6 ms·

It's a waste to you, but not to the people who use and value it.

multjoy 5y ago
Sod the people who use and value it, this is literally the future of the planet.
arcticbull 5y ago
I mean, ok, you could make that argument about literally anything. It's a tautology. Thing has value to people who value it because people value it. Neat. It's intrinsic value is zero. It's economic value is negative, because it's a Ponzi scheme. [1] [1] https://ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/bitcoin/2020-12-31-bitcoin-ponzi.html https://ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/bitcoin/2020-12-31-bitcoin-pon...
- scottiebarnes 5y ago
  What does that make central banking and fiat?
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    Money. All money that enters into circulation via fractional reserve lending is backed by demand for that same money, and enforced by the legal system. The repayment of the issuing loan. That’s where it’s value comes from. Unlike bitcoin fiat operates on a pull model - demand driven. It doesn’t start by creating supply and having people shill it.
    - scottiebarnes 5y ago
      You might need to review your monetary history. Fiat required trade to be based on gold first, a peg which was then broken. Central banks can create infinite units arbitrarily. "Enforced by the legal system" perhaps means controlled by the FOMC, a dozen central bankers who make decisions behind close doors, nominated and chosen by congress I believe.
      - arcticbull 5y ago
        > Fiat required trade to be based on gold first, a peg which was then broken. Fiat is by definition not based on gold. The term is [...] usually reserved for legal-tender paper money or coins that have face values far exceeding their commodity values and are not redeemable in gold or silver. [1] What you are describing is the switch from commodity money (gold standard) to fiat, an objectively better system for many reasons. This happened in 1933 under FDR in the United States, not under Nixon as many of the tinfoil hat crew are wont to say. What you're describing is at most - at most - a default on the government's obligations 89 years ago. Not a Ponzi scheme lol. Everything folks are suspicious of is a Ponzi scheme these days. > Central banks can create infinite units arbitrarily. Central banks do not create money. They at most indirectly affect the money supply via adjustment of interest rates and reserve requirements. [2] However their mandate under which they operate is to maintain low, predictable medium-term inflation targets and maximize employment. This is like saying "well, actually, the Bitcoin core team can adjust the 21M coin limit up to an arbitrary value!" They could, technically, but there's a ton of reasons they won't. > "Enforced by the legal system" perhaps means controlled by the FOMC. No it does not. When you borrow money from a retail bank, say to purchase a house, they create new money that enters the system, paired with a negative balance on their books. The new money is backed by the demand of the issuer to re-pay that loan. As the loan is re-paid the new money is destroyed and leaves the system. The legal system enforces payments in these contracts. > ...a dozen central bankers who make decisions behind close doors, nominated and chosen by congress I believe. They are nominated by the president and appointed by congress. The Federal Reserve is an independent organization explicitly to separate capricious fiscal policy from the kind of stable monetary policy necessary for businesses to plan into the future. They were created by an act of congress and can be repealed by act of congress. They act on behalf of the American people and are accountable to the American people. All decisions are published and documented along with full audits. Like the post office. There's nothing more sinister or shady about the Fed than there is about the USPS. Sure does spook people though. [1] https://www.britannica.com/topic/fiat-money https://www.britannica.com/topic/fiat-money [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation#Central_banks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation#Central_banks
        5y ago
me_me_mu_mu 5y ago
Fentanyl has value to some people. But it kills them and some people keep making more.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Fentanyl actually has medical value, it's used as part of anesthesia. [1] [1] https://www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/d00233n1 https://www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/d00233n1
ohgodplsno 5y ago
I could make a statue out of my feces and look at it every day and be happy about it, giving it some value, but it's still a heap of shit.
user-the-name 5y ago
And they are all sociopaths who would boil the planet so that they can gamble and scam people. Fuck them. Seriously, fuck them. Ban bitcoin, smash every bitcoin mining rig. The world will be better in every way the next day.

Sod the people who use and value it, this is literally the future of the planet.

I mean, ok, you could make that argument about literally anything. It's a tautology. Thing has value to people who value it because people value it. Neat. It's intrinsic value is zero. It's economic value is negative, because it's a Ponzi scheme. [1] [1] https://ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/bitcoin/2020-12-31-bitcoin-ponzi.html https://ic.unicamp.br/~stolfi/bitcoin/2020-12-31-bitcoin-pon...

scottiebarnes 5y ago
What does that make central banking and fiat?
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Money. All money that enters into circulation via fractional reserve lending is backed by demand for that same money, and enforced by the legal system. The repayment of the issuing loan. That’s where it’s value comes from. Unlike bitcoin fiat operates on a pull model - demand driven. It doesn’t start by creating supply and having people shill it.
  - scottiebarnes 5y ago
    You might need to review your monetary history. Fiat required trade to be based on gold first, a peg which was then broken. Central banks can create infinite units arbitrarily. "Enforced by the legal system" perhaps means controlled by the FOMC, a dozen central bankers who make decisions behind close doors, nominated and chosen by congress I believe.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      > Fiat required trade to be based on gold first, a peg which was then broken. Fiat is by definition not based on gold. The term is [...] usually reserved for legal-tender paper money or coins that have face values far exceeding their commodity values and are not redeemable in gold or silver. [1] What you are describing is the switch from commodity money (gold standard) to fiat, an objectively better system for many reasons. This happened in 1933 under FDR in the United States, not under Nixon as many of the tinfoil hat crew are wont to say. What you're describing is at most - at most - a default on the government's obligations 89 years ago. Not a Ponzi scheme lol. Everything folks are suspicious of is a Ponzi scheme these days. > Central banks can create infinite units arbitrarily. Central banks do not create money. They at most indirectly affect the money supply via adjustment of interest rates and reserve requirements. [2] However their mandate under which they operate is to maintain low, predictable medium-term inflation targets and maximize employment. This is like saying "well, actually, the Bitcoin core team can adjust the 21M coin limit up to an arbitrary value!" They could, technically, but there's a ton of reasons they won't. > "Enforced by the legal system" perhaps means controlled by the FOMC. No it does not. When you borrow money from a retail bank, say to purchase a house, they create new money that enters the system, paired with a negative balance on their books. The new money is backed by the demand of the issuer to re-pay that loan. As the loan is re-paid the new money is destroyed and leaves the system. The legal system enforces payments in these contracts. > ...a dozen central bankers who make decisions behind close doors, nominated and chosen by congress I believe. They are nominated by the president and appointed by congress. The Federal Reserve is an independent organization explicitly to separate capricious fiscal policy from the kind of stable monetary policy necessary for businesses to plan into the future. They were created by an act of congress and can be repealed by act of congress. They act on behalf of the American people and are accountable to the American people. All decisions are published and documented along with full audits. Like the post office. There's nothing more sinister or shady about the Fed than there is about the USPS. Sure does spook people though. [1] https://www.britannica.com/topic/fiat-money https://www.britannica.com/topic/fiat-money [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation#Central_banks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation#Central_banks
      - 5y ago

me_me_mu_mu 5y ago

Fentanyl has value to some people. But it kills them and some people keep making more.

arcticbull 5y ago
Fentanyl actually has medical value, it's used as part of anesthesia. [1] [1] https://www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/d00233n1 https://www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/d00233n1

ohgodplsno 5y ago

I could make a statue out of my feces and look at it every day and be happy about it, giving it some value, but it's still a heap of shit.

user-the-name 5y ago

And they are all sociopaths who would boil the planet so that they can gamble and scam people. Fuck them. Seriously, fuck them. Ban bitcoin, smash every bitcoin mining rig. The world will be better in every way the next day.