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The Coverage of Theranos Is Utter Bullshit (2015)
- hliyan 5y agoThe author appears to be still at it, seemingly unrepentant and followed by a hundred thousand people: https://twitter.com/theSamParr/status/1476732367805067272 https://twitter.com/theSamParr/status/1476732367805067272
- Guest42 5y agoSometimes it seems as though cognitive dissonance and word-count go hand in hand.
- kurthr 5y agoWow,Latest Tweet: " I don’t care what they say: 2021 was fucking awesome. 2022 will be even better. "
- marcellus23 5y agoThat’s just the tweet that the parent linked to.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- tandymodel100 5y agoI think this is a perfectly valid opinion, far more defensible than his take on Theranos' coverage.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago[flagged]
- ineedasername 5y agoPutting aside anything else, the implication that 2020/2021 was bad for yuppies is a bit... selective. If you're going to put this writer's comments in context of suffering through this time period, you really should be doing so against the backdrop of essential workers whose concerns were more about how they would continue to earn a paycheck when schools were remote and childcare unavailable, or simply had to put their own health at risk, or lost their jobs and now find themselves under a mountain of debt, past-due rent for 1.5 years, and pending evictions now that the moratorium has ended.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
- alexanderdmitri 5y agoI'm probably more of a whisky & mescaline socialist myself, but this tweet seems to be a pretty vapid and vague summary of the year from a journalist. Maybe it's a problem with Twitter as a medium in general? People over analyze these snippets and ultimately derive whatever they want to. Suddenly things like kidnapping, brutal rape and children dying of malaria start coming up and that's intense. The weirdest thing is seeing Twitter appear in more and more journalism. BBC constantly references tweets in it's articles[0], I'm not sure why. A good tweet says nothing, suggests everything, gets people emotional and puts isolated individuals into a mob mentality. It's like a retirement home for pregnant mares. I also had something about propaganda versus journalism, but I'm kinda tripping out here and losing my threads. John could probably say this better than me. Brb. [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59750154 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59750154
- throwawaylinux 5y agoYes, like most tweets this one is pretty vapid too. Not sure what's unusual about it as tweets go, there must be a million of them complaining about how bad 2020 and 2021 were which are no more valid or less vapid. The problem here is simply that differing thoughts and opinions are unwelcome among the intelligentsia.
- paulpauper 5y agopeter schiff has 600k followers despite being wrong about everything being right and having a successful personal brand are not the same skillset.
- roenxi 5y agoNo doubt he's got 600k followers due to his personal brand. But "wrong about everything" is a a bit unfair. He's been telling people to keep a few % of their wealth in gold and that has been advice that is ageing really well. Ditto his commentary that the money printing will continue to get more extreme until the damage is beyond question even to the average US voter (it might take a while to get that bad!).
- option_greek 5y agoYou mean not aging really well? Just compare rise in gold prices in last 10 years to equities or commodities or real estate or crypto.
- roenxi 5y agoThose are all meant to be investments; gold is for the part of a portfolio that needs to maintain its value in a market crash. Gold is proving to be a much better option than cash or bonds. And with the exception of the unlucky souls who bought in 2011-2012, gold has been reasonably competitive with equities. Not as good, but much lower risk.
- paulpauper 5y agobonds pay a yield. gold does not. so you get income from bonds in addition to a hedge instrument. Gold's returns are not competitive at all compare to S&P 500.
- roenxi 5y agoOver the last 20 years the gold price is going up at an average rate of ~9% per annum (nominal). If your bond yields are doing that well then you have an excellent ability to find bonds. An approximately 6% real yield is perfectly comparable to what someone might plan on out of the stock market on the theory that stock returns over the long run should roughly match GDP growth. Stocks are a bit overvalued at the moment what with very low interest rates.
- KennyBlanken 5y agoThe author should appear on Dancing with the Stars, because the article was some Fred Astaire level dancing, managing to avoid mentioning that the company handled nearly a million test results and a "significant number" of them were bullshit - and that Holmes spent years lying to regulators, investors, and reporters. Think about how many people's medical care was affected by her. Even if 10% of the results were wrong, that's 100,000 results. Nature does a decent job of summing up the mess: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05149-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05149-2
- jjeaff 5y agoI see no evidence that the author read the WSJ article he tried to refute. Because he provided zero refutation to any of the specific facts reported. It's just sort of, that article said she was bad, but I don't think so.
- tandymodel100 5y agoI mean, he's right about that though, even if his opinion on Theranos was 100% wrong
- samp615 5y agoYes that’s me!!
- maneesh 5y agoMy man
- cercatrova 5y agoSay what you want but The Hustle newsletter is great, it is one of the most well known business newsletters in the startup world.
- aaronbrethorst 5y agoWell, this story aged poorly.
- gonab 5y agoMakes me think about all the things being currently written has certain, that have the highest magnitude of uncertainty
- paulpauper 5y agoin all honestly, the WSJ article was like when the first time a negative article was published about Enron in 2001. Few believed it, until suddenly and all at once it became obvious that something was wrong. In hindsight it is easy to say that he was wrong, but major media publications write negative stories about start-ups all the time. The NYTs published a negative story about Tesla in 2013 about how its electric cars did not work well in cold weather, in which the test driver pretended that his tesla ran out of electricity by revving the engine a long time--8 years and 1000s of points higher in share price, so much for that. Look at all the negative stories about Facebook in 2007-2011 for example. Or about Instagram or Uber.
- colechristensen 5y agoFor everything there are naysayers, you’re right in that it isn’t helpful to point in hindsight and say “see we should have listened!” when you can find people saying things like that about literally everything.
- crdrost 5y agoI don't recall that being a hit piece, although I guess it had the function of one. What I remember being really shocking was, this was apparently a science journalist who was advised by Tesla support to do something that violated the second law of thermodynamics (“you need to do as much regenerative braking as possible!” or similar)... and then apparently didn't know enough physics to realize that was an awful idea. I came away from it thinking the reporter was incompetent, not malicious.
- xyzzyz 5y agoYes, as much as the mainstream media went to shit, WSJ is still above the level of NYT, which basically is a tabloid targeting people who consider themselves educated.
- garbagecoder 5y agoBoth have decent reporting and batshit opinion sections.
- 5y ago
- ineedasername 5y agoThankfully for Theranos, in a few weeks this incident will look like nothing more than a minor setback Foot -> mouth. [0] Holmes will still be on the cover of tech magazines. Pretty much true - [0] somewhat understandable before more info came out, but the support was a bit breathless and over the top verging on blind faith.
- mwattsun 5y agoWhen the verdict comes out I'm riding my bike to the court house to watch the reporters on the steps ask the questions. Theranos is a fascinating story that has almost become mythological.
- hellbannedguy 5y agoThe only reason I find it interesting is because she started that company when people were still thinking any new tech will change the world. You guys were still drooling over Zuckerburg, and that movie. (Some claim different, but for many Zuck was John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever for a generation of nerds. Yes, it's embarrassing now, because they All sold out. Facebook, Google, etc. were going to make society better. The story is still unfolding, but greed rules when you get out of school? I guess? She copied Steve Jobs with her rediculious attire, and we all were afaraid to ask the tough questions because of her gender. Everytime I questioned her company, someone would accuse me of misogyney in a subtle ways. In the end, she blamed her actions on that little fat guy who followed her around like a hungry puppy dog. In a way, I'm glad we had a Holmes. Getting that gold rush money was irritating for those that didn't have the inside friends, or the wealthy parents.
- Apocryphon 5y agoIf people watched The Social Network and thought it was a heroic portrayal of a visionary making tech to change the world, they didn’t watch The Social Network.
- mwattsun 5y agoI'm fascinated because I don't understand how a bunch of rich, powerful men (they were mostly men) fall for this? Was she the daughter they wished they had? Was she like an angel fallen from heaven with an odd hairstyle and deep voice that gave a subtle signal she was not used to inhabiting a human body, and she came here to save millions of lives with her device? The ability to hypnotize rich and powerful men and the angelic aspect of it is why I call it almost mythological, like Odysseus and the Sirens.
- rdiddly 5y agoThis is amazing. In all the ways.
- bcantrill 5y agoFor whatever it's worth, I came across this incredible piece in going through some of the older HN stories on Theranos[0][1], which make for absolutely mesmerizing reading now -- and a vivid reminder that HN is an important historic record! [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6349349 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6349349 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7951019 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7951019
- crsv 5y agoNever forget Medman77 with the call of the century on that one in the comments.
- sydthrowaway 5y agoPlease link to the comment
- School-Cotton 5y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6349808 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6349808
- caseyf7 5y agoAnd notice how it was downvoted to near the bottom of the page. Not all of the best/well informed comments rise to the top.
- JohnJamesRambo 5y agoI upvote now and send a tiny ripple into the fabric of the universe’s karma.
- divbzero 5y agomedman77 only ever posted that one comment and had karma of 81 as of just now (2022-01-02T04:53Z).
- exdsq 5y agoWritten with such conviction and yet so, so wrong. "Theranos won’t go bankrupt, their investors are still going to get rich, and Holmes will still be on the cover of tech magazines. In fact, in the next few years Theranos will only become stronger."
- mrosett 5y agoThe original author's reaction to this being on the front page of HN is almost certainly "All publicity is good publicity."
- csours 5y agoI'm still fascinated by this story. The reality distortion field is something to be studied and pondered. Sometimes it leads to great outcomes, when it motivates people to grow beyond their comfort zones. Sometimes it's fraud. Is a hopeful statement about the future a lie? --- To be clear about my own beliefs in this matter: Theranos and Elizabeth Holmes committed crimes and tried to bury them and the people who tried to bring those crimes to light. If the fraud was not in the medical field, I would find some room for leeway. If the company did not persecute the whistle-blowers; If the lies weren't so blatant; If there was a feasible technology under development ... --- An analogy - right now, very many people want self driving cars to be a reality. Are any (or how many) of those companies committing fraud? Business failure is not fraud, but fraud can be found at failing businesses.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- 3a2d29 5y agoFunny you mention this because I have a relative who works in the automobile industry who compared Holmes to Musk (Just sharing his point of view, don't shoot the messenger). I will say though misrepresenting products or taking advantage of positive publicity certainly is something Musk and many Silicon Valley personalities do. Holmes is a bad person for endangering lives, but I can see the same huge critics who attack her now become the people that silence negative opinions about her, if only her story was slightly different.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- divbzero 5y ago> The reality distortion field is something to be studied and pondered. It makes me wonder if there’s an alternate history where Steve Jobs stretched the truth, had no products pan out successfully, and ended up being tried and pilloried as a fraud. But I don’t think that’s fair to Jobs? Ultimately he had enough reality behind his distortion field to stand the test of time.
- redis_mlc 5y ago
- duxup 5y agoThey had nothing, nobody saw them demonstrate anything because they had nothing, and yet folks ran to defend them. Presumably over some sense of fairness or something?
- DoreenMichele 5y agoSadly, there is almost never any meaningful discussion or analysis of the role her gender likely played in this mess. I made a stab at talking about it only very seldom and it generally didn't get well received nor taken seriously as any kind of valid point of view, even though my interest is as a woman trying to sort out how you actually find your path forward.
- yuy910616 5y agoIt's almost taboo to feel bad for her! I think she committed a crime - but compare to the coverage to, for example, Madoff, it certainly seems rather different. I guess it cuts both ways - she certainly garnered more attention than your average unicorn startup CEO. Now those same forces are working against her.
- DoreenMichele 5y agoI don't feel bad for her and I'm not talking about "Poor baby! Men are such meanie faces!" Links to things I dared to open my mouth and say in the past: Me commenting on how I think her gender impacted things: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11450442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11450442 Me commenting on my frustration at the amount of press the debacle got: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14143057 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14143057
- oivey 5y agoYour first comment suggests that she merely wasn't getting good criticism because men were fawning over her, and that's why her technology didn't work. We'll see the verdict from the trial, but at this point it is pretty solidly documented that the technology and company she built around it were a deliberate fraud. It seems rather cut and dry. Your second comment (double quoted here to emphasize that it's a quote you made up) says ""Yup, that's what happens when a woman is in charge of a business"" which I would also describe as a pretty extreme mischaracterization of the reaction to her behavior.
- 5y ago
- mikl 5y agoArticle ends with: > Thankfully for Theranos, in a few weeks this incident will look like nothing more than a minor setback. [...] > Theranos won’t go bankrupt, their investors are still going to get rich, and Holmes will still be on the cover of tech magazines. In fact, in the next few years Theranos will only become stronger. Which of course turned out to be hilariously wrong. A lesson in the value of the opinions of pundits (approximately zero).
- peterbmarks 5y agoDidn't age well. To their credit, they've left the story up.
- bane 5y agoI was very outspoken about Theranos, and particularly Holmes, early on. (2015) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10765996 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10765996 (2015) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10800002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10800002 (2015) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10799261 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10799261 (2016) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10983747 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10983747 (2016) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12053721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12053721 The problem, for me, was not terribly hard to see, having accidentally put some time into a similarly run startup (not in healthcare thankfully) and run away screaming. I can see people falling into the story and charisma of Holmes. But at some point, people start wrapping their identities too much into these stories and when things are really going off the rails lose their minds trying to make believe that things are a-ok. I have no idea if Holmes will see significant prison time. I believe she should because she did wrong, but compassionately also believe she needs significant mental health resources. Looking back at the context around some of the old discussions here I was reminded of just how bizarre her behavior was, and how harmful that behavior became at the helm of a healthcare company.
- Closi 5y agoAgree with all your comments linked but they were hardly “early on” - the first post you put up was around 3 months after the WSJ article which signalled the start of the end (and in some tellings was the thing that brought the company down earlier than it would have otherwise failed). Let’s remember they were founded in 2003, and by March 2016 Holmes was barred from running any labs.
- denton-scratch 5y agoThat video of her prancing around to MC Hammer was certainly bizarre.
- sjtindell 5y agoHow funny. Does anyone have any opinion of this hustle co? Sounds like content I might like, but I read an article and they (founders) repeatedly referred to themselves as ultra-cool, millennial, no-code founders, and seemed to call everyone else a douche. The article was insanely douchey. Worth keeping an eye on them though?
- satisfice 5y agoInteresting that this article itself is bullshit, according to the definition that bullshitters don’t even care what the truth is. The author of the piece most definitely believes in crafting stories. What he did not sufficiently care about was facts. Apparently he was just intuitively certain that spunky little Lizzy Holmes was no psychopath or crook. That was good enough for him and he wanted it to be good enough for us, too.
- encryptluks2 5y agoIt could also be that the media is often just a form of PR for companies
- aaron695 5y ago
- samp615 5y agoHey! I’m the author. I had a strong opinion. My prediction was wrong! But I left the article up because I have a lot of opinions and hey, I’m wrong sometimes…no shame! Also I think I was like 24 when I wrote that and I love seeing how my write has evolved. For the record, I stand by the sentiment, which is the media vilify startup founders. But my chosen example was very, very bad.
- glimmung 5y agoKudos for leaving it up.
- shubik22 5y agoThanks for leaving the post up and for responding here. I’m curious if and how your approach to writing has changed since you wrote the piece. What strikes me about the piece is the certainty and lack of caveats in it, especially given it’s about an area in which I assume you don’t have any particular expertise (blood testing — please correct me if I’m mistaken). One takeaway from the Theranos saga for me was that the type of fraud perpetrated by Elizabeth Holmes can have very real consequences on people’s lives beyond some rich investors losing their money. The stories about people receiving incorrect test results, the irresponsibility with which Theranos ran their lab, not to mention Holmes using David Boies to attack the brave whistleblowers in my mind go far beyond the “fake it till you make it” / “mistakes were made” framing of the case. If I had played a role in supporting that type of behavior, however small, I would probably have a different takeaway than “got this specific example wrong! but my core point was correct”.
- Mister_X 5y agoThis has been my fave story of 2021 because it was clear to me very early on that she was a Fraud using psychological methods to manipulate older men. If you haven't been following the trial, this series at business insider has been quite good. The Elizabeth Holmes trial Start with the Sep 9, 2021, 11:29 AM posting. https://www.businessinsider.com/category/elizabeth-holmes-trialTech https://www.businessinsider.com/category/elizabeth-holmes-tr...