4 ms·

But Omicron is infecting vaccinated at a very high rate. At this point, damned if you do or damned if you don't. We need to start moving on at this point.

awsthro00945 5y ago
This is a false equivalency. Being vaccinated or not is the difference between requiring days/weeks in the hospital or only spending 1-2 days with a mild headache. It's "mildly inconvenienced if you do, damned if you don't". I was at the hospital yesterday (for something unrelated to covid) and there are 0 rooms available. The hallways are still packed with unvaccinated people with covid laying in every open space they can find. Nurses and doctors are still worked past their breaking point. We cannot move on until the thick-skulled members of society realize that their unwillingness to get vaccinated is the number one thing stopping us from moving on.
- xeromal 5y ago
  It ain't happening though so we need to move on with it. There are too many stubborn people in the United States and probably elsewhere. There are people who would rather die than take the vaccine for whatever ridiculous reason so why are we sitting around waiting for them.
  - awsthro00945 5y ago
    I'll say it again: we cannot move on with it until people are vaccinated. It's not a choice. It's not something where we just say "eh well it looks like it won't get better so let's move on". It physically cannot happen.
    - xeromal 5y ago
      So let's assume these people never get vaccinated. We wait forever?
      - awsthro00945 5y ago
        You're still not understanding. We are not "waiting". Waiting implies that we are making some type of conscious choice to put things on hold. But there is no choice. We cannot simply choose to stop waiting. We cannot move on until people are vaccinated. We are blocked, not waiting.
        xeromal 5y ago
        Lol, you act like this is the first time in humanity's history that we've had a virus. Humanity continues despite it and we will continue despite many people choosing not get easily vaccinated. Eventually people will move on. It's the human condition.
        awsthro00945 5y ago
        Humanity "continuing" or "moving on" naturally due to the passage of time (which will be quite a long time) is a completely different thing than humanity "choosing" to move on. Your original comments imply/ask that humanity collectively "chooses" to move on and stop letting covid affect us, but again, that is simply not possible. It's not something we choose. Individuals can individually choose to pretend covid isn't a thing, but society as a whole cannot simply choose to suddenly restore our medical infrastructure, fix supply chains, grow the labor market, etc. Covid's effect on those things won't magically go away just because someone says "you know what, I'm tired of waiting on covid! I'm going to be normal now!" Adjustments to these will happen over time and humanity may "continue", but when that happens is not a choice we make.
        xeromal 5y ago
        See! We agree.
        UnpossibleJim 5y ago
        I mean, there is a third option that neither of you have presented. We could fix the emergency room and infectious disease ward situation with federal money, and then move on instead of using federal money to prolong lock downs. Addressing infrastructure isn't always popular, or the fastest, but it lasts longer and solves the problem of overcrowding. Yes, it might mean another 9 months to a year of lockdown, but it would be there still when (not if) another disaster occurs. Now, people will get angry at subsidizing private hospitals... but I could go on about how emergency care should be publicly funded anyway. But I digress.
    - loudmax 5y ago
      I think there's a possibility that omicron may mark the end of this pandemic. Anybody who refuses to get vaccinated will very likely get omicron within the next few weeks. So your immune system will either develop antibodies as a result of being vaccinated, or as a result of being infected. Well, there is the third option of dying from covid, but the current evidence seems to indicate that the risk of hospitalization or death from omicron is lower than from covid-19 or delta. To be sure, the descendants of the novel coronavirus that appeared in Wuhan in 2019 will float around the human population indefinitely. Omicron isn't the end of covid, but it could be the end of widespread hospitalizations and deaths. At least until the next crisis comes along.
    - nradov 5y ago
      I encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated, but moving on is an entirely separate issue. We can move on as soon as people stop panicking and decide to accept the risks. In fact that's already happening in some states. Strong circumstantial evidence indicates that another coronavirus HCoV-OC43 caused another worldwide pandemic starting in 1889. It killed a lot of people. There were no vaccines or effective treatments. The same virus is still endemic today; the only reason it doesn't kill many people today is that most of us get infected as youths and the resulting immunity protects us later in life. People moved on. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC544107/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC544107/
      - somewhereoutth 5y ago
        Circumstantial evidence - no direct evidence for HCoV-OC43. In fact it is simply conjecture. It would be instructive to compare the virulence factors encoded in SARS-CoV-2 vs the common cold coronas. People can move on when Covid stops making people seriously ill and compromising our healthcare systems. That is not yet, indeed the way we are going it may be never. Even if Omicron turns out to be 'mild', the next variant may not be.
- Lammy 5y ago
  > I was at the hospital yesterday (for something unrelated to covid) and there are 0 rooms available. The hallways are still packed with unvaccinated people with covid laying in every open space they can find. Nurses and doctors are still worked past their breaking point. Anecdote: I had to go to the ER in 2017 in San Francisco and my experience was exactly like this back then too. It was a ~4 hour wait in the ER waiting room, then another several hours on a bed in a bright loud busy hallway, then some tests, back to the hallway for a few hours, and then emergency inpatient surgery.
  - bifrost 5y ago
    Unfortunately that can vary from hospital to hospital, it also depends on how you're triaged. If you go to SF General, yes, you're in hell. Its an extremely poorly run city hospital that is where most GSW victims go, its busy. If you go to UCSF or CPMC, you'll get world class care.
    - Lammy 5y ago
      It was UCSF
      - bifrost 5y ago
        Interesting, I guess it could be related to CV. Whenever I've had to go there its very speedy.
ben_w 5y ago
Seatbelts and drink driving rules don’t totally eliminate car crashes, but they do reduce their frequency and consequences. Likewise vaccines and masks for COVID. Indeed, if we had 100% vaccine uptake, or 100% sobriety, then all COVID incidents would be vaccinated just as all car crashes would have sober drivers. “Learning to live with COVID” ought to imply “learning to live with masks and vaccines”, not “lose your sense of smell and be ill for an extra week each year”.
- rkk3 5y ago
  With Seat Belts & Driving rules we still have 45,000 Driving related deaths a year in the US. We don't ban automobiles because that number isn't 0. Seatbelts and vaccine's are high impact & low-cost. The same cannot be said about every possible driving or covid restriction. Closing schools has a real cost, sending kid's home from school for a week every time they have a fever has a real cost, requiring kids to wear masks for 8 hours a day has a real cost.
  - jude- 5y ago
    Face masks and vaccines will be the new seatbelts and DUI laws at the rate we're going. I predict that certain activities like flying on an airline, going to public school, or working at a job with close quarters will one day require proof of vaccination and/or masking up to participate. Omicron won't be the last variant, and there is no guarantee that a future variant won't come along that is just as virulent but far more deadly.
    - rkk3 5y ago
      > I predict that certain activities [...] will one day require proof of vaccination and/or masking up to participate I think those policies will slowly go-away in the North East & West Coast as the public and media comes to term with how ineffective they are. 96% of the population of my county (including those not eligible) has had it least 1 covid vaccine dose. At some point you just stop benefiting from continued restrictions. > Omicron won't be the last variant, and there is no guarantee that a future variant won't come along that is just as virulent but far more deadly. And the next terrorist attack could be even more deadly - stay subscribed for our upcoming report on why you should be more afraid. [1] https://www.e7health.com/post/210/the-best-and-worst-states-for-mmr-vaccine-coverage-for-kindergarteners/ https://www.e7health.com/post/210/the-best-and-worst-states-...

awsthro00945 5y ago

This is a false equivalency. Being vaccinated or not is the difference between requiring days/weeks in the hospital or only spending 1-2 days with a mild headache. It's "mildly inconvenienced if you do, damned if you don't". I was at the hospital yesterday (for something unrelated to covid) and there are 0 rooms available. The hallways are still packed with unvaccinated people with covid laying in every open space they can find. Nurses and doctors are still worked past their breaking point. We cannot move on until the thick-skulled members of society realize that their unwillingness to get vaccinated is the number one thing stopping us from moving on.

xeromal 5y ago
It ain't happening though so we need to move on with it. There are too many stubborn people in the United States and probably elsewhere. There are people who would rather die than take the vaccine for whatever ridiculous reason so why are we sitting around waiting for them.
- awsthro00945 5y ago
  I'll say it again: we cannot move on with it until people are vaccinated. It's not a choice. It's not something where we just say "eh well it looks like it won't get better so let's move on". It physically cannot happen.
  - xeromal 5y ago
    So let's assume these people never get vaccinated. We wait forever?
    - awsthro00945 5y ago
      You're still not understanding. We are not "waiting". Waiting implies that we are making some type of conscious choice to put things on hold. But there is no choice. We cannot simply choose to stop waiting. We cannot move on until people are vaccinated. We are blocked, not waiting.
      - xeromal 5y ago
        Lol, you act like this is the first time in humanity's history that we've had a virus. Humanity continues despite it and we will continue despite many people choosing not get easily vaccinated. Eventually people will move on. It's the human condition.
        awsthro00945 5y ago
        Humanity "continuing" or "moving on" naturally due to the passage of time (which will be quite a long time) is a completely different thing than humanity "choosing" to move on. Your original comments imply/ask that humanity collectively "chooses" to move on and stop letting covid affect us, but again, that is simply not possible. It's not something we choose. Individuals can individually choose to pretend covid isn't a thing, but society as a whole cannot simply choose to suddenly restore our medical infrastructure, fix supply chains, grow the labor market, etc. Covid's effect on those things won't magically go away just because someone says "you know what, I'm tired of waiting on covid! I'm going to be normal now!" Adjustments to these will happen over time and humanity may "continue", but when that happens is not a choice we make.
        xeromal 5y ago
        See! We agree.
        UnpossibleJim 5y ago
        I mean, there is a third option that neither of you have presented. We could fix the emergency room and infectious disease ward situation with federal money, and then move on instead of using federal money to prolong lock downs. Addressing infrastructure isn't always popular, or the fastest, but it lasts longer and solves the problem of overcrowding. Yes, it might mean another 9 months to a year of lockdown, but it would be there still when (not if) another disaster occurs. Now, people will get angry at subsidizing private hospitals... but I could go on about how emergency care should be publicly funded anyway. But I digress.
  - loudmax 5y ago
    I think there's a possibility that omicron may mark the end of this pandemic. Anybody who refuses to get vaccinated will very likely get omicron within the next few weeks. So your immune system will either develop antibodies as a result of being vaccinated, or as a result of being infected. Well, there is the third option of dying from covid, but the current evidence seems to indicate that the risk of hospitalization or death from omicron is lower than from covid-19 or delta. To be sure, the descendants of the novel coronavirus that appeared in Wuhan in 2019 will float around the human population indefinitely. Omicron isn't the end of covid, but it could be the end of widespread hospitalizations and deaths. At least until the next crisis comes along.
  - nradov 5y ago
    I encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated, but moving on is an entirely separate issue. We can move on as soon as people stop panicking and decide to accept the risks. In fact that's already happening in some states. Strong circumstantial evidence indicates that another coronavirus HCoV-OC43 caused another worldwide pandemic starting in 1889. It killed a lot of people. There were no vaccines or effective treatments. The same virus is still endemic today; the only reason it doesn't kill many people today is that most of us get infected as youths and the resulting immunity protects us later in life. People moved on. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC544107/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC544107/
    - somewhereoutth 5y ago
      Circumstantial evidence - no direct evidence for HCoV-OC43. In fact it is simply conjecture. It would be instructive to compare the virulence factors encoded in SARS-CoV-2 vs the common cold coronas. People can move on when Covid stops making people seriously ill and compromising our healthcare systems. That is not yet, indeed the way we are going it may be never. Even if Omicron turns out to be 'mild', the next variant may not be.
Lammy 5y ago
> I was at the hospital yesterday (for something unrelated to covid) and there are 0 rooms available. The hallways are still packed with unvaccinated people with covid laying in every open space they can find. Nurses and doctors are still worked past their breaking point. Anecdote: I had to go to the ER in 2017 in San Francisco and my experience was exactly like this back then too. It was a ~4 hour wait in the ER waiting room, then another several hours on a bed in a bright loud busy hallway, then some tests, back to the hallway for a few hours, and then emergency inpatient surgery.
- bifrost 5y ago
  Unfortunately that can vary from hospital to hospital, it also depends on how you're triaged. If you go to SF General, yes, you're in hell. Its an extremely poorly run city hospital that is where most GSW victims go, its busy. If you go to UCSF or CPMC, you'll get world class care.
  - Lammy 5y ago
    It was UCSF
    - bifrost 5y ago
      Interesting, I guess it could be related to CV. Whenever I've had to go there its very speedy.

ben_w 5y ago

Seatbelts and drink driving rules don’t totally eliminate car crashes, but they do reduce their frequency and consequences. Likewise vaccines and masks for COVID. Indeed, if we had 100% vaccine uptake, or 100% sobriety, then all COVID incidents would be vaccinated just as all car crashes would have sober drivers. “Learning to live with COVID” ought to imply “learning to live with masks and vaccines”, not “lose your sense of smell and be ill for an extra week each year”.

rkk3 5y ago
With Seat Belts & Driving rules we still have 45,000 Driving related deaths a year in the US. We don't ban automobiles because that number isn't 0. Seatbelts and vaccine's are high impact & low-cost. The same cannot be said about every possible driving or covid restriction. Closing schools has a real cost, sending kid's home from school for a week every time they have a fever has a real cost, requiring kids to wear masks for 8 hours a day has a real cost.
- jude- 5y ago
  Face masks and vaccines will be the new seatbelts and DUI laws at the rate we're going. I predict that certain activities like flying on an airline, going to public school, or working at a job with close quarters will one day require proof of vaccination and/or masking up to participate. Omicron won't be the last variant, and there is no guarantee that a future variant won't come along that is just as virulent but far more deadly.
  - rkk3 5y ago
    > I predict that certain activities [...] will one day require proof of vaccination and/or masking up to participate I think those policies will slowly go-away in the North East & West Coast as the public and media comes to term with how ineffective they are. 96% of the population of my county (including those not eligible) has had it least 1 covid vaccine dose. At some point you just stop benefiting from continued restrictions. > Omicron won't be the last variant, and there is no guarantee that a future variant won't come along that is just as virulent but far more deadly. And the next terrorist attack could be even more deadly - stay subscribed for our upcoming report on why you should be more afraid. [1] https://www.e7health.com/post/210/the-best-and-worst-states-for-mmr-vaccine-coverage-for-kindergarteners/ https://www.e7health.com/post/210/the-best-and-worst-states-...