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One word: yes. https://www.hardwaretimes.com/gpu-mining-farm-w-over-4000-geforce-rtx-3070s-caught-on-cam-as-gamers-struggle-to-procure-graphics-cards/ https://

One word: yes. https://www.hardwaretimes.com/gpu-mining-farm-w-over-4000-geforce-rtx-3070s-caught-on-cam-as-gamers-struggle-to-procure-graphics-cards/ https://www.hardwaretimes.com/gpu-mining-farm-w-over-4000-ge... https://hothardware.com/news/a-look-inside-a-massive-rtx-3070-mining-farm-may-trigger-you https://hothardware.com/news/a-look-inside-a-massive-rtx-307... https://www.tomshardware.com/news/gpu-shortages-worsen-cryptocurrency-coin-miners-ethereum https://www.tomshardware.com/news/gpu-shortages-worsen-crypt... And energy prices, of course. More demand = higher prices. Also keep in mind that cryptocurrencies become harder to mine with time, therefore the pursuit of more powerful hardware and more energy isn't going to stop, therefore there's absolutely no way prices of hardware and energy will return to normal until governments won't stop this nonsense. Pushing for nuclear or carbon is just hiding the problem under the carpet: we don't need more energy because we already have plenty, but we must stop wasting it, especially in a way that is clearly bringing us to a path in which we will need more and more every year.

orasis 5y ago
"therefore there's absolutely no way prices of hardware and energy will return to normal until governments won't stop this nonsense." It will stop once the crypto prices reach parity with the hardware investments plus or minus further speculation.
- BoiledCabbage 5y ago
  Can you be more specific here? I see no mechanism for this to happen. Difficulty will simply increase from that point.
  - financetechbro 5y ago
    I believe they mean that once is gets to a point where crypto mining is no longer profitable (revs < costs) the demand for more powerful machines / tech will decrease
kingo55 5y ago
At least on the ethereum side they are moving to a Proof of Stake system which doesn't require the insane hardware and energy that Proof of Work consensus requires. So there will be some relief on the horizon. Also, I expect over time that fewer cryptos will use Proof of Work. Unless you're Bitcoin/Ethereum, proof of work chains get attacked all the time. Look at Ethereum Classic.
- ip26 5y ago
  How many years has etherium been putting off proof of stake now? Two? Three?
  - falcolas 5y ago
    At this point, it feels like the corporate perpetual “13 months out“. i.e. never coming, always on the horizon.
    - ikt 5y ago
      this is a major update to a system that handles trillions in transactions, i'm happy they're taking their time on it. tbh though very seriously likely this year, all the major infrastructure is in place
      - falcolas 5y ago
        And, as ever, the exact same thing was said early last year, too. And the year before, if my memory serves me. I’ll have more faith that it’s actually coming once Star Citizen comes out. Until it’s actually released, skepticism’s the safest bet.
        drdeca 5y ago
        Speaking of betting, What do prediction markets say about whether it will be out by what times?
        dcolkitt 5y ago
itsoktocry 5y ago
>therefore there's absolutely no way prices of hardware and energy will return to normal until governments won't stop this nonsense. For all its faults, the market is great at solving these problems. Though I suppose it depends on what you mean by "normal".
- kelseyfrog 5y ago
  The problem is that miners are buying GPUs. Without denying the problem, how can the market fix this?
  - jefftk 5y ago
    Historically, for many products, high demand leads to lower unit prices as manufacturers become more efficient. Since we're a decade into GPU mining, there's been a lot of time for manufacturers to adjust. While so far they have not been able to keep up with demand, I don't think it's clear that they never will.
    - kelseyfrog 5y ago
      Sorry, not following. Can you explain how efficiencies in GPU production interact with network difficulty to produce lower GPU prices? I'm not finding much in the literature.
      - jefftk 5y ago
        What makes hash-based proof of work function is that to produce some number of hashes you need to use some amount of real-world resources. In practice, the two main resource inputs are electricity and computational hardware. If hardware is scarce, as it is now, the hardware will be a large proportion of mining cost, while the more efficiently hardware can be produced, the more of the cost is electricity.
        kelseyfrog 5y ago
        How does that make miners not buy GPUs?
throwaway55421 5y ago
But we do need more energy. Energy can fix essentially any problem we have. Need to desalinate water? Energy. Need to heat your Arctic home? Energy. Being able to use energy in crazy and inefficient ways is a feature, not a bug. Everything you ever do outside of subsistence level agriculture is proof of that. The ideal state of being would be one in which we have limitless fusion power or similar and we basically just do whatever we wish. If we get that and alchemy we win the Universe. The problem is in not pricing in externalities. If I have a fusion reactor in my garden then I can use as much of it as I want and it has no negative effect on you. If we tax carbon heavily then Bitcoin and friends will actually get us to that future more quickly. That politicians are fucking around with stuff like low emission zones and labels on meat or whatever rather than just taxing carbon is almost genocidal at this point. It's hilariously off the mark.
- bnegreve 5y ago
  > The ideal state of being would be one in which we have limitless fusion power or similar and we basically just do whatever we wish. If we get that and alchemy we win the Universe. No, using energy inevitably changes the state of world we live in (that is actually the point). Use crazy amounts of energy in a distributed and unregulated manner, and the world will be nowhere like the one we evolved in, and we will die.
- rixed 5y ago
  > we do need more energy Sounds like ideology to me. I, for one, need many thing from basic food to nice music, but energy on its own in not in that list. I wonder what people picture when they say "energy" but probably not that thing that is equivalent to movement and that is always a constant by definition (at least here and now), and that increase entropy when we manipulate it (entropy being that thing every life forms is designed to fight). Anyway, carbon in the atmosphere may be a bigger problem than a fusion reactor in your garden, yet I'm a bit concerned by how much faster "we" could destroy our environment by producing more useless stuff if it became cheaper to do so.
  - yellowapple 5y ago
abraxas 5y ago
Crypto currency is an instantiation of Bostrom's paperclip maximizer running on a hybrid human/machine topology.
- squarefoot 5y ago
  Yes, very likely, although there's no AI involved and are the humans who are digging their own grave. I can easily picture a future in which 50% of the space available on the planet is allocated for energy production plants, the other 50% for mining farms, and there will be essentially only jobs related to these two activities available, just like using every resource to make paperclips. We started something that could make a nice Twilight Zone plot, and that's what worries me the most.

orasis 5y ago

"therefore there's absolutely no way prices of hardware and energy will return to normal until governments won't stop this nonsense." It will stop once the crypto prices reach parity with the hardware investments plus or minus further speculation.

BoiledCabbage 5y ago
Can you be more specific here? I see no mechanism for this to happen. Difficulty will simply increase from that point.
- financetechbro 5y ago
  I believe they mean that once is gets to a point where crypto mining is no longer profitable (revs < costs) the demand for more powerful machines / tech will decrease

kingo55 5y ago

At least on the ethereum side they are moving to a Proof of Stake system which doesn't require the insane hardware and energy that Proof of Work consensus requires. So there will be some relief on the horizon. Also, I expect over time that fewer cryptos will use Proof of Work. Unless you're Bitcoin/Ethereum, proof of work chains get attacked all the time. Look at Ethereum Classic.

ip26 5y ago
How many years has etherium been putting off proof of stake now? Two? Three?
- falcolas 5y ago
  At this point, it feels like the corporate perpetual “13 months out“. i.e. never coming, always on the horizon.
  - ikt 5y ago
    this is a major update to a system that handles trillions in transactions, i'm happy they're taking their time on it. tbh though very seriously likely this year, all the major infrastructure is in place
    - falcolas 5y ago
      And, as ever, the exact same thing was said early last year, too. And the year before, if my memory serves me. I’ll have more faith that it’s actually coming once Star Citizen comes out. Until it’s actually released, skepticism’s the safest bet.
      - drdeca 5y ago
        Speaking of betting, What do prediction markets say about whether it will be out by what times?
      - dcolkitt 5y ago

itsoktocry 5y ago

>therefore there's absolutely no way prices of hardware and energy will return to normal until governments won't stop this nonsense. For all its faults, the market is great at solving these problems. Though I suppose it depends on what you mean by "normal".

kelseyfrog 5y ago
The problem is that miners are buying GPUs. Without denying the problem, how can the market fix this?
- jefftk 5y ago
  Historically, for many products, high demand leads to lower unit prices as manufacturers become more efficient. Since we're a decade into GPU mining, there's been a lot of time for manufacturers to adjust. While so far they have not been able to keep up with demand, I don't think it's clear that they never will.
  - kelseyfrog 5y ago
    Sorry, not following. Can you explain how efficiencies in GPU production interact with network difficulty to produce lower GPU prices? I'm not finding much in the literature.
    - jefftk 5y ago
      What makes hash-based proof of work function is that to produce some number of hashes you need to use some amount of real-world resources. In practice, the two main resource inputs are electricity and computational hardware. If hardware is scarce, as it is now, the hardware will be a large proportion of mining cost, while the more efficiently hardware can be produced, the more of the cost is electricity.
      - kelseyfrog 5y ago
        How does that make miners not buy GPUs?

throwaway55421 5y ago

But we do need more energy. Energy can fix essentially any problem we have. Need to desalinate water? Energy. Need to heat your Arctic home? Energy. Being able to use energy in crazy and inefficient ways is a feature, not a bug. Everything you ever do outside of subsistence level agriculture is proof of that. The ideal state of being would be one in which we have limitless fusion power or similar and we basically just do whatever we wish. If we get that and alchemy we win the Universe. The problem is in not pricing in externalities. If I have a fusion reactor in my garden then I can use as much of it as I want and it has no negative effect on you. If we tax carbon heavily then Bitcoin and friends will actually get us to that future more quickly. That politicians are fucking around with stuff like low emission zones and labels on meat or whatever rather than just taxing carbon is almost genocidal at this point. It's hilariously off the mark.

bnegreve 5y ago
> The ideal state of being would be one in which we have limitless fusion power or similar and we basically just do whatever we wish. If we get that and alchemy we win the Universe. No, using energy inevitably changes the state of world we live in (that is actually the point). Use crazy amounts of energy in a distributed and unregulated manner, and the world will be nowhere like the one we evolved in, and we will die.
rixed 5y ago
> we do need more energy Sounds like ideology to me. I, for one, need many thing from basic food to nice music, but energy on its own in not in that list. I wonder what people picture when they say "energy" but probably not that thing that is equivalent to movement and that is always a constant by definition (at least here and now), and that increase entropy when we manipulate it (entropy being that thing every life forms is designed to fight). Anyway, carbon in the atmosphere may be a bigger problem than a fusion reactor in your garden, yet I'm a bit concerned by how much faster "we" could destroy our environment by producing more useless stuff if it became cheaper to do so.
- yellowapple 5y ago

abraxas 5y ago

Crypto currency is an instantiation of Bostrom's paperclip maximizer running on a hybrid human/machine topology.

squarefoot 5y ago
Yes, very likely, although there's no AI involved and are the humans who are digging their own grave. I can easily picture a future in which 50% of the space available on the planet is allocated for energy production plants, the other 50% for mining farms, and there will be essentially only jobs related to these two activities available, just like using every resource to make paperclips. We started something that could make a nice Twilight Zone plot, and that's what worries me the most.