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That's the thing. It's a super great place when you are a tourist. I lived there and I saw the bad sides, too. To keep this amazing tidyness, order, extremely

That's the thing. It's a super great place when you are a tourist. I lived there and I saw the bad sides, too. To keep this amazing tidyness, order, extremely high quality of service, people go to their limits - with low pay and low perspectives. We have these "bad" jobs also here, people in those jobs are half-assing them, are rude or just quit. In Japan, at least from my experience, it's the conservative conformity, the anti-individualism, the meat grinding discipline that keep people doing bad jobs at high pace and quality. It's paradox to me why many individualism loving Westerner are going to Japan and are loving it so much. It's a hell for many many people. Many Japanese are racist, sexist, pedophilia was normalized for a very long time. Women are supposed to be housewifes in middle class families, gender is clearly defined. All this is clearly against the western values that i often hear quoted when I hear the same people talking about "China". But Japan seems to be ok for them. Paradox. Just wished people would start thinking about their attitude towards other nations and would develop norms and values that they apply without bias to everyone in order to avoid double standards. Overall, i enjoyed the positive racism in Japan, i was special and I felt it. I experienced racism, too, but i just ignored it. Working in Japan was bad. I also worked in China and felt that the overall package of racism/work/life/society was better for me.

mrkentutbabi 5y ago
Most of the things you mentioned here is why I like Japan more han the Western world. To be fair, Japan isn’t perfect. But a lot of things make sense for us. Are you a westerner? It seems that your way of thinking is just different than ours. We value things differently. For example, have you ever stopped to consider that maybe Japanese woman prefer to be in traditional role? The western world has a lot of problems too. And its a choice that the western world makes. We make our choice according to our values. This is what we prefer. Harmony takes the first place. Harmony over diversity. We like diversity too but harmony always comes first. Harmony first, diversity later, when we need it. I can talk a lot about this.
- ipiz0618 5y ago
  I wanted to comment, but deleted them since you've described my thoughts seeing the parent comment. All I'm going to say is I'm not a "Westerner" so I don't view things in the western perspective.
  - poisonarena 5y ago
    ehhh if you are spending time commenting on hacker news you are a westerner
- 88840-8855 5y ago
  Please don't misunderstand me. Maybe I wasn't precise enough with my thoughts. My main point was: Western people are often pro Japan but anti China. If people would apply the same norms, this wouldn't be possible as there is clearly a double standard. My wish is that Western people (i am one of then) stop apply their world view, norms and values to everyone else on this planet. We believe that so many things that define us are universal and we expect that all people around the world start demanding that and thinking that. I totally understand your pointed that harmony, order, hierarchy works for you and many other countries. I respect that - however I like many Western norms better because they work better for me. It doesn't mean that I want that Japan or China stop behaving the way they behave. I am an advocate for your points.
  - mrkentutbabi 5y ago
    Fair enough. I agree with that. The westerners like to idolize Japan compared to China. I do think sometimes it is unfair. On the other hand. I think Japan is trying to have a good balance between western style democracy with harmony, hence Japan is not as totalitarian as China. Due to bushido culture, Japanese individuals have more shame built-in so it is easier to have a homogeneous society compared to China, to the point that this bushido culture is sometimes frowned by westerners. Each society makes their own laws and values, with its pros and cons, and it is reflected differently.
  - christophilus 5y ago
    I’m one of those people. Japan and China are quite different. I really liked visiting Japan. I really did not enjoy visiting China at all. The two cultures are not as similar as you imply, and the differences matter, at least to me.
    - mrkentutbabi 5y ago
      If you are just visiting, you won’t see much similaries. Japanese also consider non Japanese (or more precisely, non Asian looking), to have different norms than us so we treat them differently. Its an internal barrier that homogeneous society make. We will be polite about it but forever we will consider you a foreigner.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- luma 5y ago
  > maybe Japanese woman prefer to be in traditional role? Great, good for them, everything should work out. It's not the women who want to be subservient to men that I'm worried about, it's the ones who don't. Japanese society doesn't leave a lot of room for them and I don't think that's OK.
  - mrkentutbabi 5y ago
    You can’t please everyone. That’s the whole point of diversity vs harmony. Besides, Japan doesn’t go around killing opeople who don’t adhere to their society. Please think about this hard as lonng, philosophically. To answer your question. Yes we have a lot of single women, doing careers instead of doing families just fine.
    - luma 5y ago
      > Japan doesn’t go around killing opeople who don’t adhere to their society. This is a pretty recent development in Japan's history and the world hasn't forgotten. And for those those single women - why not also married women? How many of them are CEOs? The numbers don't look good for women in Japan when it comes to representation in the higher levels of business https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889158321000423 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915832...
      - Seb-C 5y ago
        > This is a pretty recent development in Japan's history and the world hasn't forgotten. What do you mean? No, it's not. With the exception of WW2, Japan has seen way less conflicts and very little wars in it's history compared to other countries. As for your link, I cannot access the source, but your comment seems biased by the meaning of marriage in the first place. Basically, in Japan getting married means starting a family. If you don't plan to have children, you usually don't get married. Because if you remove the cultural and sentimental value given to the act of being married in the west, there is not much practical advantage or benefit to it in the first place.
- ausbah 5y ago
  >For example, have you ever stopped to consider that maybe Japanese woman prefer to be in traditional role? how can you know this for certain? if Japanese culture writ large is "woman should be homemakers", and most Japanese women become homemakers due to societal pressures of cultural conformity - not ever having the opportunity to freely consider alternatives - is that really a "preference"?
  - mrkentutbabi 5y ago
    I already know the repliers will answer like this. See my other comments.
- dymk 5y ago
  > consider that maybe Japanese woman prefer to be in traditional role? This obviously can’t be true for all Japanese women, so what’s your solution to that? At least in Western countries there is progress being put towards letting women chose if they’d rather be a housewife or an independent person. In Japan there is no such option.
  - mrkentutbabi 5y ago
    Please see my other comments. Diversity vs harmony.
    - dymk 5y ago
      That's not an answer, nor do your other comments answer on the happiness of those who don't want to be a housewife. Reading between the lines, your answer so far is "Sucks to be them".
      - mrkentutbabi 5y ago
        I answered, in Japan there are plenty of single women doing career and they do just fine. Is that not the answer you’re looking for? Do you seem to know what’s best for our country?
CryptoPunk 5y ago
I think you are also not looking at the other side of the coin. People work hard at low-paying jobs in Japan, true. That leads to services being much more affordable, so those low-wages go further. And I know you weren't taking the counter position to this, but there are also many intangible benefits from the values you mentioned being preeminent in Japan. More traditional families means fewer children raised in single-parent households, and thus lower incarceration rates, and fewer anti-social types leaving paths of destruction through society. More aggressive policing means less drug use and no opioid epidemic claiming tens of thousands of lives each year. It also means far less violence on the streets. See how many people are knifed and bottled in the UK for contrast. Not having to worry about random outbursts of terrifying violence makes for a significantly higher quality of life, with people feeling like they have more genuine freedom. More discipline means no riots with hundreds of millions of dollars in businesses going up in flames. And a more conservative culture allows the laws that make all of the above possible to remain in place instead of being swept away in counter-culture social movements that rail against traditional values.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tomp 5y ago
> All this is clearly against the western values that i often hear quoted when I hear the same people talking about "China". But Japan seems to be ok for them. I think you're jumping to conclusions here. Are people in Japan disappeared for criticizing the government? Do they have their organs harvested / altered for believing the wrong religion? I'm OK with a society with very different defaults than my own. In fact, I prefer it - real diversity doesn't come from mixing (like we do in the West - the mix of all colors is shitty brown), it comes from people being strongly different, yet managing to coexist. So Japan is OK. It works as a society. Also for the "different" (well... somewhat - there are problems with overworking, herbivore men, low natality etc. but the West has analogous problems). China doesn't work; people aren't free; it's a repressive regime.
- ipiz0618 5y ago
  Let me add that Japan also doesn't claim an independent country (Taiwan) as their own territory. And they don't raid new agencies for reporting the truth. These are the things people complain about China, not the traditional culture.
  - 88840-8855 5y ago
    Pure whatabouttism. Japan does have a fair share of territory disputes with Korea, Russia, the Philippines, China. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_of_Japan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_of_Japa...
bigthymer 5y ago
> pedophilia was normalized for a very long time Care to explain more to a foreigner? How/when did it stop being normalized?
- Seb-C 5y ago
  I often read people mentioning this ridiculous affirmation about pedophilia in Japan, but I'm still not sure where it comes from.
  - 88840-8855 5y ago
    There’s a street in Tokyo known as "JK alley", or "schoolgirl alley", from the Japanese Joshi Kosei, meaning high school girl. There, teenagers in school uniform sell their time to passers-by, while their minders hover in the background. Men pay to hold hands, go for a walk or have a cup of coffee with the girls. Some even pay to sleep on a girl's lap. This is all legitimate, above board and legal. Japan is also home to 300 "JK cafes", where adult men pay to hang out with underage girls (the age of consent in Japan is 18). Until 2014 child pornography was legal to own in Japan. The law has changed, but the sexualisation of minors continues. "Chaku Ero", which means "erotically clothed" is a kind of soft porn - it doesn’t involve nudity, but it can get very, very close and is often overtly sexual. Questions?
    - fomine3 5y ago
      To be fair "JK" in such shop is mostly (hopefully?) fake.
Klonoar 5y ago
Take a shot every time a Japan-fetishizing article is rocketing to the top of HN.

mrkentutbabi 5y ago

Most of the things you mentioned here is why I like Japan more han the Western world. To be fair, Japan isn’t perfect. But a lot of things make sense for us. Are you a westerner? It seems that your way of thinking is just different than ours. We value things differently. For example, have you ever stopped to consider that maybe Japanese woman prefer to be in traditional role? The western world has a lot of problems too. And its a choice that the western world makes. We make our choice according to our values. This is what we prefer. Harmony takes the first place. Harmony over diversity. We like diversity too but harmony always comes first. Harmony first, diversity later, when we need it. I can talk a lot about this.

ipiz0618 5y ago
I wanted to comment, but deleted them since you've described my thoughts seeing the parent comment. All I'm going to say is I'm not a "Westerner" so I don't view things in the western perspective.
- poisonarena 5y ago
  ehhh if you are spending time commenting on hacker news you are a westerner
88840-8855 5y ago
Please don't misunderstand me. Maybe I wasn't precise enough with my thoughts. My main point was: Western people are often pro Japan but anti China. If people would apply the same norms, this wouldn't be possible as there is clearly a double standard. My wish is that Western people (i am one of then) stop apply their world view, norms and values to everyone else on this planet. We believe that so many things that define us are universal and we expect that all people around the world start demanding that and thinking that. I totally understand your pointed that harmony, order, hierarchy works for you and many other countries. I respect that - however I like many Western norms better because they work better for me. It doesn't mean that I want that Japan or China stop behaving the way they behave. I am an advocate for your points.
- mrkentutbabi 5y ago
  Fair enough. I agree with that. The westerners like to idolize Japan compared to China. I do think sometimes it is unfair. On the other hand. I think Japan is trying to have a good balance between western style democracy with harmony, hence Japan is not as totalitarian as China. Due to bushido culture, Japanese individuals have more shame built-in so it is easier to have a homogeneous society compared to China, to the point that this bushido culture is sometimes frowned by westerners. Each society makes their own laws and values, with its pros and cons, and it is reflected differently.
- christophilus 5y ago
  I’m one of those people. Japan and China are quite different. I really liked visiting Japan. I really did not enjoy visiting China at all. The two cultures are not as similar as you imply, and the differences matter, at least to me.
  - mrkentutbabi 5y ago
    If you are just visiting, you won’t see much similaries. Japanese also consider non Japanese (or more precisely, non Asian looking), to have different norms than us so we treat them differently. Its an internal barrier that homogeneous society make. We will be polite about it but forever we will consider you a foreigner.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
luma 5y ago
> maybe Japanese woman prefer to be in traditional role? Great, good for them, everything should work out. It's not the women who want to be subservient to men that I'm worried about, it's the ones who don't. Japanese society doesn't leave a lot of room for them and I don't think that's OK.
- mrkentutbabi 5y ago
  You can’t please everyone. That’s the whole point of diversity vs harmony. Besides, Japan doesn’t go around killing opeople who don’t adhere to their society. Please think about this hard as lonng, philosophically. To answer your question. Yes we have a lot of single women, doing careers instead of doing families just fine.
  - luma 5y ago
    > Japan doesn’t go around killing opeople who don’t adhere to their society. This is a pretty recent development in Japan's history and the world hasn't forgotten. And for those those single women - why not also married women? How many of them are CEOs? The numbers don't look good for women in Japan when it comes to representation in the higher levels of business https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889158321000423 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915832...
    - Seb-C 5y ago
      > This is a pretty recent development in Japan's history and the world hasn't forgotten. What do you mean? No, it's not. With the exception of WW2, Japan has seen way less conflicts and very little wars in it's history compared to other countries. As for your link, I cannot access the source, but your comment seems biased by the meaning of marriage in the first place. Basically, in Japan getting married means starting a family. If you don't plan to have children, you usually don't get married. Because if you remove the cultural and sentimental value given to the act of being married in the west, there is not much practical advantage or benefit to it in the first place.
ausbah 5y ago
>For example, have you ever stopped to consider that maybe Japanese woman prefer to be in traditional role? how can you know this for certain? if Japanese culture writ large is "woman should be homemakers", and most Japanese women become homemakers due to societal pressures of cultural conformity - not ever having the opportunity to freely consider alternatives - is that really a "preference"?
- mrkentutbabi 5y ago
  I already know the repliers will answer like this. See my other comments.
dymk 5y ago
> consider that maybe Japanese woman prefer to be in traditional role? This obviously can’t be true for all Japanese women, so what’s your solution to that? At least in Western countries there is progress being put towards letting women chose if they’d rather be a housewife or an independent person. In Japan there is no such option.
- mrkentutbabi 5y ago
  Please see my other comments. Diversity vs harmony.
  - dymk 5y ago
    That's not an answer, nor do your other comments answer on the happiness of those who don't want to be a housewife. Reading between the lines, your answer so far is "Sucks to be them".
    - mrkentutbabi 5y ago
      I answered, in Japan there are plenty of single women doing career and they do just fine. Is that not the answer you’re looking for? Do you seem to know what’s best for our country?

CryptoPunk 5y ago

I think you are also not looking at the other side of the coin. People work hard at low-paying jobs in Japan, true. That leads to services being much more affordable, so those low-wages go further. And I know you weren't taking the counter position to this, but there are also many intangible benefits from the values you mentioned being preeminent in Japan. More traditional families means fewer children raised in single-parent households, and thus lower incarceration rates, and fewer anti-social types leaving paths of destruction through society. More aggressive policing means less drug use and no opioid epidemic claiming tens of thousands of lives each year. It also means far less violence on the streets. See how many people are knifed and bottled in the UK for contrast. Not having to worry about random outbursts of terrifying violence makes for a significantly higher quality of life, with people feeling like they have more genuine freedom. More discipline means no riots with hundreds of millions of dollars in businesses going up in flames. And a more conservative culture allows the laws that make all of the above possible to remain in place instead of being swept away in counter-culture social movements that rail against traditional values.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tomp 5y ago

> All this is clearly against the western values that i often hear quoted when I hear the same people talking about "China". But Japan seems to be ok for them. I think you're jumping to conclusions here. Are people in Japan disappeared for criticizing the government? Do they have their organs harvested / altered for believing the wrong religion? I'm OK with a society with very different defaults than my own. In fact, I prefer it - real diversity doesn't come from mixing (like we do in the West - the mix of all colors is shitty brown), it comes from people being strongly different, yet managing to coexist. So Japan is OK. It works as a society. Also for the "different" (well... somewhat - there are problems with overworking, herbivore men, low natality etc. but the West has analogous problems). China doesn't work; people aren't free; it's a repressive regime.

ipiz0618 5y ago
Let me add that Japan also doesn't claim an independent country (Taiwan) as their own territory. And they don't raid new agencies for reporting the truth. These are the things people complain about China, not the traditional culture.
- 88840-8855 5y ago
  Pure whatabouttism. Japan does have a fair share of territory disputes with Korea, Russia, the Philippines, China. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_of_Japan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_of_Japa...

bigthymer 5y ago

> pedophilia was normalized for a very long time Care to explain more to a foreigner? How/when did it stop being normalized?

Seb-C 5y ago
I often read people mentioning this ridiculous affirmation about pedophilia in Japan, but I'm still not sure where it comes from.
- 88840-8855 5y ago
  There’s a street in Tokyo known as "JK alley", or "schoolgirl alley", from the Japanese Joshi Kosei, meaning high school girl. There, teenagers in school uniform sell their time to passers-by, while their minders hover in the background. Men pay to hold hands, go for a walk or have a cup of coffee with the girls. Some even pay to sleep on a girl's lap. This is all legitimate, above board and legal. Japan is also home to 300 "JK cafes", where adult men pay to hang out with underage girls (the age of consent in Japan is 18). Until 2014 child pornography was legal to own in Japan. The law has changed, but the sexualisation of minors continues. "Chaku Ero", which means "erotically clothed" is a kind of soft porn - it doesn’t involve nudity, but it can get very, very close and is often overtly sexual. Questions?
  - fomine3 5y ago
    To be fair "JK" in such shop is mostly (hopefully?) fake.

Klonoar 5y ago

Take a shot every time a Japan-fetishizing article is rocketing to the top of HN.