18 ms·
Tesla recalls nearly half a million Model 3 and Model S cars
- irthomasthomas 5y agoTo put this in perspective, Tesla had sold about 2 million cars total. So Tesla have recalled a quarter of all the cars they have ever sold.
- cassianoleal 5y agoPrevious discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29739029 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29739029
- etaioinshrdlu 5y agoIt doesn't seem like the rear view camera problem is that much of a safety issue, thoughts? The front trunk flying open while driving seems highly undesirable though.
- chrisseaton 5y agoMandatory safety feature not working not a safety issue? How do you work that one out?
- matthewdgreen 5y agoThe recall is not specifically for vehicles with broken backup cameras. It is to deal with cars that have working cameras, but contain a flaw wherein closing the trunk could damage the cable and cause the backup camera to cease working. So TL;DR this should be fixed ASAP (hence the recall) but presumably those cars with currently-working cameras are perfectly safe to drive until then. The Model S hood issue, on the other hand, that’s more serious.
- cududa 5y agoOkay so let’s say someone is at the grocery store, loads up the trunk, while doing so breaks the cable. Tries to backup without the camera/ obscured field of view inherent to the vehicle, hits someone. I get most auto manufacturers calculate risk of death versus recall value, but Tesla doesn’t really have the cash on hand to survive that, and the stock would get obliterated. Why chastise them for being proactive?
- hunterb123 5y agoYeah usually when my camera goes out I just say screw it and back up without looking. Just because it's a safety feature doesn't make it now the operators fault.
- matthewdgreen 5y ago>Why chastise them for being proactive? Who is chastising whom? As an M3 owner I'm thrilled they're being proactive with this recall. I'm also thrilled that this issue is minor and any failure is easily detected. My camera is working fine, and as long as it continues to work fine I'm not at (extra) risk of hitting anyone. Compare this to a critical safety issue like a malfunctioning accelerator cable or a defective hood-latch -- those are things that could pop up at any moment without any warning and kill people. My point above is that safety-critical recalls exist on a spectrum, and this one is about as benign as you get. Whereas the Model S frunk issue is not benign at all.
- dmonitor 5y agofederal regulation requires backup cameras on new vehicles, so that breaking likely to break would be probably be considered a decent sized problem
- m-ee 5y agoRear view cameras are a required safety feature in the US now. As SUVs proliferated and pillars got thicker for crash safety cases of parents running over their toddlers increased.
- coryrc 5y ago
- ralph84 5y agoThose spaces exist but in general people with kids don't want to live there.
- karatinversion 5y agoThose generally aren’t the places where the SUVs are being reversed.
- xiphias2 5y agoYou’re right, but it can still be fixed after the problem happens
- walrus01 5y agoas predicted in the early 1990s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_Jl5WFQkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI_Jl5WFQkA
- darepublic 5y agoPretty sure this is from s8 or higher so more like late nineties? Probably more a parody of trends already existing
- rconti 5y agoNot just SUVs. The visibility out of the rear of my Model 3 is almost as bad as the rear of my BMW X5 SUV. The trunk is so high, you cannot see the headlights of a following passenger car until it's some distance behind. It's not just Tesla, visibility across all cars is getting worse over time, as manufacturers are pushed by crash test standards to improve performance in a crash against another vehicle or stationary object, to the detriment of the ability to avoid a crash (visibility, weight/handling, etc), and at the cost of humans and animals NOT in a big heavy motorized box.
- kube-system 5y agoThe rearview camera is a big issue because it is a requirement under Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards.
- ghaff 5y agoYes. It's a safety issue. But there are also at least tens of millions of cars on the road without backup cameras.
- alamortsubite 5y agoLack of rear visibility without a camera is a much more of an issue on newer cars; older cars, which make up the bulk of those "tens of millions", don't have such a serious problem.
- ghaff 5y agoThat's fair. Even when I shopped for a car over a decade ago, it felt like some of the electronic safety systems were making up for lack of the sort of sightlines you had historically. One of the reasons I ended up going with a pretty old-school SUV design even though I didn't have much of an interest in most of the off-road features. Would probably buy the same vehicle today even though it hasn't been updated a lot.
- alamortsubite 5y agoYes, and of course there are exceptions. I bought a new Toyota 20 years ago that probably had worse rearward visibility than some of the Teslas that are being recalled.
- kube-system 5y agoI'm not (directly) saying it's a safety issue, I'm saying it's a compliance issue. It is clear that it needs fixed because it's clear that this function is required by law.
- actually_a_dog 5y agoI had a hood come open on a car I was driving once. It was definitely some scary shit. Luckily, I was on a long, straight road, and was able to decelerate in a controlled way and pull off the side of the road.
- dboreham 5y agoBritish vehicle?
- HeyLaughingBoy 5y agoIs common on British cars? The only other time I've known it to happen was on a family friend's MG a long time ago
- antattack 5y agoTesla's have limited rear-view visibility due to aerodynamic shape. Not a big problem, but once you get used to backing out while looking at HD screen, lack of it is quite a hindrance.
- bfung 5y agoYep - that’s the first thing I noticed/get used to w/my Tesla Y: rear view mirror looking out back windshield is basically useless and camera is basically necessary while backing up.
- twblalock 5y agoThe Model Y would be pretty much undrivable without a camera. The Model 3 is also pretty bad about rear visibility, but the lack of visibility out the back of the Model Y is shocking.
- walrus01 5y agosee also: Tesla ranks almost dead last on Consumer Reports reliability list https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-last-Consumer-Reports-16632996.php https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-... https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/tesla-model-s-no-longer-recommended-by-consumer-reports.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/tesla-model-s-no-longer-reco... I hope this doesn't come across as excessively smug but I think my life, level of stress and personal finances are measurably improved by owning something that is closer to a $9000 Toyota Corolla and spending money on regular, basic maintenance for it.
- LanceJones 5y agoThey also ranks first in customer satisfaction survey -- 4 years running: https://thedriven.io/2021/11/15/tesla-dominate-top-10-most-satisfying-cars-in-consumer-reports/ https://thedriven.io/2021/11/15/tesla-dominate-top-10-most-s...
- tragictrash 5y ago
- jayd16 5y ago"Loyal" means something different than they simply like their car? Why is it painted as somehow disqualifying?
- tragictrash 5y ago100%. You can like your car, but be aware and open with the flaws. Thats me with my car. The behavior I see surrounding these cars is definately not that. I haven't really seen this with another brand of car, at least to this extent. I see it a lot with iPhones too, but that's not a car. Definitely disqualifies your statements if I know they come from a place of blind infatuation.
- lillecarl 5y ago
- 77pt77 5y agoHow much will the stock rise as a consequence of this?
- slg 5y agoJust a reminder that cars are recalled all the time and the only reason you are seeing this article is because it is Tesla. Any other manufacturer and this would be a non-story especially on HN. Did Ford recalling 185k vehicles a couple days ago make the front page of HN? How about Toyota recalling 200k vehicles also a couple days ago?[2] Maybe Honda recalling 725k vehicles a month ago?[3] EDIT: Lots of people are taking this as a defense of Tesla. That isn't my intention here. I am providing context to this issue. Someone who isn't familiar with the frequency that cars are voluntarily recalled is going to conclude that this is a bigger deal than if viewed in the context of the auto industry as a whole. [1] - https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2021/12/28/ford-recalls-nearly-185-000-f-150-trucks-over-driveshaft-issue/9033644002/ https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2021/1... [2] - https://www.justicepays.com/news/toyota-recalls-over-200000-vehicles-due-to-power-assist-braking-failure https://www.justicepays.com/news/toyota-recalls-over-200000-... [3] - https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38425033/honda-passport-pilot-ridgeline-hood-recall/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38425033/honda-passport-p...
- lillecarl 5y agoThere's more to the story. Ford, Toyota and Honda makes significantly more cars and models than Tesla.
- slg 5y agoI am not trying to start a fight about the quality of Tesla's vehicles compared to other manufacturers. Maybe you are right and Teslas are recalled at a higher frequency. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion either way. I am simply pointing out that a solitary voluntary recall, which is what this article is about, is barely newsworthy and is only being posted/upvoted because it is Tesla.
- lillecarl 5y agoAnd it is upvoted through the roof because it is Tesla. The one car manufacturer valued as high as "all other" (very many) car manufacturers together. Tesla is different, why treat them like everyone else?
- deviantbit 5y ago
- bagels 5y agoBattery car fires are much more likely to make it in to the news than your every day combustion engine vehicle fire which are far more numerous.
- dangrossman 5y agoFor reasons including the ratio of such cars on the road, and the relative ease of putting out an ICE fire versus a multi-day un-extinguishable lithium battery fire. An NHTSA study in 2018 predicts that the rate of such fires will be "somewhat comparable" between vehicle types, it's the duration and severity of the fires that differ.
- electrondood 5y agoIn the Bay Area city where I live, during rush hour I can regularly count 60+ Teslas just walking around my block. I haven't heard of one such incident.
- deviantbit 5y agoYou don't live in Texas heat either.
- abdel_nasser 5y agoi have been an electric vehicle enthusiast and evangelist for more than a decade, well before anyone knew tesla or elon. i know everything about electric cars. i can state with total confidence that the hottest ambient temperature that a tesla might encounter would have precisely zero chance of causing the battery to overheat, let alone overheat to the point of creating thermal runaway.
- beeboop 5y ago
- onphonenow 5y agoThe rear camera MAY fail issue seems pretty benign. When it fails go get it fixed? Or is that no longer a permitted approach. These recalls used to be for things major. Now we are getting a recall over what would be a warranty claim? Can they not just extend warranty coverage in this year to something like 10 years?
- MBCook 5y agoBackup cameras are considered required safety equipment, I assume, since they’ve been required for years. So I don’t think Tesla has any choice in this. The much smaller Model S recall seems like the bigger deal to me. Obviously having the frunk open while you’re driving would be pretty bad.
- wumpus 5y agoThere are two hood latches, like all cars. This recall affects one of them. 0 known incidents. Definitely ought to have a recall.
- onphonenow 5y agoYes, and my side mirror is required safety equipment. When it is knocked off by an idiot, I go get it repaired. The backup cameras are working in these cars they are recalling. If it breaks, go get it fixed under warranty. I've done this with headlight bulbs by the way, and headlights are required safety equipment (potentially as important as the backup camera). I've also had to do this with a windshield wiper, also potentially a key piece of equipment (I had to drive with my head out the window once in snow/rain).
- mdoms 5y agoIf there was a manufacturing defect that caused your mirror to fall off that would also be a recall.
- butwhywhyoh 5y agoI don't think you understand the difference between something failing due to chance, and something failing due to a known manufacturing defect. One of them you get fixed out of your own pocket, the other is a recall. Try to guess which is which.
- nextstep 5y agoThis is about half of all Teslas ever sold in the US https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-us-sales-figures/ https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-us-sales-figures/
- wumpus 5y agoYep. Tesla is a new automaker, and this was the first high-volume model for Tesla. BTW the Takada airbag recall was 100% of Teslas.
- Animats 5y agoSince 1966, hood latches are required to be redundant in US vehicles. That's why, when you pop the hood, it just opens a bit, and then you have to go and release a hook or something from the front. This is because, in 1950s cars, hoods flying up suddenly were a thing. Often followed by a crash. Double latches are required by 47 CFR 571. "A front opening hood which, in any open position, partially or completely obstructs a driver's forward view through the windshield must be provided with a second latch position on the hood latch system or with a second hood latch system. "[1] That's from 1966. In Teslas, the hood covers a storage space, and both both the primary and secondary latch are electrically controlled. It's not some big dumb spring-loaded hook. So it's higher risk for failure. [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.113 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.113
- phkahler 5y ago>> In Teslas, the hood covers a storage space, and both both the primary and secondary latch are electrically controlled. It's not some big dumb spring-loaded hook. So it's higher risk for failure. Yeah, I interviewed at a company that had a frunk module in development. I was initially puzzled as to why they wanted the full ASIL treatment for a basic actuator until it hit me that failure in this case means the hood can open while driving. I know its cool to have auto open and close on everything, but IMHO just leave the 2nd big dumb latch in the front.
- DaveExeter 5y agoASIL = Automotive Safety Integrity Level.
- heyoni 5y agoThank you for that
- Too 5y agoAn additional safety feature of some cars is that the hood is designed to leave a gap underneath when open, allowing you to see through in an emergency.
- userbinator 5y agoFor affected Model 3 owners, Tesla has pledged to install a new cable harness and guide protector free of charge. Wiring harness flexing and chafing is a decades-old well-known problem with well-known solutions. I wonder what the people who designed that area are thinking now, when they were presumably trying to save costs? If Teslas' issues were specific to being EVs or otherwise new functionality specific to its cars, that would seem more understandable; yet these appear to be low-hanging fruit. As the other comment here mentions, other manufacturers have many recalls too, and some of those do look like low-hanging fruit, so I wonder if this is just a norm for the industry as a whole. What I'm trying to say is, why haven't simple things like latches and harness flexing/chafing been solved and perfected by now?
- redtexture 5y agoAttempts to save money in manufacturing undermine solved or perfected approaches.
- theshadowknows 5y agoMy understanding of the automotive industry is that they cut corners everywhere they can because they know it’ll save more money than a lawsuit or recall will cost. Do they do these things and when someone dies or raises a stink only then do they do the recall.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- 404mm 5y agoThis headline makes it sound like “Park your car in the driveway tonight and it will drive itself to its nearest service point and returns back before 5am next day.” kind of event.
- lotsofpulp 5y agoIt is the same phrasing used when any automaker recalls vehicles.
- nope96 5y agoDidn't Musk sell a billion dollars worth of stock a few days before this recall was announced?
- pedalpete 5y ago1) He announced the sales would happen months ago. 2) He had (I believe) stated the sales were to cover tax costs in California 3) He is still net increased his number of shares over the last year due to his compensation package.
- ViViDboarder 5y agoDoes his increase in number of shares actually mean anything? I assume that, like most stock compensation, these shares are newly issued shares, diluting the value of existing shares. That would mean he still has a lower stake, regardless of number of shares, no? I may be misunderstanding something.
- wumpus 5y agoThe dilution happened when the options pool was expanded years ago.
- cududa 5y agoNo, they’re options that were already issued and reserved in a pool. The shares would’ve been released to the market (or whatever mechanism Tesla has in place for unrealized options - many times that means the company buys them) if he didn’t exercise
- ViViDboarder 5y agoAh. Didn’t realize he is being granted options and not shares. That makes sense.
- shostack 5y agoIs it illegal to schedule the transactions months in advance, but then intentionally (but with plausible deniability) slow the release of damaging news like this till after the transaction completed?
- rconti 5y agoI'm confused-- these seem like 2 totally separate issues. The Model 3 issue doesn't even sound like a trunk latching issue, it sounds like a cable-harness-in-a-hinge issue? I actually have a Model 3 that exhibited an annoying rear camera problem (now fixed). It had to "go in" to be fixed 3 times, for complicated reasons, but I found the ultimate fix (an OTA update) to be annoying. I had read on the forums that harness damage was not-uncommon, particularly among people who had installed a power trunk closing retrofit and somehow managed to damage the harness in the process (oops!) Basically: * When the car was new, rear camera did turn on 100% of the time, but failure rate was pretty low. The car had a few minor bugs and the camera seemed to be one. Within a few months most of the bugs were sorted and I had no regular issues with the camera anymore. (way less than 1% failure rate I'd say -- not unlike I've noticed in other cars). * ~ April 2021 the camera started failing to come up with some regularity, immediately after a software update, so I suspected a bug, and just waited for it to get fixed. I think it basically never worked at this point. But it didn't get fixed in the next few updates. (this was when the car was 3 or 4 years old) * A few months later, I took the car in for its final "warranty about to expire" visit. Probably the car's 2nd time at the service center in 3 years? I mentioned the camera along with a few other minor issues. They said they'd replace the harness through the trunklid if they had one, but thought it was out of stock. Sure enough, it was out of stock and they never 'fixed' it. * Mobile service visit, came to my house and replaced the harness in about 20 minutes. But it didn't solve the problem. The tech said likely the FRONT coax harness would need to be replaced, which was much more involved and would require a service center visit. * Scheduled service center visit. * The night before the visit, they called and said "hey, is your camera fixed? We pushed an update". Well, I don't know. Even if it IS working, 12 hours isn't enough to tel whether an intermittent problem is permanently fixed. * Took the car in, they examined everything, said it was fine, and it has been ever since. The car's been relatively trouble free but I want to say this is the second time (possibly for the same camera issue) someone at Tesla pushed a update to the car the night before a service center visit, in the hope it fixed the problem. Why not prioritize these fixes for, I don't know, a few days before the visit, if you want to fix things OTA and limit the load on service centers?
- cududa 5y agoQuite possibly completely unrelated, but I do recall helping some friends analyze build defects on early Model 3’s and making some comment like “boy I hope none of those high voltage lines [in the same harness] are ever active when the lv ones are [due to non-existent shielding and routed to the same MOLEX]”. If memory serves it was power and data over 20 gauge wire intertwined together, unshielded, and pretty much every compute component in a Tesla uses Ethernet as a common bus. Could easily see the back harness being a single package where power for rear defroster, lights, and camera data were housed together. Lights! Camera! …no action
- johnnyApplePRNG 5y agoThis comes just weeks after the CEO sold billions in TSLA stock to "pay taxes" when the market is in the middle of the largest bull run of all time..? Highly suspicious imho. (There's a very good chance that the ROI on any TSLA stock today will exceed the interest owed on 1 years worth of unpaid taxes... assuming you were not about to recall almost every car you've sold in the past year, that is.) I am shocked at how bold this was. Between Dec 21st (the date of TSLA filing this recall) and today, he's sold almost $3 Billion worth. Wow. That's insane.
- cududa 5y agoStock options have an expiration date. A package of grants are expiring. When you exercise the options (buying the shares reserved for you at $x/ price of the stock when you were granted the options) you have to pay taxes on the delta between grant price and current market price. To cover the taxes you need cash, which requires selling shares. Net worth doesn’t mean liquid cash. He lives off loans against stock, of which loans on unrealized gains generally come due when options expire. The IRS would not look kindly on selling shares to pay loans but not taxes. Plus, if the stock tanked between exercise and a year from now, like you suggest, he’d be royally screwed. I don’t see the IRS giving him a year+ to get the cash to pay the bill. I’m far from an Elon apologist but conspiracy theories that have purely legal explanations are weird
- johnnyApplePRNG 5y ago>The IRS would not look kindly on selling shares to pay loans but not taxes. They would not look at it unkindly, either. They would simply charge interest on it like everybody else on this planet who has large loans and does not pay their taxes in full and on time every single year. >I’m far from an Elon apologist but conspiracy theories that have purely legal explanations are weird It's not a conspiracy theory that he sold $3 billion worth of TSLA between filing the recall and notifying the public. It's a public fact, and it's otherwise known as insider trading.
- InTheArena 5y agonot really. He had a ton of stock options that he either had to exercise, or he would loose. He also had tax implications, not to mention people like AOC making him public enemy number one for not paying taxes that are actually not legal taxes.
- kordlessagain 5y agoMeh. Honda just did a hood latch recall on Pilots.
- mehrdada 5y agoI had the Model S frunk open in front of me while driving. Lucky to be alive. On my last Model S (2018 model year), I was driving up on a bridge and it suddenly opened and blocked my forward visibility, with a trailer on my right. The vehicle was looked at by service a number of times because I got intermittent “Front trunk hood status unknown” (which I had also seen on a couple loaner Model S’s) and service despite taking it in a number of times and looking at it presumably a few days each time was not able to reliably reproduce and investigate the root cause. After the incident, they looked at the car for a couple weeks and. To their credit, they were quite good at resolving the issue and when I asked they <strike>lemoned</strike>“Goodwill bought back” the vehicle and I ordered another Model S. Their diagnosis, I was told, was that the emergency escape button inside the frunk had some sort of glitch and activated and was causing the frunk to open at times, but this must have been part of the problem. Glad to see this issue addressed at large, as it was super scary, but it took 2+ years since I first reported my own frunk problems till now that the recall is being issued.
- asddubs 5y agoyikes. so it was an electronic failure, where the computer decided that the hood goes up now, not a mechanical one?
- mehrdada 5y agoThat was my understanding. Ironically the "emergency escape button" inside the frunk is a dubious regulatory requirement for such a small space but could cause a major problem.