15 ms·

Not that anything about this shed is built to code, but this takes the cake: > PRO TIP Use screws for everything; if you mess up, remove the screws and redo it

by ohazi 5y ago

Not that anything about this shed is built to code, but this takes the cake: > PRO TIP Use screws for everything; if you mess up, remove the screws and redo it; with nails, it’s a lot harder to do that. You absolutely should not do this for framing, and most building codes specify the type and size of nails that you must use when fastening load-bearing structural components. Screws are convenient, sure, but they are necessarily much harder than nails and are prone to embrittlement and cracking, while nails are soft and pliable. You can get structural screws, but they're uncommon, expensive, and I'd wager they weren't used here (they're much beefier than a similarly rated framing nail).

InvertedRhodium 5y ago
PVC-U cable ducting for 240V cabling is the norm here in NZ, just helped my dad lay about 60m of it from the house to the office. I doubt it's going to be the end of the world.
rootusrootus 5y ago
> You can get structural screws, but they're uncommon, expensive And worth it. I have boxes of different sizes of Simpson strong-tie and strong-drive screws and I adore them. And they're mostly available at any Home Depot.
Fwirt 5y ago
Also it sounds like he ran both the low voltage network cable and the high voltage line-level power wiring inside of the same conduit which is a big no-no for various code and safety related reasons. From what I understand messing with electric code violations is not a good idea, if your homeowners insurance finds out you put in some janky stuff like that and your house burns down, they might invalidate your policy because it was your fault.
- hinkley 5y ago
  A plastic conduit, ffs.
- adventured 5y ago
  The home insurance people will absolutely nail him on this. They'll eventually send someone out to inspect the property on a policy renewal. They'll refuse to renew the policy until the code violations are corrected. And they'll definitely notice and have questions about the odd 'shed' that looks new and very out of place. If he has really wired it as it seems, if anything consequential (unrelated) happens to the property in the meantime they'll use that against him when they inspect post event. They'll try to claim he breached the policy prior to the event.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Where do you live that insurance companies send inspectors ‘round? I’ve owned 2 houses for a total of over 25 years and never had an insurance inspector visit nor heard of them visiting anyone else for a renewal. Is this common elsewhere in the world?
    - dudul 5y ago
      Been a homeowner for 10+ years and it never happened to me either. I only see insurance people when I have a claim to evaluate the cost.
    - chrisdhal 5y ago
      I have rental properties and it happens about every other year before a renewal. They definitely find things that need fixing. That being said, I've never had it happen on my primary residence (20+ years).
  - sgtnoodle 5y ago
    That has not been my experience as a homeowner in CA for the past 5 years. I think the insurance company sent someone out once when we first bought the house? I vaguely recall they looked at the breaker box to write down the main breaker rating, and that's about it.
- jjeaff 5y ago
  Home insurance covers stupidity as well as acts of god, in most cases They might send an inspector and then refuse to insure, but if you are paying the premium and make an out of code change that causes a claim, they are going to have to pay out for the most part unless your out of code changes are super negligent. Using screws instead of nails would definitely not be considered super negligent. Nor would anything ever be inspected close enough to notice that. Running electrical through the wrong type of PVC is also not likely to be considered negligent enough to deny a claim. Of course, doing everything right the first time is the better way to go anyway as you never know when an insurance may become super petty and try to deny a claim for whatever reason they can find.
cobookman 5y ago
You can get framing screws that bend similar to framing nails. As for code, yeah most cities have codes on the hight and setback of backyard sheds. This shed doesn't look like it meets either. https://www.strongtie.com/strongdrive_exteriorwoodscrews/sdws-q_screw/p/strong-drive-sdws-framing-screw https://www.strongtie.com/strongdrive_exteriorwoodscrews/sdw...
- markkanof 5y ago
  Where I live (Portland, Oregon) the rules for sheds are actually pretty generous. It can be something like 10 feet high, 200 square feet or less, and I don't think requires any setback, so the shed in the article might comply with similar rules depending on where they are.
rpnzl 5y ago
Definitely want to use nails for framing (especially in zones that might experience the shearing forces of an earthquake) -- here are a couple of links so folks can see for themselves: [Project Farm](https://youtu.be/qmajKElnwfE https://youtu.be/qmajKElnwfE) [Vancouver Carpenter](https://youtu.be/5-PlR8tf84c https://youtu.be/5-PlR8tf84c)
- jjeaff 5y ago
  In that project farm video, the screws came out stronger than nails in every test except the repeated bend test (even the drywall screws). I think it could be argued that since screws are much stronger and have better holding power, they are much less likely to get loose enough to the point that they are going to be repeatedly bending back and forth.
  - rpnzl 5y ago
    I think this is valid -- I'm not a structural engineer so I can't speak to how an earthquake might behave differently than the tests in the Project Farm video, but I can imagine a scenario where a screw becoming a bit loose would create a situation that more closely resembles the repeated bend test. The IBC still outlines nails as appropriate light frame fasteners [0], and where I am (on Maui) there's no local provision in the code to allow swapping in screws. The GRKs [1, 2] and Simpson [3] screws others have mentioned are seemingly valid alternatives to 16d nails, but ultimately it's going to come down to what you're comfortable with, the local code, the inspector, etc. [0] https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IBC2021P1/chapter-23-wood#IBC2021P1_Ch23_Sec2304.10.2 https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IBC2021P1/chapter-23-wood#... [1] https://www.grkfasteners.com/structural/r4-multi-purpose-screw https://www.grkfasteners.com/structural/r4-multi-purpose-scr... [2] https://www.grkfasteners.com/structural/rss-rugged-structural-screw https://www.grkfasteners.com/structural/rss-rugged-structura... [3] https://www.strongtie.com/strongdrive_exteriorwoodscrews/sdws-q_screw/p/strong-drive-sdws-framing-screw https://www.strongtie.com/strongdrive_exteriorwoodscrews/sdw...
    - jjeaff 5y ago
      I definitely don't know for sure. But one thing I do know for sure, is that a lot of official building code is not necessarily based on careful scientific study but rather on "that's the way we've always done it".
kevan 5y ago
As much as everyone loves to complain about red tape, building codes have a lot of useful info. Even if you're not going to pull permits (at your own risk) it's useful to be aware of what code requires and why. Specific examples from the post: * Plywood thickness required for floor decking * Min roof slope for asphalt shingles * Drip edge, where it's required and how to install it * Roof drainage - probably doesn't matter because California but as a general rule you never want to channel water towards your foundation. In the grand scheme these are relatively minor. They'll probably need to demolish the thing when they sell the house long before the roof slope causes water issues.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  And related to this, but floor joists, roof construction and other carrying components (foundation) are all super important to get right.
- hinkley 5y ago
  Are termites a problem down there? Seems like he’s created a termite magnet with all that wood exposed to water damage.
  - yurishimo 5y ago
    I thought the entire backyard was already brick/pavers? I doubt there are many termites hanging out on top of those waiting for some wood to get a little damp. If it was pressure treated, it should be fine to use those beams as a sort of footer on the pavers "foundation".
    - hinkley 5y ago
      I was thinking more of the splashing back and forth between the house and the shed, getting in the siding and causing issues.
- thathndude 5y ago
  I raised an eyebrow at the roof choice as well. The roof slopes towards the foundation? Odd choice
hinkley 5y ago
I was going to post about code violations but I’ll just tuck it under yours here so we don’t flood the top level (although one could argue that this really deserves it). I had to stop reading r/diy because half the stuff in there made me angry. Especially people building lofts to store heavy stuff without knowing anything about construction. You can’t overlap rooflines like this. That’s how they allow people to build small outbuildings but make large projects have to get permits. If the roofs “touch” then you’re using a loophole to make an illegal addition to your house instead of a shed. > The way I did it was to run both wires inside a 3/4 inch PVC conduit using 14/2 electrical wiring + 100ft cat6 ethernet cable. You are going to get somebody killed. I didn’t see you dig a trench, which means you have a single plastic conduit carrying power and data and exposed to the air. It’s supposed to be grounded metal buried conduit to create a faraday cage that can’t be electrified by nearby lightning strikes or hit by a tree or debris in a wind storm. And deep enough the next owner doesn’t kill themselves planting a hydrangea. I have half a mind to doxx you to your city planning office.
- R0b0t1 5y ago
  You don't need to take power underground. Most midwestern construction doesn't and I usually see PVC conduit. There are hazards from breakage, but putting it in PVC conduit tends to exceed code.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Putting signalling and power wires in the same conduit is about as bad as it gets. The proper way to do this is to dig a trench and use armored cable suitable for burial without further protection and to use a plastic uninterrupted tube for the cat6 (which you can blow through). That said, there isn't a lot of difference between a DIY person and a low grade contractor, and a competent DIY'er is probably better than most mid level contractors. The big difference is usually that they have the tools and they're with a couple of people and you're just by your lonesome.
  - raytube 5y ago
    Just expose the armoured cable. Hardly an issue, and you know where it is.
jopsen 5y ago
> Screws are convenient, sure, but they are necessarily much harder than nails and are prone to embrittlement and cracking,... That sounds like bike-shedding :D
- sneak 5y ago
  It's not, when you are talking about load-bearing framing.
- jjeaff 5y ago
  Ya, it is bike shedding in most cases. I've seen a few side by side comparisons of nails vs screws for framing and while it's true that screws are more likely to sheer off, nails are more likely to pull out. And assuming you used a reasonable size and quantity of screws, the load required to sheer them will be so far and above anything required by code that it becomes a distinction without a difference.
  - ARandomerDude 5y ago
    > nails are more likely to pull out That's why you toe nail in opposite directions, giving you the best of both worlds.
  - fock 5y ago
    as a dumb european: what are non-structural screws? I've only ever seen people building their bike-shacks and terrace stuff, using "Spax". Which are sold as "structural" screws in the US. Then, if you somehow fix together things with a classic nut and bolt-screws (from mechanical engineering): well, for most real things you probably would think about the force anyway I hope. And then screws are used in like any industrial machine...
    - icambron 5y ago
      A good example is the common wood screw, which you might use in repairing a piece of furniture. Another is a drywall screw that holds drywall to the wooden studs behind it You don't always want the beefiest screw. Sometimes you want it small and cheap. Most screws a random person would have sitting in their garage are of the small and cheap kind, because they're well-suited for most of the everyday projects people do. For example, I recently mounted speakers to the walls of my living room. The wires come out of the wall, so to make that work well without just having holes in the wall, I mounted outlet boxes in the wall and covered then with panels that let the wire through. Those outlet boxes are screwed into the studs (the boxes have little channels in them to run the screw through). Those screws aren't structural, and probably wouldn't fit if they were.
adolph 5y ago
Something I appreciate about HN is the number of reverse-bikeshedding moments there are and for which the parent comment exemplifies. Points out a critical flaw and explains it in plain language with no rhetorical flourishes. Bikeshedding describes our tendency to spend too much time discussing trivial matters, and too little time discussing important matters as a result. It describes the inverse relationship between time spent and the importance of an issue. https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/bikeshedding/ https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/bikeshedding/
- gjvc 5y ago
  but this is closer to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law (ISMETA)
jbluepolarbear 5y ago
Was thinking the same thing. Also a nail gum would make putting that frame together pretty easy. I worked in construction until I was in my mid 20’s and I’m amazed at how uninformed people are when building sheds and tiny homes. YouTube also spreads a lot of bad info.
cgh 5y ago
> You can get structural screws, but they're uncommon, expensive Agreed that eg GRK R4 structural screws are pricey, but they are widely available. You can buy them at Home Depot, for example. I do like them better than nails for small projects.
pjc50 5y ago
> Not that anything about this shed is built to code This is why we can't have nice, or at least affordable but slightly less than perfect, things. I would also note that, while I'm sure everyone's right about the rules in Santa Cruz, this is jurisdiction specific. In the UK, if your shed is less than 15m^2 and is not used as living accomodation, no building regulations apply, and you can build it with screws, nails, or corrugated cardboard and PVA glue if you're so inclined.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  This is why we can't have nice, or at least affordable but slightly less than perfect, things. I really enjoyed reading the article just as someone who likes writing and reading. It was very engaging and I enjoyed the process he went through from having an idea to finally committing to it and I especially liked him commenting on things like choosing materials that fit in his car. I also really am enjoying the comments on HN from knowledgeable, experienced people who know whereof they speak and I appreciate your comment because I spent years homeless and I've studied housing issues and lack of affordable housing is a root cause of homelessness in the US. So this is a real issue and I'm reminded of the fact that after racist White people burned down "Black Wall Street" they then began interfering with the rebuilding by trying to pass more stringent fire safety codes when building codes had nothing to do with why it burned down. It burned down because hateful people torched it. And I wonder how we solve this. I wonder how we balance all those concerns of not squelching creative impetus and not squelching a desire to add something cost effectively with real world concerns that "If you do it that way, people die or you burn out your Ethernet card (or whatever)." Seems like with the internet being a thing, we could find ways to balance those many issues. But so far we really aren't. People in the know are often comfortably well off. They have no problem with saying "Well, pay the few extra bucks to do it right." and the result is some people are sleeping in the streets and it falls on deaf ears when you try to draw those connections. It's frustrating.
  - caslon 5y ago
14 5y ago
That was the first thing I noticed as well. I don’t blame him mind you since I would have assumed they are better and easier as well but recently my brother who is a carpenter told me you have to use nails they are needed. This just reminds me that being handy is good but knowing code is critical for some thing. In this case he will probably get away with just screws.
- rectang 5y ago
  > being handy is good but knowing code is critical for some things The subject of building code seems vast. How can you get to the point where you even know what you don't know?
  - 14 5y ago
    The simple answer is testing. When you go to school you get a test that certifies you have a basic knowledge. It may not cover every aspect but will teach you where to find the answers you don’t know.
    - rectang 5y ago
      Oh? School for what? Maybe general contracting? A while back I looked briefly into what it would take to be an electrician, and it seemed like there was quite a lot to know. I wonder how soon you get to the stage where you could wire up a shed like this with full confidence that you've done everything to code. From there, how many other subjects do you have to get right? I learned how to swing a hammer as a kid but I wouldn't know jack about designing load bearing structures, weather proofing, foundations, hanging windows and doors, etc — let alone plumbing, HVAC, etc.
      - 14 5y ago
        Electrical is a whole field of expertise. To wire a shed to code however is not that hard. I’ve done my dad’s tiny home personally and then had my electrician friend come in after and said it was all done and to code. Some of the skills overlap but usually the carpenters do the work and at a certain point the electrician comes in and does all his work then the carpenter finish up. The real secret to getting fully comfortable is doing an apprenticeship where someone is going over all your work.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kwhitefoot 5y ago
This might be true where you are. It is not universally so.
crawshaw 5y ago
To support your point: if you are a DIYer who is not super cost sensitive, for example if you have a tech job, then I highly recommend structural screws. (I quite like GRK RSS fasteners.) It requires more research than you might think to find screws that are properly rated, but it is much more fun to do small projects with an impact driver than a nail gun or hammer.
sethev 5y ago
While you're not wrong about nails vs screws for framing - this a 6x6 box, it's not going to matter.
- speg 5y ago
  Signed in to say this. I built a shed in my backyard as one of my first DIY projects and also used screws. Not even structural screws, just standard 3” construction screws. The thing is solid. No one is walking around on it. It isn’t under the same stresses as a two story house. Like you said, it’s a box! I did my research, understood that nails provide better strength. I chose screws. So do many other shed builders.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - alex_sf 5y ago
    Did you run 120v to it? Are you inside of it for 8 hours a day? Is it 3 feet from your house? I'm all for hack jobs when the consequences are low. This is not one of those situations.
ShakataGaNai 5y ago
Thank you for explaining the screw/nail/framing thing. I knew nails were used for framing but always thought "screws are better, why not use screws for everything?". TIL.
nine_k 5y ago
I wonder how much the code should apply to a lightweight construction like pictured. Not legally but from the civil engineering point of view. I completely agree that running power and network cables in the same conduit is dangerous. I'm not as certain about the use of screws. To me, it looks that even if the whole shed collapses, the rubble would have hard time seriously hurting the person inside (except for the glass; I hope it's safety glass).
throwaway9870 5y ago
You can get structural rated screws in pretty much any Home Depot or Lowes in the US and they don't cost that much relative to all the other expenses building that shed. Telling people to not use structural screws is wrong, they are far superior to nails for DIY person. For starters using the right nail isn't that easy either - do you know if you inspector allows clipped head nails? Are you driving them in pressure treated wood? If so, do you have the right nail? With a GRK R4, you don't have to worry about any of those issues. They are easy to drive with an impact driver, for a noob, they are faster than driving a nail by hand, they can be removed, they are less likely to split wood. The important thing here is that neither nails nor screws are "all the same". Know what you are using them for and use the correct ones. If you use any hangers or other ties, you can generally use screws or nails, but you MUST read the spec sheet from the manufacture to get the correct ones. Even "professional" home builders frequently use the wrong fasteners for these applications. https://www.grkfasteners.com/support/code-approvals https://www.grkfasteners.com/support/code-approvals
teh_klev 5y ago
Seriously people, it's a glorified crate with some openings, in the UK you wouldn't even need planning permission for something like this. I think a bunch of folks need to get off their high horses about "building codes" and sort out their perspective. Sure nails might be the correct thing for a much larger structure, but for this piddly wee thing, who cares? If there's an earthquake then the adjacent house is likely to flatten this box regardless of fasteners used. My only concern would be the electrical and that they'd hooked up a separate breaker for the "crate supply". Yes defo make sure that's correct. But....It's just a shed
DannyBee 5y ago
The cost structural screws really isn’t that bad anymore. But for anything larger than a shed it’s still cheaper to get a metal connector gun
davidbanham 5y ago
Also, it’s just not that hard to “undo” a nailed framing joint. Bang the top piece of wood with a hammer from the underside. It will separate from the other piece with the nails still in it. Now bang the nails out by hitting the pointy bit with your hammer. Job done. 45 seconds of work, just need to be comfortable on the tools.

by ohazi 5y ago

InvertedRhodium 5y ago

PVC-U cable ducting for 240V cabling is the norm here in NZ, just helped my dad lay about 60m of it from the house to the office. I doubt it's going to be the end of the world.

rootusrootus 5y ago

> You can get structural screws, but they're uncommon, expensive And worth it. I have boxes of different sizes of Simpson strong-tie and strong-drive screws and I adore them. And they're mostly available at any Home Depot.

Fwirt 5y ago

Also it sounds like he ran both the low voltage network cable and the high voltage line-level power wiring inside of the same conduit which is a big no-no for various code and safety related reasons. From what I understand messing with electric code violations is not a good idea, if your homeowners insurance finds out you put in some janky stuff like that and your house burns down, they might invalidate your policy because it was your fault.

hinkley 5y ago
A plastic conduit, ffs.
adventured 5y ago
The home insurance people will absolutely nail him on this. They'll eventually send someone out to inspect the property on a policy renewal. They'll refuse to renew the policy until the code violations are corrected. And they'll definitely notice and have questions about the odd 'shed' that looks new and very out of place. If he has really wired it as it seems, if anything consequential (unrelated) happens to the property in the meantime they'll use that against him when they inspect post event. They'll try to claim he breached the policy prior to the event.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Where do you live that insurance companies send inspectors ‘round? I’ve owned 2 houses for a total of over 25 years and never had an insurance inspector visit nor heard of them visiting anyone else for a renewal. Is this common elsewhere in the world?
  - dudul 5y ago
    Been a homeowner for 10+ years and it never happened to me either. I only see insurance people when I have a claim to evaluate the cost.
  - chrisdhal 5y ago
    I have rental properties and it happens about every other year before a renewal. They definitely find things that need fixing. That being said, I've never had it happen on my primary residence (20+ years).
- sgtnoodle 5y ago
  That has not been my experience as a homeowner in CA for the past 5 years. I think the insurance company sent someone out once when we first bought the house? I vaguely recall they looked at the breaker box to write down the main breaker rating, and that's about it.
jjeaff 5y ago
Home insurance covers stupidity as well as acts of god, in most cases They might send an inspector and then refuse to insure, but if you are paying the premium and make an out of code change that causes a claim, they are going to have to pay out for the most part unless your out of code changes are super negligent. Using screws instead of nails would definitely not be considered super negligent. Nor would anything ever be inspected close enough to notice that. Running electrical through the wrong type of PVC is also not likely to be considered negligent enough to deny a claim. Of course, doing everything right the first time is the better way to go anyway as you never know when an insurance may become super petty and try to deny a claim for whatever reason they can find.

cobookman 5y ago

You can get framing screws that bend similar to framing nails. As for code, yeah most cities have codes on the hight and setback of backyard sheds. This shed doesn't look like it meets either. https://www.strongtie.com/strongdrive_exteriorwoodscrews/sdws-q_screw/p/strong-drive-sdws-framing-screw https://www.strongtie.com/strongdrive_exteriorwoodscrews/sdw...

markkanof 5y ago
Where I live (Portland, Oregon) the rules for sheds are actually pretty generous. It can be something like 10 feet high, 200 square feet or less, and I don't think requires any setback, so the shed in the article might comply with similar rules depending on where they are.

rpnzl 5y ago

Definitely want to use nails for framing (especially in zones that might experience the shearing forces of an earthquake) -- here are a couple of links so folks can see for themselves: [Project Farm](https://youtu.be/qmajKElnwfE https://youtu.be/qmajKElnwfE) [Vancouver Carpenter](https://youtu.be/5-PlR8tf84c https://youtu.be/5-PlR8tf84c)

jjeaff 5y ago
In that project farm video, the screws came out stronger than nails in every test except the repeated bend test (even the drywall screws). I think it could be argued that since screws are much stronger and have better holding power, they are much less likely to get loose enough to the point that they are going to be repeatedly bending back and forth.
- rpnzl 5y ago
  I think this is valid -- I'm not a structural engineer so I can't speak to how an earthquake might behave differently than the tests in the Project Farm video, but I can imagine a scenario where a screw becoming a bit loose would create a situation that more closely resembles the repeated bend test. The IBC still outlines nails as appropriate light frame fasteners [0], and where I am (on Maui) there's no local provision in the code to allow swapping in screws. The GRKs [1, 2] and Simpson [3] screws others have mentioned are seemingly valid alternatives to 16d nails, but ultimately it's going to come down to what you're comfortable with, the local code, the inspector, etc. [0] https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IBC2021P1/chapter-23-wood#IBC2021P1_Ch23_Sec2304.10.2 https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IBC2021P1/chapter-23-wood#... [1] https://www.grkfasteners.com/structural/r4-multi-purpose-screw https://www.grkfasteners.com/structural/r4-multi-purpose-scr... [2] https://www.grkfasteners.com/structural/rss-rugged-structural-screw https://www.grkfasteners.com/structural/rss-rugged-structura... [3] https://www.strongtie.com/strongdrive_exteriorwoodscrews/sdws-q_screw/p/strong-drive-sdws-framing-screw https://www.strongtie.com/strongdrive_exteriorwoodscrews/sdw...
  - jjeaff 5y ago
    I definitely don't know for sure. But one thing I do know for sure, is that a lot of official building code is not necessarily based on careful scientific study but rather on "that's the way we've always done it".

kevan 5y ago

As much as everyone loves to complain about red tape, building codes have a lot of useful info. Even if you're not going to pull permits (at your own risk) it's useful to be aware of what code requires and why. Specific examples from the post: * Plywood thickness required for floor decking * Min roof slope for asphalt shingles * Drip edge, where it's required and how to install it * Roof drainage - probably doesn't matter because California but as a general rule you never want to channel water towards your foundation. In the grand scheme these are relatively minor. They'll probably need to demolish the thing when they sell the house long before the roof slope causes water issues.

jacquesm 5y ago
And related to this, but floor joists, roof construction and other carrying components (foundation) are all super important to get right.
hinkley 5y ago
Are termites a problem down there? Seems like he’s created a termite magnet with all that wood exposed to water damage.
- yurishimo 5y ago
  I thought the entire backyard was already brick/pavers? I doubt there are many termites hanging out on top of those waiting for some wood to get a little damp. If it was pressure treated, it should be fine to use those beams as a sort of footer on the pavers "foundation".
  - hinkley 5y ago
    I was thinking more of the splashing back and forth between the house and the shed, getting in the siding and causing issues.
thathndude 5y ago
I raised an eyebrow at the roof choice as well. The roof slopes towards the foundation? Odd choice

hinkley 5y ago

I was going to post about code violations but I’ll just tuck it under yours here so we don’t flood the top level (although one could argue that this really deserves it). I had to stop reading r/diy because half the stuff in there made me angry. Especially people building lofts to store heavy stuff without knowing anything about construction. You can’t overlap rooflines like this. That’s how they allow people to build small outbuildings but make large projects have to get permits. If the roofs “touch” then you’re using a loophole to make an illegal addition to your house instead of a shed. > The way I did it was to run both wires inside a 3/4 inch PVC conduit using 14/2 electrical wiring + 100ft cat6 ethernet cable. You are going to get somebody killed. I didn’t see you dig a trench, which means you have a single plastic conduit carrying power and data and exposed to the air. It’s supposed to be grounded metal buried conduit to create a faraday cage that can’t be electrified by nearby lightning strikes or hit by a tree or debris in a wind storm. And deep enough the next owner doesn’t kill themselves planting a hydrangea. I have half a mind to doxx you to your city planning office.

R0b0t1 5y ago
You don't need to take power underground. Most midwestern construction doesn't and I usually see PVC conduit. There are hazards from breakage, but putting it in PVC conduit tends to exceed code.
jacquesm 5y ago
Putting signalling and power wires in the same conduit is about as bad as it gets. The proper way to do this is to dig a trench and use armored cable suitable for burial without further protection and to use a plastic uninterrupted tube for the cat6 (which you can blow through). That said, there isn't a lot of difference between a DIY person and a low grade contractor, and a competent DIY'er is probably better than most mid level contractors. The big difference is usually that they have the tools and they're with a couple of people and you're just by your lonesome.
- raytube 5y ago
  Just expose the armoured cable. Hardly an issue, and you know where it is.

jopsen 5y ago

> Screws are convenient, sure, but they are necessarily much harder than nails and are prone to embrittlement and cracking,... That sounds like bike-shedding :D

sneak 5y ago
It's not, when you are talking about load-bearing framing.
jjeaff 5y ago
Ya, it is bike shedding in most cases. I've seen a few side by side comparisons of nails vs screws for framing and while it's true that screws are more likely to sheer off, nails are more likely to pull out. And assuming you used a reasonable size and quantity of screws, the load required to sheer them will be so far and above anything required by code that it becomes a distinction without a difference.
- ARandomerDude 5y ago
  > nails are more likely to pull out That's why you toe nail in opposite directions, giving you the best of both worlds.
- fock 5y ago
  as a dumb european: what are non-structural screws? I've only ever seen people building their bike-shacks and terrace stuff, using "Spax". Which are sold as "structural" screws in the US. Then, if you somehow fix together things with a classic nut and bolt-screws (from mechanical engineering): well, for most real things you probably would think about the force anyway I hope. And then screws are used in like any industrial machine...
  - icambron 5y ago
    A good example is the common wood screw, which you might use in repairing a piece of furniture. Another is a drywall screw that holds drywall to the wooden studs behind it You don't always want the beefiest screw. Sometimes you want it small and cheap. Most screws a random person would have sitting in their garage are of the small and cheap kind, because they're well-suited for most of the everyday projects people do. For example, I recently mounted speakers to the walls of my living room. The wires come out of the wall, so to make that work well without just having holes in the wall, I mounted outlet boxes in the wall and covered then with panels that let the wire through. Those outlet boxes are screwed into the studs (the boxes have little channels in them to run the screw through). Those screws aren't structural, and probably wouldn't fit if they were.

adolph 5y ago

Something I appreciate about HN is the number of reverse-bikeshedding moments there are and for which the parent comment exemplifies. Points out a critical flaw and explains it in plain language with no rhetorical flourishes. Bikeshedding describes our tendency to spend too much time discussing trivial matters, and too little time discussing important matters as a result. It describes the inverse relationship between time spent and the importance of an issue. https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/bikeshedding/ https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/bikeshedding/

gjvc 5y ago
but this is closer to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham%27s_Law (ISMETA)

jbluepolarbear 5y ago

Was thinking the same thing. Also a nail gum would make putting that frame together pretty easy. I worked in construction until I was in my mid 20’s and I’m amazed at how uninformed people are when building sheds and tiny homes. YouTube also spreads a lot of bad info.

cgh 5y ago

> You can get structural screws, but they're uncommon, expensive Agreed that eg GRK R4 structural screws are pricey, but they are widely available. You can buy them at Home Depot, for example. I do like them better than nails for small projects.

pjc50 5y ago

> Not that anything about this shed is built to code This is why we can't have nice, or at least affordable but slightly less than perfect, things. I would also note that, while I'm sure everyone's right about the rules in Santa Cruz, this is jurisdiction specific. In the UK, if your shed is less than 15m^2 and is not used as living accomodation, no building regulations apply, and you can build it with screws, nails, or corrugated cardboard and PVA glue if you're so inclined.

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DoreenMichele 5y ago
This is why we can't have nice, or at least affordable but slightly less than perfect, things. I really enjoyed reading the article just as someone who likes writing and reading. It was very engaging and I enjoyed the process he went through from having an idea to finally committing to it and I especially liked him commenting on things like choosing materials that fit in his car. I also really am enjoying the comments on HN from knowledgeable, experienced people who know whereof they speak and I appreciate your comment because I spent years homeless and I've studied housing issues and lack of affordable housing is a root cause of homelessness in the US. So this is a real issue and I'm reminded of the fact that after racist White people burned down "Black Wall Street" they then began interfering with the rebuilding by trying to pass more stringent fire safety codes when building codes had nothing to do with why it burned down. It burned down because hateful people torched it. And I wonder how we solve this. I wonder how we balance all those concerns of not squelching creative impetus and not squelching a desire to add something cost effectively with real world concerns that "If you do it that way, people die or you burn out your Ethernet card (or whatever)." Seems like with the internet being a thing, we could find ways to balance those many issues. But so far we really aren't. People in the know are often comfortably well off. They have no problem with saying "Well, pay the few extra bucks to do it right." and the result is some people are sleeping in the streets and it falls on deaf ears when you try to draw those connections. It's frustrating.
- caslon 5y ago

14 5y ago

That was the first thing I noticed as well. I don’t blame him mind you since I would have assumed they are better and easier as well but recently my brother who is a carpenter told me you have to use nails they are needed. This just reminds me that being handy is good but knowing code is critical for some thing. In this case he will probably get away with just screws.

rectang 5y ago
> being handy is good but knowing code is critical for some things The subject of building code seems vast. How can you get to the point where you even know what you don't know?
- 14 5y ago
  The simple answer is testing. When you go to school you get a test that certifies you have a basic knowledge. It may not cover every aspect but will teach you where to find the answers you don’t know.
  - rectang 5y ago
    Oh? School for what? Maybe general contracting? A while back I looked briefly into what it would take to be an electrician, and it seemed like there was quite a lot to know. I wonder how soon you get to the stage where you could wire up a shed like this with full confidence that you've done everything to code. From there, how many other subjects do you have to get right? I learned how to swing a hammer as a kid but I wouldn't know jack about designing load bearing structures, weather proofing, foundations, hanging windows and doors, etc — let alone plumbing, HVAC, etc.
    - 14 5y ago
      Electrical is a whole field of expertise. To wire a shed to code however is not that hard. I’ve done my dad’s tiny home personally and then had my electrician friend come in after and said it was all done and to code. Some of the skills overlap but usually the carpenters do the work and at a certain point the electrician comes in and does all his work then the carpenter finish up. The real secret to getting fully comfortable is doing an apprenticeship where someone is going over all your work.

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kwhitefoot 5y ago

This might be true where you are. It is not universally so.

crawshaw 5y ago

To support your point: if you are a DIYer who is not super cost sensitive, for example if you have a tech job, then I highly recommend structural screws. (I quite like GRK RSS fasteners.) It requires more research than you might think to find screws that are properly rated, but it is much more fun to do small projects with an impact driver than a nail gun or hammer.

sethev 5y ago

While you're not wrong about nails vs screws for framing - this a 6x6 box, it's not going to matter.

speg 5y ago
Signed in to say this. I built a shed in my backyard as one of my first DIY projects and also used screws. Not even structural screws, just standard 3” construction screws. The thing is solid. No one is walking around on it. It isn’t under the same stresses as a two story house. Like you said, it’s a box! I did my research, understood that nails provide better strength. I chose screws. So do many other shed builders.
- deleted 5y ago
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- alex_sf 5y ago
  Did you run 120v to it? Are you inside of it for 8 hours a day? Is it 3 feet from your house? I'm all for hack jobs when the consequences are low. This is not one of those situations.

ShakataGaNai 5y ago

Thank you for explaining the screw/nail/framing thing. I knew nails were used for framing but always thought "screws are better, why not use screws for everything?". TIL.

nine_k 5y ago

I wonder how much the code should apply to a lightweight construction like pictured. Not legally but from the civil engineering point of view. I completely agree that running power and network cables in the same conduit is dangerous. I'm not as certain about the use of screws. To me, it looks that even if the whole shed collapses, the rubble would have hard time seriously hurting the person inside (except for the glass; I hope it's safety glass).

throwaway9870 5y ago

You can get structural rated screws in pretty much any Home Depot or Lowes in the US and they don't cost that much relative to all the other expenses building that shed. Telling people to not use structural screws is wrong, they are far superior to nails for DIY person. For starters using the right nail isn't that easy either - do you know if you inspector allows clipped head nails? Are you driving them in pressure treated wood? If so, do you have the right nail? With a GRK R4, you don't have to worry about any of those issues. They are easy to drive with an impact driver, for a noob, they are faster than driving a nail by hand, they can be removed, they are less likely to split wood. The important thing here is that neither nails nor screws are "all the same". Know what you are using them for and use the correct ones. If you use any hangers or other ties, you can generally use screws or nails, but you MUST read the spec sheet from the manufacture to get the correct ones. Even "professional" home builders frequently use the wrong fasteners for these applications. https://www.grkfasteners.com/support/code-approvals https://www.grkfasteners.com/support/code-approvals

teh_klev 5y ago

Seriously people, it's a glorified crate with some openings, in the UK you wouldn't even need planning permission for something like this. I think a bunch of folks need to get off their high horses about "building codes" and sort out their perspective. Sure nails might be the correct thing for a much larger structure, but for this piddly wee thing, who cares? If there's an earthquake then the adjacent house is likely to flatten this box regardless of fasteners used. My only concern would be the electrical and that they'd hooked up a separate breaker for the "crate supply". Yes defo make sure that's correct. But....It's just a shed

DannyBee 5y ago

The cost structural screws really isn’t that bad anymore. But for anything larger than a shed it’s still cheaper to get a metal connector gun

davidbanham 5y ago

Also, it’s just not that hard to “undo” a nailed framing joint. Bang the top piece of wood with a hammer from the underside. It will separate from the other piece with the nails still in it. Now bang the nails out by hitting the pointy bit with your hammer. Job done. 45 seconds of work, just need to be comfortable on the tools.