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Tokyo, and most big Japan cities, are probably the only cities I could visit regularly without getting bored. Whether it's cuisine, the shops, or the people, it

Tokyo, and most big Japan cities, are probably the only cities I could visit regularly without getting bored. Whether it's cuisine, the shops, or the people, it felt like a home away from home. It's surely super crowded in some areas, but you don't have to go there either. There are plenty of areas where you could enjoy a quiet (literally) afternoon sipping a good coffee without having to queue up. Also, it's so damn clean compared to other major cities in the world. Just avoid the train during peak hours, and you'll enjoy every moment staying there.

88840-8855 5y ago
That's the thing. It's a super great place when you are a tourist. I lived there and I saw the bad sides, too. To keep this amazing tidyness, order, extremely high quality of service, people go to their limits - with low pay and low perspectives. We have these "bad" jobs also here, people in those jobs are half-assing them, are rude or just quit. In Japan, at least from my experience, it's the conservative conformity, the anti-individualism, the meat grinding discipline that keep people doing bad jobs at high pace and quality. It's paradox to me why many individualism loving Westerner are going to Japan and are loving it so much. It's a hell for many many people. Many Japanese are racist, sexist, pedophilia was normalized for a very long time. Women are supposed to be housewifes in middle class families, gender is clearly defined. All this is clearly against the western values that i often hear quoted when I hear the same people talking about "China". But Japan seems to be ok for them. Paradox. Just wished people would start thinking about their attitude towards other nations and would develop norms and values that they apply without bias to everyone in order to avoid double standards. Overall, i enjoyed the positive racism in Japan, i was special and I felt it. I experienced racism, too, but i just ignored it. Working in Japan was bad. I also worked in China and felt that the overall package of racism/work/life/society was better for me.
- mrkentutbabi 5y ago
  Most of the things you mentioned here is why I like Japan more han the Western world. To be fair, Japan isn’t perfect. But a lot of things make sense for us. Are you a westerner? It seems that your way of thinking is just different than ours. We value things differently. For example, have you ever stopped to consider that maybe Japanese woman prefer to be in traditional role? The western world has a lot of problems too. And its a choice that the western world makes. We make our choice according to our values. This is what we prefer. Harmony takes the first place. Harmony over diversity. We like diversity too but harmony always comes first. Harmony first, diversity later, when we need it. I can talk a lot about this.
  - ipiz0618 5y ago
    I wanted to comment, but deleted them since you've described my thoughts seeing the parent comment. All I'm going to say is I'm not a "Westerner" so I don't view things in the western perspective.
    - poisonarena 5y ago
      ehhh if you are spending time commenting on hacker news you are a westerner
  - 88840-8855 5y ago
    Please don't misunderstand me. Maybe I wasn't precise enough with my thoughts. My main point was: Western people are often pro Japan but anti China. If people would apply the same norms, this wouldn't be possible as there is clearly a double standard. My wish is that Western people (i am one of then) stop apply their world view, norms and values to everyone else on this planet. We believe that so many things that define us are universal and we expect that all people around the world start demanding that and thinking that. I totally understand your pointed that harmony, order, hierarchy works for you and many other countries. I respect that - however I like many Western norms better because they work better for me. It doesn't mean that I want that Japan or China stop behaving the way they behave. I am an advocate for your points.
    - mrkentutbabi 5y ago
      Fair enough. I agree with that. The westerners like to idolize Japan compared to China. I do think sometimes it is unfair. On the other hand. I think Japan is trying to have a good balance between western style democracy with harmony, hence Japan is not as totalitarian as China. Due to bushido culture, Japanese individuals have more shame built-in so it is easier to have a homogeneous society compared to China, to the point that this bushido culture is sometimes frowned by westerners. Each society makes their own laws and values, with its pros and cons, and it is reflected differently.
    - christophilus 5y ago
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  I think you are also not looking at the other side of the coin. People work hard at low-paying jobs in Japan, true. That leads to services being much more affordable, so those low-wages go further. And I know you weren't taking the counter position to this, but there are also many intangible benefits from the values you mentioned being preeminent in Japan. More traditional families means fewer children raised in single-parent households, and thus lower incarceration rates, and fewer anti-social types leaving paths of destruction through society. More aggressive policing means less drug use and no opioid epidemic claiming tens of thousands of lives each year. It also means far less violence on the streets. See how many people are knifed and bottled in the UK for contrast. Not having to worry about random outbursts of terrifying violence makes for a significantly higher quality of life, with people feeling like they have more genuine freedom. More discipline means no riots with hundreds of millions of dollars in businesses going up in flames. And a more conservative culture allows the laws that make all of the above possible to remain in place instead of being swept away in counter-culture social movements that rail against traditional values.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tomp 5y ago
  > All this is clearly against the western values that i often hear quoted when I hear the same people talking about "China". But Japan seems to be ok for them. I think you're jumping to conclusions here. Are people in Japan disappeared for criticizing the government? Do they have their organs harvested / altered for believing the wrong religion? I'm OK with a society with very different defaults than my own. In fact, I prefer it - real diversity doesn't come from mixing (like we do in the West - the mix of all colors is shitty brown), it comes from people being strongly different, yet managing to coexist. So Japan is OK. It works as a society. Also for the "different" (well... somewhat - there are problems with overworking, herbivore men, low natality etc. but the West has analogous problems). China doesn't work; people aren't free; it's a repressive regime.
  - ipiz0618 5y ago
    Let me add that Japan also doesn't claim an independent country (Taiwan) as their own territory. And they don't raid new agencies for reporting the truth. These are the things people complain about China, not the traditional culture.
    - 88840-8855 5y ago
      Pure whatabouttism. Japan does have a fair share of territory disputes with Korea, Russia, the Philippines, China. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_of_Japan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_of_Japa...
- bigthymer 5y ago
  > pedophilia was normalized for a very long time Care to explain more to a foreigner? How/when did it stop being normalized?
  - Seb-C 5y ago
    I often read people mentioning this ridiculous affirmation about pedophilia in Japan, but I'm still not sure where it comes from.
    - 88840-8855 5y ago
      There’s a street in Tokyo known as "JK alley", or "schoolgirl alley", from the Japanese Joshi Kosei, meaning high school girl. There, teenagers in school uniform sell their time to passers-by, while their minders hover in the background. Men pay to hold hands, go for a walk or have a cup of coffee with the girls. Some even pay to sleep on a girl's lap. This is all legitimate, above board and legal. Japan is also home to 300 "JK cafes", where adult men pay to hang out with underage girls (the age of consent in Japan is 18). Until 2014 child pornography was legal to own in Japan. The law has changed, but the sexualisation of minors continues. "Chaku Ero", which means "erotically clothed" is a kind of soft porn - it doesn’t involve nudity, but it can get very, very close and is often overtly sexual. Questions?
      - fomine3 5y ago
        To be fair "JK" in such shop is mostly (hopefully?) fake.
- Klonoar 5y ago
  Take a shot every time a Japan-fetishizing article is rocketing to the top of HN.

88840-8855 5y ago

That's the thing. It's a super great place when you are a tourist. I lived there and I saw the bad sides, too. To keep this amazing tidyness, order, extremely high quality of service, people go to their limits - with low pay and low perspectives. We have these "bad" jobs also here, people in those jobs are half-assing them, are rude or just quit. In Japan, at least from my experience, it's the conservative conformity, the anti-individualism, the meat grinding discipline that keep people doing bad jobs at high pace and quality. It's paradox to me why many individualism loving Westerner are going to Japan and are loving it so much. It's a hell for many many people. Many Japanese are racist, sexist, pedophilia was normalized for a very long time. Women are supposed to be housewifes in middle class families, gender is clearly defined. All this is clearly against the western values that i often hear quoted when I hear the same people talking about "China". But Japan seems to be ok for them. Paradox. Just wished people would start thinking about their attitude towards other nations and would develop norms and values that they apply without bias to everyone in order to avoid double standards. Overall, i enjoyed the positive racism in Japan, i was special and I felt it. I experienced racism, too, but i just ignored it. Working in Japan was bad. I also worked in China and felt that the overall package of racism/work/life/society was better for me.

mrkentutbabi 5y ago
Most of the things you mentioned here is why I like Japan more han the Western world. To be fair, Japan isn’t perfect. But a lot of things make sense for us. Are you a westerner? It seems that your way of thinking is just different than ours. We value things differently. For example, have you ever stopped to consider that maybe Japanese woman prefer to be in traditional role? The western world has a lot of problems too. And its a choice that the western world makes. We make our choice according to our values. This is what we prefer. Harmony takes the first place. Harmony over diversity. We like diversity too but harmony always comes first. Harmony first, diversity later, when we need it. I can talk a lot about this.
- ipiz0618 5y ago
  I wanted to comment, but deleted them since you've described my thoughts seeing the parent comment. All I'm going to say is I'm not a "Westerner" so I don't view things in the western perspective.
  - poisonarena 5y ago
    ehhh if you are spending time commenting on hacker news you are a westerner
- 88840-8855 5y ago
  Please don't misunderstand me. Maybe I wasn't precise enough with my thoughts. My main point was: Western people are often pro Japan but anti China. If people would apply the same norms, this wouldn't be possible as there is clearly a double standard. My wish is that Western people (i am one of then) stop apply their world view, norms and values to everyone else on this planet. We believe that so many things that define us are universal and we expect that all people around the world start demanding that and thinking that. I totally understand your pointed that harmony, order, hierarchy works for you and many other countries. I respect that - however I like many Western norms better because they work better for me. It doesn't mean that I want that Japan or China stop behaving the way they behave. I am an advocate for your points.
  - mrkentutbabi 5y ago
    Fair enough. I agree with that. The westerners like to idolize Japan compared to China. I do think sometimes it is unfair. On the other hand. I think Japan is trying to have a good balance between western style democracy with harmony, hence Japan is not as totalitarian as China. Due to bushido culture, Japanese individuals have more shame built-in so it is easier to have a homogeneous society compared to China, to the point that this bushido culture is sometimes frowned by westerners. Each society makes their own laws and values, with its pros and cons, and it is reflected differently.
  - christophilus 5y ago
CryptoPunk 5y ago
I think you are also not looking at the other side of the coin. People work hard at low-paying jobs in Japan, true. That leads to services being much more affordable, so those low-wages go further. And I know you weren't taking the counter position to this, but there are also many intangible benefits from the values you mentioned being preeminent in Japan. More traditional families means fewer children raised in single-parent households, and thus lower incarceration rates, and fewer anti-social types leaving paths of destruction through society. More aggressive policing means less drug use and no opioid epidemic claiming tens of thousands of lives each year. It also means far less violence on the streets. See how many people are knifed and bottled in the UK for contrast. Not having to worry about random outbursts of terrifying violence makes for a significantly higher quality of life, with people feeling like they have more genuine freedom. More discipline means no riots with hundreds of millions of dollars in businesses going up in flames. And a more conservative culture allows the laws that make all of the above possible to remain in place instead of being swept away in counter-culture social movements that rail against traditional values.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tomp 5y ago
> All this is clearly against the western values that i often hear quoted when I hear the same people talking about "China". But Japan seems to be ok for them. I think you're jumping to conclusions here. Are people in Japan disappeared for criticizing the government? Do they have their organs harvested / altered for believing the wrong religion? I'm OK with a society with very different defaults than my own. In fact, I prefer it - real diversity doesn't come from mixing (like we do in the West - the mix of all colors is shitty brown), it comes from people being strongly different, yet managing to coexist. So Japan is OK. It works as a society. Also for the "different" (well... somewhat - there are problems with overworking, herbivore men, low natality etc. but the West has analogous problems). China doesn't work; people aren't free; it's a repressive regime.
- ipiz0618 5y ago
  Let me add that Japan also doesn't claim an independent country (Taiwan) as their own territory. And they don't raid new agencies for reporting the truth. These are the things people complain about China, not the traditional culture.
  - 88840-8855 5y ago
    Pure whatabouttism. Japan does have a fair share of territory disputes with Korea, Russia, the Philippines, China. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_of_Japan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_of_Japa...
bigthymer 5y ago
> pedophilia was normalized for a very long time Care to explain more to a foreigner? How/when did it stop being normalized?
- Seb-C 5y ago
  I often read people mentioning this ridiculous affirmation about pedophilia in Japan, but I'm still not sure where it comes from.
  - 88840-8855 5y ago
    There’s a street in Tokyo known as "JK alley", or "schoolgirl alley", from the Japanese Joshi Kosei, meaning high school girl. There, teenagers in school uniform sell their time to passers-by, while their minders hover in the background. Men pay to hold hands, go for a walk or have a cup of coffee with the girls. Some even pay to sleep on a girl's lap. This is all legitimate, above board and legal. Japan is also home to 300 "JK cafes", where adult men pay to hang out with underage girls (the age of consent in Japan is 18). Until 2014 child pornography was legal to own in Japan. The law has changed, but the sexualisation of minors continues. "Chaku Ero", which means "erotically clothed" is a kind of soft porn - it doesn’t involve nudity, but it can get very, very close and is often overtly sexual. Questions?
    - fomine3 5y ago
      To be fair "JK" in such shop is mostly (hopefully?) fake.
Klonoar 5y ago
Take a shot every time a Japan-fetishizing article is rocketing to the top of HN.