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I'm very concerned about these and similar (e.g., recent New York) sort of dictates that place large populations at the sole mercy of the electrical grid with n

I'm very concerned about these and similar (e.g., recent New York) sort of dictates that place large populations at the sole mercy of the electrical grid with no robust backup. If the electricity goes out - recalling recent events in Texas here - do you leave everyone to freeze to death? In the near future, majority electric cars means you won't have any transportation either? Not so many years ago, as a teenager, I recall a hurricane knocking out the electricity for several days. At least back then we still had working gas-powered vehicles and landline telephones. Particularly with some of the bitter winters in Canada I worry for the safety and security of your average citizens that aren't prepping with emergency generators, fuel reserves, and whatnot, and I hope there's a stronger motivation behind this than some politician's virtue signalling environmentalist scorecard. Am I exaggerating the risks?

seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> At least back then we still had working gas-powered vehicles and landline telephones. How did the gas pumps work without electricity? Or, if the gas stations have power, why would it be impossible to charge an electric car there? Landlines having their own power just meant they could go down on their own (eg, it was possible to lose phone while still having power). I don’t see how that would be more robust than a cell network with independently powered cells during a natural disaster.
- m0lecules 5y ago
  Landlines are backed by large -48V battery banks, the uptime on landline phone service is much higher than the power grid.
throwawaysea 5y ago
No you’re not exaggerating. I have both a high efficiency electric heat pump and a high efficiency natural gas furnace. Not only is the gas furnace significantly cheaper to operate, which surprised me given my heat pump is newer and among the most efficient available, but my gas furnace is also far more effective when the temperature is low (approaching freezing and below). The heat pump takes a lot longer to adjust temperatures and it feels like it struggles to keep up. The one complaint I have about my gas furnace is that it needs electricity to operate (ignition and blower fan) but that could theoretically be handled with a backup generator. There are alternatives that are fully independent of electricity though. I’m also definitely wary of dependence on the grid and the sweeping rush to legislate every daily activity (cooking, driving, heating, etc) into that dependence. Over a decade back we had a bad storm that knocked out power for over 10 days. Luckily our natural gas and water service worked just fine, which kept us from freezing or starving. Ban based governance leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
dredmorbius 5y ago
Bans such as these are for new construction, which as anyone who's been following house asset bubble inflation, housing crisis, homelessness, and home-affordability news over the past decade or five is aware is at dismally low rates. Quebec 2020 new housing starts were 619k, 2016 census reports 3,531,660 units. That is, 17% or less of housing is new construction in any given year. (Not all housing starts finish.) Starts: https://open.canada.ca/data/en/dataset/a1361030-c554-4bf1-83fb-42392c03e1da/resource/fd0726f5-fb85-4cb9-af82-faff81bf70e8 https://open.canada.ca/data/en/dataset/a1361030-c554-4bf1-83...) 2106 Census, Households: https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/hlt-fst/housing-logement/Table.cfm?Lang=E&T=11&Geo=00 https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/hl... That is, a new-construction regulation will slowly phase out gas usage over time, and phase in additional all-electric homes (already a large fraction of all homes in Canada as TFA notes). Issues, reliability, and mitigations (e.g., alternative emergency heating and cooking accomodations) can be assessed and developed as the plan proceeds. People worldwide will have to transition off fossil fuels, and the only way to accomplish this will be through regulatory action.
kotaKat 5y ago
This. I'm afraid too, being in NY, with a potential looming threat that wood burning might be banned some day down the line[1]. My entire house relies on wood pellet heating for a majority of the living area, and as I rent, this isn't a tenable option to just "give up". Sure, my landlord would have to adapt, but this is a ridiculous thing. The NYC natural gas ban is equally silly when you realize that most of the power is coming from natural gas powerplants - so we're just shifting the point of use of gas back to the power grid itself while sticking consumers with ineffective electric equipment (since natural gas appliances are cheap -- fancy electric heat pumps etc are not.) [1] https://www.localsyr.com/news/your-stories/your-stories-is-new-york-state-putting-a-ban-to-burning-wood-in-2022/ https://www.localsyr.com/news/your-stories/your-stories-is-n...
tentacleuno 5y ago
> I recall a hurricane knocking out the electricity for several days. At least back then we still had working gas-powered vehicles and landline telephones I know. I really feel like wireless landlines should have more protection against that sort of thing. With the ones I've had at least, if the hub connected to your phone line loses electricity, the handsets are essentially beeping bricks nagging you about a power cut. I really wish this was factored into the design more. It would be interesting to see a wireless landline that also worked as a standard phone, when docked into the main hub. When you dock the phone in the hub, there's two copper prongs that make contact. Surely they could be used to pass-through analogue telephone signals in the event of lost power to the hub? Oh, addendum: I actually have an old sage rotary telephone I can put my hand on, but of course the line doesn't support pulse dialling so you can't actually ring out on it (though it can take incoming calls). It can't 'press' numbers, either. Such a shame. You can actually convert pulse to tone signals through something called a DTMF module. In short, you take apart the phone, move around some contacts, add one or two resistors (and of course the module) and you're off to the races. Oh, while writing my comment I found out there's actually discrete modules for pulse to tone conversion that you MITM your rotary phone with, so no DIY required. You can buy them from a few online stores[0], too. [0]: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pulse+to+tone+converter https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pulse+to+tone+converter

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

> At least back then we still had working gas-powered vehicles and landline telephones. How did the gas pumps work without electricity? Or, if the gas stations have power, why would it be impossible to charge an electric car there? Landlines having their own power just meant they could go down on their own (eg, it was possible to lose phone while still having power). I don’t see how that would be more robust than a cell network with independently powered cells during a natural disaster.

m0lecules 5y ago
Landlines are backed by large -48V battery banks, the uptime on landline phone service is much higher than the power grid.

throwawaysea 5y ago

No you’re not exaggerating. I have both a high efficiency electric heat pump and a high efficiency natural gas furnace. Not only is the gas furnace significantly cheaper to operate, which surprised me given my heat pump is newer and among the most efficient available, but my gas furnace is also far more effective when the temperature is low (approaching freezing and below). The heat pump takes a lot longer to adjust temperatures and it feels like it struggles to keep up. The one complaint I have about my gas furnace is that it needs electricity to operate (ignition and blower fan) but that could theoretically be handled with a backup generator. There are alternatives that are fully independent of electricity though. I’m also definitely wary of dependence on the grid and the sweeping rush to legislate every daily activity (cooking, driving, heating, etc) into that dependence. Over a decade back we had a bad storm that knocked out power for over 10 days. Luckily our natural gas and water service worked just fine, which kept us from freezing or starving. Ban based governance leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

dredmorbius 5y ago

Bans such as these are for new construction, which as anyone who's been following house asset bubble inflation, housing crisis, homelessness, and home-affordability news over the past decade or five is aware is at dismally low rates. Quebec 2020 new housing starts were 619k, 2016 census reports 3,531,660 units. That is, 17% or less of housing is new construction in any given year. (Not all housing starts finish.) Starts: https://open.canada.ca/data/en/dataset/a1361030-c554-4bf1-83fb-42392c03e1da/resource/fd0726f5-fb85-4cb9-af82-faff81bf70e8 https://open.canada.ca/data/en/dataset/a1361030-c554-4bf1-83...) 2106 Census, Households: https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/hlt-fst/housing-logement/Table.cfm?Lang=E&T=11&Geo=00 https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/hl... That is, a new-construction regulation will slowly phase out gas usage over time, and phase in additional all-electric homes (already a large fraction of all homes in Canada as TFA notes). Issues, reliability, and mitigations (e.g., alternative emergency heating and cooking accomodations) can be assessed and developed as the plan proceeds. People worldwide will have to transition off fossil fuels, and the only way to accomplish this will be through regulatory action.

kotaKat 5y ago

This. I'm afraid too, being in NY, with a potential looming threat that wood burning might be banned some day down the line[1]. My entire house relies on wood pellet heating for a majority of the living area, and as I rent, this isn't a tenable option to just "give up". Sure, my landlord would have to adapt, but this is a ridiculous thing. The NYC natural gas ban is equally silly when you realize that most of the power is coming from natural gas powerplants - so we're just shifting the point of use of gas back to the power grid itself while sticking consumers with ineffective electric equipment (since natural gas appliances are cheap -- fancy electric heat pumps etc are not.) [1] https://www.localsyr.com/news/your-stories/your-stories-is-new-york-state-putting-a-ban-to-burning-wood-in-2022/ https://www.localsyr.com/news/your-stories/your-stories-is-n...

tentacleuno 5y ago

> I recall a hurricane knocking out the electricity for several days. At least back then we still had working gas-powered vehicles and landline telephones I know. I really feel like wireless landlines should have more protection against that sort of thing. With the ones I've had at least, if the hub connected to your phone line loses electricity, the handsets are essentially beeping bricks nagging you about a power cut. I really wish this was factored into the design more. It would be interesting to see a wireless landline that also worked as a standard phone, when docked into the main hub. When you dock the phone in the hub, there's two copper prongs that make contact. Surely they could be used to pass-through analogue telephone signals in the event of lost power to the hub? Oh, addendum: I actually have an old sage rotary telephone I can put my hand on, but of course the line doesn't support pulse dialling so you can't actually ring out on it (though it can take incoming calls). It can't 'press' numbers, either. Such a shame. You can actually convert pulse to tone signals through something called a DTMF module. In short, you take apart the phone, move around some contacts, add one or two resistors (and of course the module) and you're off to the races. Oh, while writing my comment I found out there's actually discrete modules for pulse to tone conversion that you MITM your rotary phone with, so no DIY required. You can buy them from a few online stores[0], too. [0]: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pulse+to+tone+converter https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pulse+to+tone+converter