most of them is highly anarchistic and idealistic (a DAO as a government replacement, taxes will be paid in a voluntary form or something like that) which makes me deeply sceptical. But maybe that's just me being uncomfortable that a multi-billionaire is explaining to me how he wants to change how the world is governed.
thathndude 5y ago
I respect your healthy mentality, but if that’s the most interest you can muster, I think it demonstrates how little attention Web3 should be getting. The original promise of the Internet and Web 2.0 had clear use cases, where you could understand and appreciate the improvements to every day life. There’s no denying that there were grifters there, and the whole thing got a little hot with dot com bubble. But, on the whole, the potential could be seen. Just as calculators made lives better in the 70s and 80s, spreadsheet as well, there was a natural and relatable drive to incorporating more technology. I don’t see any of that with the web three.
- f0e4c2f7 5y ago
  Many people were about as blind to the internet then as they are to crypto now. If you Google news stories from then you get a lot of confused newscasters going "but what is internet?" Or people like Bill Gates trying with little success to explain it.[0] In those early days where it was pretty much just irc and bbs's it was pretty hard to see any kind of value for most people. I also remember a time when people would essentially complain about ".com" do you remember this? "Commercials. Billboards. Everybody has a dot com now!" That feels a bit like the complaining about Blockchain now to me and I tend to see it as a pretty good sign. I don't actually know very much about blockchain / smart contract stuff. I've been digging into it lately because it seems like there could be something interesting there. If there is, I haven't really found it just yet. [0] https://youtube.com/watch?v=gipL_CEw-fk https://youtube.com/watch?v=gipL_CEw-fk
  - tibbar 5y ago
    It’s depressing, honestly. A few years ago I read a graduate textbook about Bitcoin as well as the original white paper and some papers about ethereum, etc. My main takeaway is that Bitcoin itself (although not all blockchain proposals) is a horrible medium for almost all useful products. The privacy properties are bad, it’s incredibly inefficient, and everyone ends up going to a middleman instead of interacting in a decentralized way as it is. Almost always, a regular database is what you want. The drumbeat of cries ‘let’s build X, but on a blockchain!’ rarely even make sense. This is compounded by the fact that the people who promote Bitcoin the most in my personal circles are known to be experts in wishful thinking and outlandish claims about the world in general. Having said that, smart contracts are actually really cool. In practice a bank is probably just as good in the developed world but — darn it, I want to make clever money programs too. Also, there are alt coins that have much better privacy preserving properties and superior (energy efficient) consensus algorithms so there are still reasons to be hyped. It’s just that most of the web3 stuff doesn’t seem to touch the actually interesting possibilities in favor of ‘go blockchain, Bitcoin to the moon!’
hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
> I work in the web3/blockchain world. > Is most of it a scam? Sure. I appreciate your honesty, but HN is not just about tech. We are humans first of all. If a new tech is used mostly to scam people, you can't be surprised most people here won't appreciate it, whether it's fresh or not. Also, the aspect of novelty fades in time. XML was a novel thing back in the day, too. But scams do have real, negative consequences on people's lives.
- capableweb 5y ago
  > If a new tech is used mostly to scam people Is blockchain-related projects actually "mostly" used to scam people though? When the internet first appeared, plenty of people made claims that the internet would just be used for crime and scams, but eventually came to realize the value of it, as the use-cases grew month by month.
  - ehnto 5y ago
    What are the current use-cases that aren't scams? Except for currency, since I don't think that's what Web3 is trying to sell, and I think most are familiar with the value propositions of cryptocurrencies.
GrumpyNl 5y ago
I don't get this, so you admit its a scam and a wild west, I'm sure you can work on something that's not a scam, has a wild west environment and get a descent pay. Why would you keep working at it?
tigerBL00D 5y ago
This is how web3 succeeds at decentralizing moral responsibility?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

wedn3sday 5y ago

It would be nice if it didnt have the carbon footprint of Argentina to produce something of no value.

plebianRube 5y ago
cslarson 5y ago
Researchers and devs have been and continue to work incredibly hard to ensure this stops being the case some time mid year 2022.
- politelemon 5y ago
  Could you explain or link to what you mean? What's happening in mid 22, and are all crypto currencies involved?
  - kristofferR 5y ago
    Ethereum is moving to proof of stake instead of mining, that will remove all superfluous carbon emissions. When we're talking about web3, we're generally talking about Ethereum: https://web3js.readthedocs.io https://web3js.readthedocs.io
  - paulgb 5y ago
    Probably referring to Ethereum moving to proof-of-stake, which is set to happen in June https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/08/ethereum-is-slated-for-another-upgrade-this-week-heres-what-to-know.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/08/ethereum-is-slated-for-anoth... It's been delayed before, but hopefully it happens this time. I don't own any, but it would be nice for GPU prices to normalize and the environmental cost would go down substantially.
  - DennisP 5y ago
    Ethereum is switching off its mining in favor of another consensus system called "proof-of-stake." Basically the mining hardware and electricity are replaced by the currency itself. There's a consensus protocol that works if people don't cheat in certain ways, it's provable if someone cheats, and the "miners" lock some ETH into the system as a security bond. If someone submits a proof that you cheated then you lose your bond. Energy consumption will drop by an estimated 99.95%. Most web3 stuff runs on Ethereum, which is the second-biggest energy consumer in crypto. Bitcoin is the biggest and has no plans to move to proof-of-stake, but isn't really involved in web3. Ethereum's proof-of-stake protocol has been running in parallel for a year with billions of dollars in real ETH deposited, and for the merged system there's a multi-client testnet running.
    - the_gastropod 5y ago
      We’ve been hearing this tune for several years now. Ethereum was originally planned to move to PoS in January 2020. That date was blown and many dates projected since have also been missed. Repeating this “the end is near!” argument in response to very valid concerns about the environmental impact is getting a bit old.
      - DennisP 5y ago
        Yes, I expect to see these "dates have been missed before" comments up to the day it hits production. There's a big difference between "we have a design worked out and think it will take this long" and "we've been running the new system in production for a year, merging it with the old system is relatively easy, and we've got all the clients running the merge together on a public test network." Historically, anything they've gotten to the point of a multi-client testnet has taken well under a year to go live.
        paulryanrogers 5y ago
        Did you mean "well over a year"?
        5y ago
- pavel_lishin 5y ago
  The promised land has always been six months in the future, for the past few years.
  - serverholic 5y ago
    It’s in testing right now.
WaxedChewbacca 5y ago

truculent 5y ago

What are the most promising use-cases in your experience?

henvic 5y ago
Probably being an early adopter and cashing out before it's too late lol
- wedn3sday 5y ago
  this is not the kind of comment that makes hackernews a good place to have a conversation.
  - cbozeman 5y ago
    Given the amount of rampant fraud that's occurring in the crypto spaces, I don't see how you can't at least entertain this as a serious notion.
  - davidgerard 5y ago
    It is an accurate and concise summary of the situation, and thus provides value in the discussion.
sktrdie 5y ago
I mean conceptually the idea is "money without intermediaries" which is quite fascinating. But when you stop and think about it for a sec you realize that we need intermediaries or else the richer will become unstoppable kings with control that cannot be deflated.
- mockingbirdy 5y ago
  > But when you stop and think about it for a sec you realize that we need intermediaries or else the richer will become unstoppable kings with control that cannot be deflated. I agree. This is something that I'm not sure people who go into crypto fully understand with the resulting consequences. The FED is basically printing money and I can understand people who don't agree with the inflationary mechanism that is built into fiat currencies - this is one of the main criticisms of the fiat system because it's debt-based. On the other hand, having no means to get taxes (because of anonymous currencies like Monero and anonymous wallets) and having no control over the currency is a safe way to a plutocracy. Some would argue that we're already living in a plutocracy, but currently we have democratic ways to intercept (although we're currently not good at exercising that power). But if it's technologically impossible to intervene, there's not a lot of ways to fix this. Good article about this [1]. [1]: https://medium.com/@dionyziz/blockchains-are-inherently-plutocratic-45469ced0c0f https://medium.com/@dionyziz/blockchains-are-inherently-plut...

mockingbirdy 5y ago

> For me, it’s something new and interesting. Same for me. I'm programming Web3 and Solidity contract interactions. It's just refreshing to have a new aspect (contracts and money) that you can easily interact with now. I agree with the comments condemning the resource consumption. I also see big problems with the resulting loss of control over currencies that governments could face. I'm trying to be a part of this development because if it doesn't go away, these systems could be a defining part of the future. But if I'm honest, I'd like crypto in most of its current form to go away - it's very likely that it can damage democracies and we're currently already busy saving our democratic processes from social media, inequality and manipulation. Maybe crypto has a solution to these problems, but currently I'm not convinced. I've talked to founders of the biggest crypto currencies and the vision of most of them is highly anarchistic and idealistic (a DAO as a government replacement, taxes will be paid in a voluntary form or something like that) which makes me deeply sceptical. But maybe that's just me being uncomfortable that a multi-billionaire is explaining to me how he wants to change how the world is governed.

thathndude 5y ago

I respect your healthy mentality, but if that’s the most interest you can muster, I think it demonstrates how little attention Web3 should be getting. The original promise of the Internet and Web 2.0 had clear use cases, where you could understand and appreciate the improvements to every day life. There’s no denying that there were grifters there, and the whole thing got a little hot with dot com bubble. But, on the whole, the potential could be seen. Just as calculators made lives better in the 70s and 80s, spreadsheet as well, there was a natural and relatable drive to incorporating more technology. I don’t see any of that with the web three.

f0e4c2f7 5y ago
Many people were about as blind to the internet then as they are to crypto now. If you Google news stories from then you get a lot of confused newscasters going "but what is internet?" Or people like Bill Gates trying with little success to explain it.[0] In those early days where it was pretty much just irc and bbs's it was pretty hard to see any kind of value for most people. I also remember a time when people would essentially complain about ".com" do you remember this? "Commercials. Billboards. Everybody has a dot com now!" That feels a bit like the complaining about Blockchain now to me and I tend to see it as a pretty good sign. I don't actually know very much about blockchain / smart contract stuff. I've been digging into it lately because it seems like there could be something interesting there. If there is, I haven't really found it just yet. [0] https://youtube.com/watch?v=gipL_CEw-fk https://youtube.com/watch?v=gipL_CEw-fk
- tibbar 5y ago
  It’s depressing, honestly. A few years ago I read a graduate textbook about Bitcoin as well as the original white paper and some papers about ethereum, etc. My main takeaway is that Bitcoin itself (although not all blockchain proposals) is a horrible medium for almost all useful products. The privacy properties are bad, it’s incredibly inefficient, and everyone ends up going to a middleman instead of interacting in a decentralized way as it is. Almost always, a regular database is what you want. The drumbeat of cries ‘let’s build X, but on a blockchain!’ rarely even make sense. This is compounded by the fact that the people who promote Bitcoin the most in my personal circles are known to be experts in wishful thinking and outlandish claims about the world in general. Having said that, smart contracts are actually really cool. In practice a bank is probably just as good in the developed world but — darn it, I want to make clever money programs too. Also, there are alt coins that have much better privacy preserving properties and superior (energy efficient) consensus algorithms so there are still reasons to be hyped. It’s just that most of the web3 stuff doesn’t seem to touch the actually interesting possibilities in favor of ‘go blockchain, Bitcoin to the moon!’

hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago

> I work in the web3/blockchain world. > Is most of it a scam? Sure. I appreciate your honesty, but HN is not just about tech. We are humans first of all. If a new tech is used mostly to scam people, you can't be surprised most people here won't appreciate it, whether it's fresh or not. Also, the aspect of novelty fades in time. XML was a novel thing back in the day, too. But scams do have real, negative consequences on people's lives.

capableweb 5y ago
> If a new tech is used mostly to scam people Is blockchain-related projects actually "mostly" used to scam people though? When the internet first appeared, plenty of people made claims that the internet would just be used for crime and scams, but eventually came to realize the value of it, as the use-cases grew month by month.
- ehnto 5y ago
  What are the current use-cases that aren't scams? Except for currency, since I don't think that's what Web3 is trying to sell, and I think most are familiar with the value propositions of cryptocurrencies.

GrumpyNl 5y ago

I don't get this, so you admit its a scam and a wild west, I'm sure you can work on something that's not a scam, has a wild west environment and get a descent pay. Why would you keep working at it?

tigerBL00D 5y ago

This is how web3 succeeds at decentralizing moral responsibility?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]