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It is 100 percent Apple's responsibility to guarantee safe and humane working conditions for all workers at every level in its supply chain. The idea that this

by vanusa 5y ago

It is 100 percent Apple's responsibility to guarantee safe and humane working conditions for all workers at every level in its supply chain. The idea that this is Foxconn's responsibility, or that Apple is "unable" to proactively monitor what happens at these plants is just BS.

askonomm 5y ago
I don't think that's how the world works. Just because you hate Apple, doesn't make it any different. I have a friend who runs a B2B sales company, by selling things like pencils and cups with logos on them, and he frequently communicates with a wide variety of factories who make those things, and in none of the factories does he have any control over how they do work, or what process they follow. But according to your logic, he should? And not only _should_, but it's his *responsibility*? Or do you just make this argument selectively based on how much money the company has who hires a factory? Because then again, you just hate Apple.
- seoaeu 5y ago
  Apple is the most valuable public company in the world. They have plenty of leverage to force their suppliers to treat workers better. Apple just chooses not to use it to the degree they could. It is laughable to compare the market power of an enormous multinational that frequently buys out factories' entire production capacity, to some random middleman who sells branded cups and pencils.
- vanusa 5y ago
  I don't hate Apple. I just don't see why they shouldn't be held accountable to universally accepted principles of basic human decency.
  - zepto 5y ago
    They are. They are held to higher standards than any of their conpetitors.
    - vanusa 5y ago
      That doesn't mean these standards are sufficient.
    - fivea 5y ago
      > They are. They are held to higher standards than any of their conpetitors. Are they, though? I don't see people claiming that "crowded dorms without flush toilets and food sometimes crawling with worms" is totally fine if the plant makes Samsung or off-brand smartphones. What I'm seeing is a luxury brand on the defensive because their customer base learned that the workers making Apple's luxury products not only have been enduring "crowded dorms without flush toilets and food sometimes crawling with worms" but also tainted food that causes mass health issues. What really boggles the mind is that these sub-human working conditions seem to cause downtime in their plants, which ultimately means it costs them money. But somehow even that is not enough to convince them to treat workers as if they are human beings.
      - zepto 5y ago
        > But somehow even that is not enough to convince them to treat workers as if they are human beings. As has been said many times in this thread. It’s not Apple’s factory. Apple does have much higher standards than this, and has a program of enforcement. The problem is that inspections are often faked.
        fivea 5y ago
        > As has been said many times in this thread. It’s not Apple’s factory. Apple does have much higher standards than this, and has a program of enforcement. That makes no sense. I mean, all you need to do to check if the factory subjects workers to subhuman conditions is send someone from Apple there, look around, and ask a few questions to random employees. And also, are you really trying to argue that Apple is able to verify and guarantee that their luxury consumer electronics products leave the plant meeting tight quality control requirements but somehow it's impossible to ensure that the same employees who met those quality control specs will have worm-free meals?
- quitit 5y ago
  As someone that has worked with Chinese production enough to for it to give me grey (each order in the many-millions of pieces) - the factories do this behind the backs of the company and they're pretty good at evading detection, and yes they know it's wrong. For example any scheduled inspection by Apple would be met with a safe and well running facility - and the moment they leave it all returns back to normal. Apple, like other companies, do random inspections - and that's when you find all of the infractions, but these companies are pretty clued in to when a random inspection might occur since there are telltale signs for that (the factories will also pay off anyone they need in order to get advance notice, e.g drivers, airport staff, hotels you name it.) So it's a constant battle of trying to uncover and rectify the supplier problems. As a simple anecdote for the production staff to have normal working hours we would need to pay them as if they worked an 18 hour day on the requirement that they used the rest of the day for rest and leisure - because otherwise they'd just go to other factories to get in additional hours. The workers are not there for a good time, they're there for the cash. Despite the Apple hate on HN (HN has a big thing for double-standards), Apple do a very good job about this and unlike many companies Apple publish their own dirty laundry in their supplier responsibility report. As someone rightly noted earlier: You hear about the Apple ones, you barely hear anything from non-American companies, but let me assure you - their conditions are far worse and in many cases simply dangerous and not suitable for humans.1 1. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2018/11/23/samsung-electronics-apologises-over-factory-worker-cancer-cases https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2018/11/23/samsung-electro...
  - themaninthedark 5y ago
    If you can not trust your suppliers then why do you continue to do business with them? How many times has Foxconn been in the news for the same sort of issues? Is Apple not aware of that? Is Apple unable to find a supplier who can meet their needs? You say that Apple does a good job, they publish reports and so on. I say bullshit. Apple accepts the status quo and does the bare minimum to make people think they care. Same as Nike and everyone else. Sure, you don't get the same reports from some companies. That just means that they are not trying to blow as much smoke up your ass. If Apple or anyone else was serious about doing something they would. In 2007, the tech press was all aglow with the wonder that Apple could command a production change a month before shipping https://www.cnet.com/news/a-tale-of-apple-the-iphone-and-overseas-manufacturing/ https://www.cnet.com/news/a-tale-of-apple-the-iphone-and-ove... Now poor Apple is helpless and at the mercy of their suppliers? You want to hear a solution? Apple, Microsoft, Samsung and who ever start a joint venture assembly. They choose and hire the management. They have representatives at the factory. The reason they do not is because they do not want to pay what it costs to be done right. If they wanted to, they could. They are smart and powerful people, any excuses are just bullshit.
- 5350-uiop-1130 5y ago
  Doesn't Apple choose these companies based on lowering cost and having leverage over them. So does that leverage and squeezing not ultimately impact these laborer's at the bottom of the food chain Is Apple, like all companies that outsource ultimately aware of this but sees it as necessary to their profit margin, Yes. Would any other company in Apple's position do the same, almost certainly.
CoastalCoder 5y ago
> It is 100 percent Apple's responsibility to guarantee safe and humane working conditions for all workers at every level in its supply chain. You're advocating a particular ethical framework, but I'm not sure what the justification is. I'd be interested in hearing an argument for why others should adopt it.
- worik 5y ago
  > You're advocating a particular ethical framework Treating human beings decently is the ethical point here Why should others adopt it? For me it is enough to treat others decently, and by that I can only use my own standards (and I do not have a flush toilet in my house, but there is running water to wash with). But perhaps some people need another reason. Perhaps they should ask their priest? Perhaps they should consider how they wish to be treated themselves, and what goes around comes around. But for me: Just be decent. Remember the Golden Rule: Do not be a dick
  - xwolfi 5y ago
    Well if India the country cant even bother to inspect its own factories (in many countries we dont bemoan the american overlord to please stop our people from beating each other: we just inspect ourselves), nothing will change. The problem is Indian or Chinese people valuing each other so low they do that to each other. The american overlord, they tell him yes yes and will print all the pretty pictures and stamped documents he required. So Apple, Foxconn, I dont think we should even care, they dabble in a specific environment: what is India doing for its taxpayers ?
    - worik 5y ago
      > India the country cant even bother to inspect its own factories That is unfair. The USA in the nineteenth century had similar problems, as did England. It is a side effect of rapid economic development, methinks. Time will tell but I think working conditions will improve. They are not that flash in England or the USA either
WalterBright 5y ago
What's the role of the government of India in this?
renewiltord 5y ago
It is actually 100 percent the consumer's responsibility to guarantee that they are using only things made under safe conditions. For instance, if the packets you sent over the Internet to post your comment traveled over equipment manufactured in unsafe conditions, you are acting unethically.
- vanusa 5y ago
  The manufacturer has infinitely more visibility into, and leverage over the supply chain than the customer. That's where this attempt to flip responsibility fails.

by vanusa 5y ago

askonomm 5y ago

I don't think that's how the world works. Just because you hate Apple, doesn't make it any different. I have a friend who runs a B2B sales company, by selling things like pencils and cups with logos on them, and he frequently communicates with a wide variety of factories who make those things, and in none of the factories does he have any control over how they do work, or what process they follow. But according to your logic, he should? And not only _should_, but it's his *responsibility*? Or do you just make this argument selectively based on how much money the company has who hires a factory? Because then again, you just hate Apple.

seoaeu 5y ago
Apple is the most valuable public company in the world. They have plenty of leverage to force their suppliers to treat workers better. Apple just chooses not to use it to the degree they could. It is laughable to compare the market power of an enormous multinational that frequently buys out factories' entire production capacity, to some random middleman who sells branded cups and pencils.
vanusa 5y ago
I don't hate Apple. I just don't see why they shouldn't be held accountable to universally accepted principles of basic human decency.
- zepto 5y ago
  They are. They are held to higher standards than any of their conpetitors.
  - vanusa 5y ago
    That doesn't mean these standards are sufficient.
  - fivea 5y ago
    > They are. They are held to higher standards than any of their conpetitors. Are they, though? I don't see people claiming that "crowded dorms without flush toilets and food sometimes crawling with worms" is totally fine if the plant makes Samsung or off-brand smartphones. What I'm seeing is a luxury brand on the defensive because their customer base learned that the workers making Apple's luxury products not only have been enduring "crowded dorms without flush toilets and food sometimes crawling with worms" but also tainted food that causes mass health issues. What really boggles the mind is that these sub-human working conditions seem to cause downtime in their plants, which ultimately means it costs them money. But somehow even that is not enough to convince them to treat workers as if they are human beings.
    - zepto 5y ago
      > But somehow even that is not enough to convince them to treat workers as if they are human beings. As has been said many times in this thread. It’s not Apple’s factory. Apple does have much higher standards than this, and has a program of enforcement. The problem is that inspections are often faked.
      - fivea 5y ago
        > As has been said many times in this thread. It’s not Apple’s factory. Apple does have much higher standards than this, and has a program of enforcement. That makes no sense. I mean, all you need to do to check if the factory subjects workers to subhuman conditions is send someone from Apple there, look around, and ask a few questions to random employees. And also, are you really trying to argue that Apple is able to verify and guarantee that their luxury consumer electronics products leave the plant meeting tight quality control requirements but somehow it's impossible to ensure that the same employees who met those quality control specs will have worm-free meals?
quitit 5y ago
As someone that has worked with Chinese production enough to for it to give me grey (each order in the many-millions of pieces) - the factories do this behind the backs of the company and they're pretty good at evading detection, and yes they know it's wrong. For example any scheduled inspection by Apple would be met with a safe and well running facility - and the moment they leave it all returns back to normal. Apple, like other companies, do random inspections - and that's when you find all of the infractions, but these companies are pretty clued in to when a random inspection might occur since there are telltale signs for that (the factories will also pay off anyone they need in order to get advance notice, e.g drivers, airport staff, hotels you name it.) So it's a constant battle of trying to uncover and rectify the supplier problems. As a simple anecdote for the production staff to have normal working hours we would need to pay them as if they worked an 18 hour day on the requirement that they used the rest of the day for rest and leisure - because otherwise they'd just go to other factories to get in additional hours. The workers are not there for a good time, they're there for the cash. Despite the Apple hate on HN (HN has a big thing for double-standards), Apple do a very good job about this and unlike many companies Apple publish their own dirty laundry in their supplier responsibility report. As someone rightly noted earlier: You hear about the Apple ones, you barely hear anything from non-American companies, but let me assure you - their conditions are far worse and in many cases simply dangerous and not suitable for humans.1 1. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2018/11/23/samsung-electronics-apologises-over-factory-worker-cancer-cases https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2018/11/23/samsung-electro...
- themaninthedark 5y ago
  If you can not trust your suppliers then why do you continue to do business with them? How many times has Foxconn been in the news for the same sort of issues? Is Apple not aware of that? Is Apple unable to find a supplier who can meet their needs? You say that Apple does a good job, they publish reports and so on. I say bullshit. Apple accepts the status quo and does the bare minimum to make people think they care. Same as Nike and everyone else. Sure, you don't get the same reports from some companies. That just means that they are not trying to blow as much smoke up your ass. If Apple or anyone else was serious about doing something they would. In 2007, the tech press was all aglow with the wonder that Apple could command a production change a month before shipping https://www.cnet.com/news/a-tale-of-apple-the-iphone-and-overseas-manufacturing/ https://www.cnet.com/news/a-tale-of-apple-the-iphone-and-ove... Now poor Apple is helpless and at the mercy of their suppliers? You want to hear a solution? Apple, Microsoft, Samsung and who ever start a joint venture assembly. They choose and hire the management. They have representatives at the factory. The reason they do not is because they do not want to pay what it costs to be done right. If they wanted to, they could. They are smart and powerful people, any excuses are just bullshit.
5350-uiop-1130 5y ago
Doesn't Apple choose these companies based on lowering cost and having leverage over them. So does that leverage and squeezing not ultimately impact these laborer's at the bottom of the food chain Is Apple, like all companies that outsource ultimately aware of this but sees it as necessary to their profit margin, Yes. Would any other company in Apple's position do the same, almost certainly.

CoastalCoder 5y ago

> It is 100 percent Apple's responsibility to guarantee safe and humane working conditions for all workers at every level in its supply chain. You're advocating a particular ethical framework, but I'm not sure what the justification is. I'd be interested in hearing an argument for why others should adopt it.

worik 5y ago
> You're advocating a particular ethical framework Treating human beings decently is the ethical point here Why should others adopt it? For me it is enough to treat others decently, and by that I can only use my own standards (and I do not have a flush toilet in my house, but there is running water to wash with). But perhaps some people need another reason. Perhaps they should ask their priest? Perhaps they should consider how they wish to be treated themselves, and what goes around comes around. But for me: Just be decent. Remember the Golden Rule: Do not be a dick
- xwolfi 5y ago
  Well if India the country cant even bother to inspect its own factories (in many countries we dont bemoan the american overlord to please stop our people from beating each other: we just inspect ourselves), nothing will change. The problem is Indian or Chinese people valuing each other so low they do that to each other. The american overlord, they tell him yes yes and will print all the pretty pictures and stamped documents he required. So Apple, Foxconn, I dont think we should even care, they dabble in a specific environment: what is India doing for its taxpayers ?
  - worik 5y ago
    > India the country cant even bother to inspect its own factories That is unfair. The USA in the nineteenth century had similar problems, as did England. It is a side effect of rapid economic development, methinks. Time will tell but I think working conditions will improve. They are not that flash in England or the USA either

WalterBright 5y ago

What's the role of the government of India in this?

renewiltord 5y ago

It is actually 100 percent the consumer's responsibility to guarantee that they are using only things made under safe conditions. For instance, if the packets you sent over the Internet to post your comment traveled over equipment manufactured in unsafe conditions, you are acting unethically.

vanusa 5y ago
The manufacturer has infinitely more visibility into, and leverage over the supply chain than the customer. That's where this attempt to flip responsibility fails.