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Is Bluetooth holding back Apple's AirPods? We asked the man who made them
- joeman1000 5y agoAnyone else finding the article difficult to read? There are lots of paragraph-long sentences and weird constructions.
- uldo 5y agoSo, now if you explain clickbait title in first paragraph, it is not a clickbite anymore?
- Retric 5y agoLatency wasn’t mentioned but seems to also be an issue.
- seumars 5y agoThe Wireless+ system from AIAIAI is a significant improvement in this space. I've never had the need for a low-latency lossless audio signal but even nowadays bluetooth seems kind of clunky.
- asimpletune 5y ago> Is Bluetooth holding back Apple’s AirPods? Yes
- imglorp 5y agoAs always, if there's an XKCD about it, it's pretty bad. https://xkcd.com/2055/ https://xkcd.com/2055/
- dismalpedigree 5y agoI’m waiting to see the XKCD about there always being an XKCD for every topic on HN.
- herodoturtle 5y agoAnd when you hover your mouse over it there will be praise for dang.
- willis936 5y agoIt's an interesting interview opening by throwing out the second half of the headline and the first half of the headline only being a footnote at the end. It's obvious that Apple has been making moves to their own PAN solution for years (look at the unused UWB stuff). I think it would be cool if HRTF options were exposed to the user. Most people don't care, but I would find it fun to play around with speaker positions and simulated room size.
- paulcole 5y ago> I think it would be cool if HRTF options were exposed to the user This sure sounds like something Apple would do!
- willis936 5y agoThey've been moving more in this direction without advertising it. If you're willing to dive into depths of the settings and shortcut apps you'll find there are lots of new things possible inside the walled garden. It's the natural progression when there is a more open competitor: if you want to keep your walled garden relevant you need to keep the alternatives less alluring.
- jdavis703 5y agoLook at Exposure Notifications. They basically make all the data available that they can, even though it’s unintelligible to average users. The experience only gets crummy when they open a web view to the relevant state-level health authority.
- ericlewis 5y agoNot sure I would categorize UWB as unused since it powers features in AirDrop as well as AirTag.
- willis936 5y agoAfaik the UWB is currently only used for location and not as a data channel.
- nvr219 5y agoThe answer is "yes" because Bluetooth bandwidth is terrible and the protocol itself is not designed for audio. What a terrible headline.
- themitigating 5y agoThat depends on what audio format is used, sbc, aac, aptx, etc There is different quality and latency
- alerighi 5y agoThat is true if we are talking about high end speakers or headphones. I doubt that with AirPods or any other in ear headphones you can hear the difference. These devices are not only built to a cost (even if they are sold at absurd prices, at which you can buy a decent quality wired headphones), but limited by the very small dimensions, that not only have to house the speaker itself but also a battery, the bluetooth receiver, the amplifier, the wireless charge controller for the battery.
- netizen-936824 5y agoHonestly the nitrate from Bluetooth is fine for decent quality audio if you use hardware without a mic and the speakers aren't trash. It works fine for me, I get quality that's world's better than what I've heard from airpods with my own Bluetooth setup
- the_mitsuhiko 5y agoAnyone who ever wanted to listen to music while waiting for a video call to start with airpods on knows that bluetooth is holding any wireless headphones back.
- netizen-936824 5y agoBluetooth works fine for high quality audio in cases where the hardware is good. My audio setup for on the go uses Bluetooth and its world's better than the audio quality from airpods
- Xylakant 5y agoI think the problem that the parent is alluding to is a different one: AFAIR Bluetooth has a high quality profile without microphone support for music and the like, and a low quality profile for headsets with microphone support. Waiting for a call obviously requires using the low quality profile since you intend to use the microphone. (Take this with a grain of salt, my memory on this is fuzzy and I’m not an expert in this matter)
- netizen-936824 5y agoAccording to this source, it sounds like you're right. https://mostechtips.com/how-to-fix-bluetooth-headset-poor-quality-issues-in-windows-10/ https://mostechtips.com/how-to-fix-bluetooth-headset-poor-qu... Personally I never use headsets for calls, but I also never make calls. I only use headphones for music (and would never touch airpods with a 10 foot pole)
- brandall10 5y agoI’m an an ASR-type (sound science) audiophile, primarily headphones but have some decent home systems (buchardt A500 living room, kef lsx bedroom - dsp controlled, anechoalically flat measuring systems w/ lfe tuned to the spaces they’re in). My earphone system when out and about are Shure KSE1200 tuned to Harman IE, electrostats that are easily the best in the world when PEQ’ed. I also use AirPods Pro in a pinch. They’re pretty good - even from an audiophile perspective for those who care about proper engineering - I’d give them an A for their tuning and a B for technicalities… which surely could be improved off Bluetooth. They are decently well reviewed AFA tuning on places like Rtings, Crinacle, and are well regarded for the type of device they are on Head-fi. If you spent any time on ASR you’d know the vast majority of headphones have highly flawed FR, even the very high end. I’d prefer to listen to the lowly AirPods Pro, at least without hefty amounts of PEQ, over most headphones. Fwiw I found head-fi nearly 20 years ago, have been to several CanJams, have run my own meets, and probably owned over $50k in headphone rigs over the years... I know what what the 'best' sounds like. Edit: shame about the downvote, but saying "wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole" is a kneejerk thing to say that has no basis in their actual performance or engineering.
- netizen-936824 5y agoChanging to a different wireless technology (or wired) would not magically make the audio quality of airpods not suck ass. This is absurd
- netizen-936824 5y agoBitrate over Bluetooth is more than sufficient for high quality audio. You won't get good audio out of trash speakers though. Instead of downvoting, how about making an argument for why I'm incorrect
- eropple 5y agoAirPods sound fine. They're not my best headphones, but they sound fine. Audiophiling your way in, barreling in with quality takes like how they "suck ass"--gosh, why would I ever try to talk to you about this? The way you have written throughout this thread is pretty standard "combative audiophile jerk". If you want to be engaged with instead of blown off, perhaps act like you want to be engaged with. I can tell you that I've had conversations with people who sound like the way you're writing and they're never worth the stress or the electrons perturbed. It's almost 2022 and the world is ever more grim. If I'm going to engage with somebody who wants a fight, I prefer it to be about something that matters. Not one's estimation of "trash speakers". So I don't, I downvote, and I move on. I assume that's pretty normal.
- netizen-936824 5y agoAirpod pros sound fine. The originals sound like a tin can Hearing even something like Bose is world's better, it seems to me like people who think original airpod audio is acceptable haven't listened to anything beyond the audio from the built in speakers on their TV Changing the Bluetooth standard would not improve the original airpods which is my entire point. Yes I sound combative, but only because this thread is comparing airpod audio against what? Nothing at all? The bar is apparently super low if someone thinks that original airpods are acceptable, it would make more sense to me to actually set the bar at a place with even decent reproduction across the frequency spectrum
- l33tman 5y agoI wonder how much they care about audio going outwards instead of inwards. When people sit in a silent compartment on a train for example and have apple airpods, the entire compartment hears what they're listening to. I guess this is the price to pay for the surroundings to have an "open" device like that.
- aaaaaaaaaaab 5y agoThey are probably cranking the volume to 100% because they have hearing damage (most likely from cranking the volume to 100% in the past).
- jazzyjackson 5y agoor because they’re trying to drown out the noise of a train with “open” earbuds! Get the man some noise-cancelling closed phones!
- tjpnz 5y agoThe price they pay is having me or the conductor telling them to knock it off. Public transport is uncomfortable enough without having to listen to their shitty music selection.
- gbear605 5y agoI don’t have airpods and don’t want them, but that doesn’t match my experiences being around them. They’re usually quite good at not letting out any sound unless they’re at the maximum volume and you’re listening to really loud music.
- djrogers 5y agoThat hasn’t been my experience at all. I can’t recall ever hearing someone’s music through their AirPods, and I see them everywhere.
- anotheryou 5y agobtw: does apple have especially bad bandwidth for non-apple bluetooth products? Like linux used only half of whats available in headset modes for years (and just very recently fixed it).
- twistedpair 5y agoIIRC, iOS 8 cut the BTLE bitrate in half for using Apple APIs. I worked in the fitness tracker industry at the time, and this is why most major vendors used their own stack, rather than Apple's.
- anotheryou 5y agoApple APIs? I just thought of a generic bluetooth headset. On ios sound seems especially bad for me. My main comparison though is a dongle which is not bluetooth either.
- Neil44 5y agoIf you had to bet on Apple supporting APTX Lossless or inventing their own thing that won’t work with other peoples stuff, you already know what they’re going to do.
- lnxg33k1 5y agoI'm not sure compatibility with other people stuff is something that apple would concern itself about, I think that might be true for anyone else, but apple supporting only apple ecosystem the best way it can, I think according to its history, is the preferred way, and I think next iteration might be like that, first they had to show what potential apple sound would be like, once people know its top of the top, they can restrict it to apple only, personally I've known a lot of apple users, and people with an iPhone or a mac, have also an iPhone, a Mac, and an iPad, and AirPods
- phkahler 5y agoApple could sell some of their devices - like air pods - to people that are not already Apple customers. But that requires compatibility.
- lnxg33k1 5y agoHave you bought airpods without iphone? You can't even see the battery level reliably without third party apps, which don't even consistently work? I'm an android user and had them for a couple of weeks, before returning them, they're already part of a closed ecosystem
- andy_ppp 5y agoNobody uses AirPods with an Android phone do they? I mean why would you, I thought the whole point of the AirPods is the advanced Apple integration?
- niij 5y agoThey work just fine on Android. The important (IMO) features of noise cancellation and detecting when in/out of ear work flawlessly.
- OJFord 5y agoDo they make it easy to use multiple devices (one at a time) or to have one paired with each of two devices? That's my only complaint with my £33 (vs. £109-£239 Apple AirPods) Anker 'Soundcore Life P2' wireless earbuds. Probably would pay a bit more for that to be easier, but not AirPods more, find it baffling how popular they are (or became/continue to be after the arrival of clones anyway) given the price.
- djrogers 5y agoThey largely make it effortless to use with multiple devices. Pair with one of your apple devices, and they’re automatically available on all of your other apple devices. For the most part, they even intelligently auto-switch between them as well. Occasionally you will find an app on a device that claims to be playing audio when it’s not, and your AirPods get hijacked, but it’s easy enough to switch back and forth when that happens.
- reaperducer 5y agoDo they make it easy to use multiple devices (one at a time) or to have one paired with each of two devices? If they're all Apple devices, yes. When I select AirPlay on my iPad, iPhones†, or AppleTV; or Sound on any of my Macs, all of my AirPods† show up and can be selected. † Multiple iPhones and AirPods because I keep work and personal devices distinct.
- hughrr 5y agoYou can pair them with multiple devices. Pick up the phone and play music and it'll switch from your iPad to your phone instantly. It's pretty good. You can also pair multiple sets (temporarily) to your iOS devices to share music for example. I bought mine originally because I was getting fed up of the wires pulling me around when running. I went for AirPods only because I am paying for the integration, QA and ecosystem and I am more than satisfied with what I paid. The other side of the coin is the people who perpetually drop out of voice conferences and make apologies at work who "refuse to drink the apple Kool aid".
- thrashh 5y ago
- carlycue 5y agoPeople say Apple doesn’t innovate anymore under Tim Apple but you see everyone wearing AirPods. Every celebrity, pundit and news anchor have used AirPods during the pandemic.
- meandmycode 5y agoI think it's dangerous to backup innovation the way you have here, the airpods may be innovative, but Apple actually doesn't need to innovate exactly because of the reasons you suggest
- snom380 5y agoWhy doesn’t Apple need to innovate?
- netizen-936824 5y agoBecause they have a reputation for being easy to use and tons of people are trapped in their ecosystem and will continue to buy their overpriced, privacy invading products because they don't want to learn anything else. Plus expensive stuff is a status symbol.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ziml77 5y agoHe says they'd like more bandwidth, but I'm not sure how much is really there. Even if you reduce the overhead by using a non-BT protocol, you're still limited by having to compete with all the other 2.4GHz signals. In your own house that's not bad, but when you're out and about among crowds, there can be enough noise that your signal can't get through well.
- djrogers 5y agoNot everything PAN related has to be 2.4ghz. UWB is promising…
- mikelward 5y agoAirPods don't support LDAC, aptX HD, or aptX LL. According to reviews, LDAC is better than AAC, and is Apache 2.0 licensed.
- netizen-936824 5y agohttps://mostechtips.com/how-to-fix-bluetooth-headset-poor-quality-issues-in-windows-10/ https://mostechtips.com/how-to-fix-bluetooth-headset-poor-qu... Most of the issue comes from the issue mentioned in this tutorial. Headset with mic is limited in a way that just audio out is not
- out_of_protocol 5y agoLDAC: > The decoder design remains proprietary. (c) wiki
- skavi 5y agoI had always assumed Apple was waiting for LE Audio and its LC3 codec.
- karmicthreat 5y agoI would like to see apple just establish a personal area network standard. It would be great if we could have 802.11ax speeds. I'd like to be able to just drop battery powered SSDs in my bag, and access them on my Mac.
- anaganisk 5y agoPlease not another device to charge
- anaganisk 5y agoRethinking about it, apple would probably cut storage in device entirely and sell space pod charged extra to have storage on your phone with BS transfer speed and call it courage. And Android manufacturers will mock them and do the same next iteration.
- natch 5y agoNot fitting in ears is holding them back for a lot of us. For a company interested in accessibility, Apple is super tone deaf on this one.
- jdavis703 5y agoTry the Beats Fit Pro. I hated the open design of Air Pods. I’ve owned two different generations/models and both would always fall out my ears after a few minutes. In a month of use, the Fit Pro has only fell out once on me.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- wintermutestwin 5y agoI have the Airpods pro with the smallest aftermarket ear tips and they never make a proper seal. Apple must think I have freakishly small ear canals. I have looked into custom molded ear tips, but they cost roughly the same as the Airpods! Over the ear headphones are pretty much the only solution for me, but that rules out exercising with them (can't wear a hat or helmet and they fall off when I am benching at the gym).
- sandworm101 5y agoI do chuckle whenever I read about sound quality in wireless headsets and earbuds. So many millions are spent on the connection between phone and earbud, millions just to avoid the inconvenience of a wire. But go to any recording studio or radio station, anywhere that quality actually matters and you won't see anyone debating Bluetooth's bandwidth limitations. If you care about quality your equipment is wired. Want real quality in wireless an earbud? Look for something called an In Ear Monitor (IEM). The abandon data links rely on oldschool radio frequencies. A decent rig will start at about 1000$. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-ear_monitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-ear_monitor
- Nbox9 5y agoIf you go to any server farm, somewhere that network speed and stability actually matters, and you’ll see wired network connections. That doesn’t mean Wi-Fi, LTE, and 5G isn’t good enough for the 99% of devices. There’s a lot of devices (AirPod pro, WH-1000XM4, Quiet Comfort 45, below the $300 price point that offer * Bluetooth * Active Noise Cancellation * Good microphones for calls * Pretty good sound quality These devices offer fantastic convenience, sound pretty good, and are generally affordable. Some of them even have a headphone jack. They compare to a Wi-Fi device to me, the net connection will never be as good as a wired, but the convince factor is “good enough”
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- MomoXenosaga 5y agoMost people don't care about audio quality that much I bet. Audiophiles are a minority.
- indymike 5y agoBluetooth needs to be replaced with: Something allows a device to select what it connects with. I have a laptop, tablet and phone with me most of the time and managing the connection by disconnecting via the laptop/phone/tablet/car/whaever is silly - sometimes you have to kill bluetooth on two or three devices to get the device you want connected. Something that has high quality audio in headset mode. Something that makes data sharing easy. Having 500 different apps that must be the same on both ends of the connection so send a file or three is silly.
- baybal2 5y agoNothing needs to be replaced, it's all in the standard, and Apple just needs to support it. Every dumbphone around 2005 was able to share, and receive files, use HID devices, and put a lot of context to things like remote control info. Apple famously was unable to get proper BT keyboard support for 5 years. Nor still it supports OBEX.
- gjsman-1000 5y agoIt's... pretty terrible standards to be honest. Have you ever tried Bluetooth File Transfer for anything substantial? It's snail speed in the real world. Nothing like AirDrop. It's almost unusable in 2021. A video would take minutes to transfer.
- baybal2 5y agoThe speed of Bluetooth is also a solved issue by an alternative PHY mode. It works, it's a solved issue. And if Apple wanted more bandwidth, at lower power, they had just to put lawyers to destroy UWB patent trolls.
- indymike 5y ago> It works, it's a solved issue. That's nice. It will be nicer when I can pair my phone with my laptop and move big files quickly. Long story short: faster bluetooth file transfer that I can't use is not useful to me.
- windex 5y agoIf you ask me it's the battery and the update process that is holding it back. I swore off of Apple earpods after a firmware updated basically made it useless for me and a whole load of first gen Airpod users. Will not buy anything expensive that I have to trash whole after the battery dies out. Apple never addressed the firmware issue either.