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> It is 100 percent Apple's responsibility to guarantee safe and humane working conditions for all workers at every level in its supply chain. You're advocatin

> It is 100 percent Apple's responsibility to guarantee safe and humane working conditions for all workers at every level in its supply chain. You're advocating a particular ethical framework, but I'm not sure what the justification is. I'd be interested in hearing an argument for why others should adopt it.

worik 5y ago
> You're advocating a particular ethical framework Treating human beings decently is the ethical point here Why should others adopt it? For me it is enough to treat others decently, and by that I can only use my own standards (and I do not have a flush toilet in my house, but there is running water to wash with). But perhaps some people need another reason. Perhaps they should ask their priest? Perhaps they should consider how they wish to be treated themselves, and what goes around comes around. But for me: Just be decent. Remember the Golden Rule: Do not be a dick
- xwolfi 5y ago
  Well if India the country cant even bother to inspect its own factories (in many countries we dont bemoan the american overlord to please stop our people from beating each other: we just inspect ourselves), nothing will change. The problem is Indian or Chinese people valuing each other so low they do that to each other. The american overlord, they tell him yes yes and will print all the pretty pictures and stamped documents he required. So Apple, Foxconn, I dont think we should even care, they dabble in a specific environment: what is India doing for its taxpayers ?
  - worik 5y ago
    > India the country cant even bother to inspect its own factories That is unfair. The USA in the nineteenth century had similar problems, as did England. It is a side effect of rapid economic development, methinks. Time will tell but I think working conditions will improve. They are not that flash in England or the USA either
    - xwolfi 5y ago
      You're right - but it's not really unfair though: I agree with the people who complained in France of these problems 100 years ago too and I think asking what the state is doing is how you get the state to maybe do something. Saying "it's the cost of modernizing" may risk making people believe it's the cost of modernizing, rather than a side effect to quickly correct so you have a rise of the middle class criss-crossing the rise of the factories, rather than the explosion of a slave caste and no one in the domestic market able to buy the output of the production. I think for instance it's not normal India trails China, it's probably explainable by many facts, but it's still nearly as shocking as China trailing France. What is the state doing ffs.
lordnacho 5y ago
I think you can make a case that the responsibility is a metaphorical chain. If you do something, eg make a phone through a complex chain, you need to make sure all the parts of your system are ethical: dangers are minimized, people have sensible working conditions, etc. If you could just stop being responsible as soon as you sign a contract with a subcontractor, it would be very easy to avoid any responsibility. Simply set up everything as another company, or get real subcontractors. Then hide behind "but I told him to treat everyone fairly, see this contract?" In addition the subcontractor could do the same, and nobody would have to check any of the unpleasant stuff. The brand name could just hide behind people who hide behind non-brands (who really shops at Foxxconn?). The fact is in the modern world we have these things called brands that people associate with positive or negative vibes, and we use them because we really don't have enough attention to dig deeply. The brand is an investment into making a positive vibe that hopefully is a true signal. If it's not, people are misled and they end up buying things that they didn't want (though GDP doesn't suffer, that's another story).
vanusa 5y ago
The Golden Rule: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule Combined with Apple's astronomical financial leverage and obvious capability to prevent situations like this from ever occurring again.

worik 5y ago

> You're advocating a particular ethical framework Treating human beings decently is the ethical point here Why should others adopt it? For me it is enough to treat others decently, and by that I can only use my own standards (and I do not have a flush toilet in my house, but there is running water to wash with). But perhaps some people need another reason. Perhaps they should ask their priest? Perhaps they should consider how they wish to be treated themselves, and what goes around comes around. But for me: Just be decent. Remember the Golden Rule: Do not be a dick

xwolfi 5y ago
Well if India the country cant even bother to inspect its own factories (in many countries we dont bemoan the american overlord to please stop our people from beating each other: we just inspect ourselves), nothing will change. The problem is Indian or Chinese people valuing each other so low they do that to each other. The american overlord, they tell him yes yes and will print all the pretty pictures and stamped documents he required. So Apple, Foxconn, I dont think we should even care, they dabble in a specific environment: what is India doing for its taxpayers ?
- worik 5y ago
  > India the country cant even bother to inspect its own factories That is unfair. The USA in the nineteenth century had similar problems, as did England. It is a side effect of rapid economic development, methinks. Time will tell but I think working conditions will improve. They are not that flash in England or the USA either
  - xwolfi 5y ago
    You're right - but it's not really unfair though: I agree with the people who complained in France of these problems 100 years ago too and I think asking what the state is doing is how you get the state to maybe do something. Saying "it's the cost of modernizing" may risk making people believe it's the cost of modernizing, rather than a side effect to quickly correct so you have a rise of the middle class criss-crossing the rise of the factories, rather than the explosion of a slave caste and no one in the domestic market able to buy the output of the production. I think for instance it's not normal India trails China, it's probably explainable by many facts, but it's still nearly as shocking as China trailing France. What is the state doing ffs.

lordnacho 5y ago

I think you can make a case that the responsibility is a metaphorical chain. If you do something, eg make a phone through a complex chain, you need to make sure all the parts of your system are ethical: dangers are minimized, people have sensible working conditions, etc. If you could just stop being responsible as soon as you sign a contract with a subcontractor, it would be very easy to avoid any responsibility. Simply set up everything as another company, or get real subcontractors. Then hide behind "but I told him to treat everyone fairly, see this contract?" In addition the subcontractor could do the same, and nobody would have to check any of the unpleasant stuff. The brand name could just hide behind people who hide behind non-brands (who really shops at Foxxconn?). The fact is in the modern world we have these things called brands that people associate with positive or negative vibes, and we use them because we really don't have enough attention to dig deeply. The brand is an investment into making a positive vibe that hopefully is a true signal. If it's not, people are misled and they end up buying things that they didn't want (though GDP doesn't suffer, that's another story).

vanusa 5y ago

The Golden Rule: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule Combined with Apple's astronomical financial leverage and obvious capability to prevent situations like this from ever occurring again.