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Quebec bans oil heating in new homes starting Dec. 31

31 points by tentacleuno 5y ago

SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
What is the backup for these systems when the temperatures drop below a range where the heat pump cannot keep up? Down south they use an “emergency” second-stage which is just electricity fed wires that glow hot and those are incredibly inefficient compared to a traditional gas fired furnace. However those temps usually happen a few days maximum every winter. Heat pumps are great when operating within certain temperature range but aren’t they much better suited for milder environments where they function reasonably well? Quebec temperatures regularly drop to the point where such “emergency” heat is necessary many days in the winter. Perhaps Canadian heat pumps are designed differently or have better backup mechanism? This article does not say whether other second stage heating sources than electricity are allowed but implies they are not.
- dflock 5y ago
  Electric heating elements - hot wires - are 100% efficient; All the incoming electrical energy is converted to heat. Wether they're more expensive than burning hydrocarbons depends on where you live - and hydrocarbons negative externalities remaining zero cost/outside the market. I'm not sure what the costs are in Ontario (where the electricity is mostly nuclear+hydro), but Canada does have a carbon tax, although it's still very low.
  - m463 5y ago
    > Electric heating elements - hot wires - are 100% efficient; All the incoming electrical energy is converted to heat. The problem is that we're used to other methods working at much greater than 100% efficiency, combined with the need for lots more heating when efficiency drops to a mere 100%
- b409ba0801cd21 5y ago
  Ground source heat pump systems can handle colder climates well. Underground, the temperature is rather stable through the year. This is especially true when the loops are installed vertically.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
    These seem nice but the Wikipedia article for GSHP implies only a million are installed globally - surely that cannot mean that Quebec is intending for this to be the predominant source of heating? Even with subsidization it seems the technology is prohibitively expensive for the average Canadian currently.
Reichhardt 5y ago
These bans are easy to legislate, but building codes (including for apartment blocks) should be updated to require Passivhaus and things like triple-glazed windows and ubiquitous EV charging.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  I've been arguing for a number of years now that one of the biggest impacts of switching off fossil fuels will be the mirror of what switching on to them resulted in: complete transformation of the built landscape, land-use patterns, construction, and transportation behaviours. Passivhaus and similar locale-aware construction methods would be an excellent adaptation.
ahefner 5y ago
I'm very concerned about these and similar (e.g., recent New York) sort of dictates that place large populations at the sole mercy of the electrical grid with no robust backup. If the electricity goes out - recalling recent events in Texas here - do you leave everyone to freeze to death? In the near future, majority electric cars means you won't have any transportation either? Not so many years ago, as a teenager, I recall a hurricane knocking out the electricity for several days. At least back then we still had working gas-powered vehicles and landline telephones. Particularly with some of the bitter winters in Canada I worry for the safety and security of your average citizens that aren't prepping with emergency generators, fuel reserves, and whatnot, and I hope there's a stronger motivation behind this than some politician's virtue signalling environmentalist scorecard. Am I exaggerating the risks?
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  > At least back then we still had working gas-powered vehicles and landline telephones. How did the gas pumps work without electricity? Or, if the gas stations have power, why would it be impossible to charge an electric car there? Landlines having their own power just meant they could go down on their own (eg, it was possible to lose phone while still having power). I don’t see how that would be more robust than a cell network with independently powered cells during a natural disaster.
  - m0lecules 5y ago
    Landlines are backed by large -48V battery banks, the uptime on landline phone service is much higher than the power grid.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  No you’re not exaggerating. I have both a high efficiency electric heat pump and a high efficiency natural gas furnace. Not only is the gas furnace significantly cheaper to operate, which surprised me given my heat pump is newer and among the most efficient available, but my gas furnace is also far more effective when the temperature is low (approaching freezing and below). The heat pump takes a lot longer to adjust temperatures and it feels like it struggles to keep up. The one complaint I have about my gas furnace is that it needs electricity to operate (ignition and blower fan) but that could theoretically be handled with a backup generator. There are alternatives that are fully independent of electricity though. I’m also definitely wary of dependence on the grid and the sweeping rush to legislate every daily activity (cooking, driving, heating, etc) into that dependence. Over a decade back we had a bad storm that knocked out power for over 10 days. Luckily our natural gas and water service worked just fine, which kept us from freezing or starving. Ban based governance leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
throwawaysea 5y ago
This ban doesn’t just end oil furnaces, but also prevents them from being replaced with any fossil fuel heating source, including natural gas furnaces. If the replacement forced upon everyone is so perfect, why isn’t it everyone’s natural choice? The modern political left has become obsessed with bans. This is a slippery slope and is incompatible with free societies where individuals have choice and agency. It’s one thing to encourage certain actions or educate people. It’s another thing entirely to override individual preferences and variations with a one size fits all dictate.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Fossil fuels carry massive externalties in both production and consumption which are not accounted for by the market. Since the market won't naturally incorporate full costs, other mechansims for imposing those costs, or otherwise manipulating behaviour, must be utilised. The answer to all market failures is not in fact market-it-harder.

31 points by tentacleuno 5y ago

What is the backup for these systems when the temperatures drop below a range where the heat pump cannot keep up? Down south they use an “emergency” second-stage which is just electricity fed wires that glow hot and those are incredibly inefficient compared to a traditional gas fired furnace. However those temps usually happen a few days maximum every winter. Heat pumps are great when operating within certain temperature range but aren’t they much better suited for milder environments where they function reasonably well? Quebec temperatures regularly drop to the point where such “emergency” heat is necessary many days in the winter. Perhaps Canadian heat pumps are designed differently or have better backup mechanism? This article does not say whether other second stage heating sources than electricity are allowed but implies they are not.

dflock 5y ago
Electric heating elements - hot wires - are 100% efficient; All the incoming electrical energy is converted to heat. Wether they're more expensive than burning hydrocarbons depends on where you live - and hydrocarbons negative externalities remaining zero cost/outside the market. I'm not sure what the costs are in Ontario (where the electricity is mostly nuclear+hydro), but Canada does have a carbon tax, although it's still very low.
- m463 5y ago
  > Electric heating elements - hot wires - are 100% efficient; All the incoming electrical energy is converted to heat. The problem is that we're used to other methods working at much greater than 100% efficiency, combined with the need for lots more heating when efficiency drops to a mere 100%
b409ba0801cd21 5y ago
Ground source heat pump systems can handle colder climates well. Underground, the temperature is rather stable through the year. This is especially true when the loops are installed vertically.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
  These seem nice but the Wikipedia article for GSHP implies only a million are installed globally - surely that cannot mean that Quebec is intending for this to be the predominant source of heating? Even with subsidization it seems the technology is prohibitively expensive for the average Canadian currently.

Reichhardt 5y ago

These bans are easy to legislate, but building codes (including for apartment blocks) should be updated to require Passivhaus and things like triple-glazed windows and ubiquitous EV charging.

dredmorbius 5y ago
I've been arguing for a number of years now that one of the biggest impacts of switching off fossil fuels will be the mirror of what switching on to them resulted in: complete transformation of the built landscape, land-use patterns, construction, and transportation behaviours. Passivhaus and similar locale-aware construction methods would be an excellent adaptation.

ahefner 5y ago

I'm very concerned about these and similar (e.g., recent New York) sort of dictates that place large populations at the sole mercy of the electrical grid with no robust backup. If the electricity goes out - recalling recent events in Texas here - do you leave everyone to freeze to death? In the near future, majority electric cars means you won't have any transportation either? Not so many years ago, as a teenager, I recall a hurricane knocking out the electricity for several days. At least back then we still had working gas-powered vehicles and landline telephones. Particularly with some of the bitter winters in Canada I worry for the safety and security of your average citizens that aren't prepping with emergency generators, fuel reserves, and whatnot, and I hope there's a stronger motivation behind this than some politician's virtue signalling environmentalist scorecard. Am I exaggerating the risks?

seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> At least back then we still had working gas-powered vehicles and landline telephones. How did the gas pumps work without electricity? Or, if the gas stations have power, why would it be impossible to charge an electric car there? Landlines having their own power just meant they could go down on their own (eg, it was possible to lose phone while still having power). I don’t see how that would be more robust than a cell network with independently powered cells during a natural disaster.
- m0lecules 5y ago
  Landlines are backed by large -48V battery banks, the uptime on landline phone service is much higher than the power grid.
throwawaysea 5y ago
No you’re not exaggerating. I have both a high efficiency electric heat pump and a high efficiency natural gas furnace. Not only is the gas furnace significantly cheaper to operate, which surprised me given my heat pump is newer and among the most efficient available, but my gas furnace is also far more effective when the temperature is low (approaching freezing and below). The heat pump takes a lot longer to adjust temperatures and it feels like it struggles to keep up. The one complaint I have about my gas furnace is that it needs electricity to operate (ignition and blower fan) but that could theoretically be handled with a backup generator. There are alternatives that are fully independent of electricity though. I’m also definitely wary of dependence on the grid and the sweeping rush to legislate every daily activity (cooking, driving, heating, etc) into that dependence. Over a decade back we had a bad storm that knocked out power for over 10 days. Luckily our natural gas and water service worked just fine, which kept us from freezing or starving. Ban based governance leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

throwawaysea 5y ago

This ban doesn’t just end oil furnaces, but also prevents them from being replaced with any fossil fuel heating source, including natural gas furnaces. If the replacement forced upon everyone is so perfect, why isn’t it everyone’s natural choice? The modern political left has become obsessed with bans. This is a slippery slope and is incompatible with free societies where individuals have choice and agency. It’s one thing to encourage certain actions or educate people. It’s another thing entirely to override individual preferences and variations with a one size fits all dictate.

dredmorbius 5y ago
Fossil fuels carry massive externalties in both production and consumption which are not accounted for by the market. Since the market won't naturally incorporate full costs, other mechansims for imposing those costs, or otherwise manipulating behaviour, must be utilised. The answer to all market failures is not in fact market-it-harder.