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Apologies, both personal and corporate, are taken very seriously in Japanese culture[1]. They're a way of preserving honor that dates back to the samurai era. Y

by imiric 5y ago

Apologies, both personal and corporate, are taken very seriously in Japanese culture[1]. They're a way of preserving honor that dates back to the samurai era. You can see this in the custom of bowing, where the length and extension of a bow reflects the gravity of the situation. The act of seppuku can be considered an extreme version of this. I'm not a Japanophile, but find their culture fascinating. [1]: https://theculturetrip.com/asia/japan/articles/sumimasen-behind-japans-apology-culture/ https://theculturetrip.com/asia/japan/articles/sumimasen-beh...

xvilka 5y ago
On the other hand, the failure is generally frowned upon and avoided at all costs.
sandworm101 5y ago
Because Japanese culture accepts failure. Admission and acceptance preserves honour. Western culture, particularly in north America, punishes the admission of failure. Everyone is supposed to fight things out to the last, to never give an inch. Even when companies settle cases they rarely admit wrongdoing publicly. Notice that this Japanese company talks about re-educating/training personnel. An American company would be expected to sack all involved and sue the consulting firm.
- pezezin 5y ago
  Maybe it depends on the region/prefecture, but after 3 years working in Japan, my experience is quite different. The project suffers massive delays because nobody wants to make any decision and take any responsibility. My former boss (Japanese, but had worked for many years in the US), told me that Japanese managers don't want to take risks, because if something fails they need to apologize in public, and that is pretty much social suicide there.
- halpert 5y ago
  Weren’t Japanese soldiers in WWII instructed to kill themselves instead of being captured to “preserve honor?” That doesn’t sound like the acceptance of failure to me.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    That sounds like saying that the ongoing US war crimes at Guantanamo are important for understanding Google app engine service contracts. Just because Japan is far away doesn't mean that everything that happened there happened in the same place at the same time.
  - numpad0 5y ago
    There were misunderstandings that there will not be good chances of dying painlessly if one was to be captured alive, based on Japanese norms and very scarce knowledge on American cultures. Better to pull the pin while you can than having to beg them for days to stab just an inch towards arteries, that's what "preserve honor" ultimately means.
  - AdrianB1 5y ago
    When you learned about that, you did not read the entire paragraph: being captured was traditionally considered a dishonor (for the past 500 years, at least), it is a huge failure for a soldier (or samurai). Ritual suicide is the solution to that dishonor. There are degrees of failure, some is considered to be beyond fixing.
  - moogleii 5y ago
    Citizens were also instructed to kill themselves.
  - argiopetech 5y ago
    It's far too much to go in to in the HN comments section from a phone, but removing the key military leadership who pushed this mindset, a new government structure, and the rejuvenation of business under e.g., Deming caused a significant shift in Japanese culture following the war. Edit: This is not necessarily in support of the grandparent comment; rather, a caution against judging a culture based on historical anecdotes.
  - hollander 5y ago
    But at least you won't end up in court.
  - lvass 5y ago
- tiahura 5y ago
  Hmm. I suppose it’s subjective, but isn’t America’s acceptance of failure often cited as an element in the success of its entrepreneurial spirit? And, wrt to samurais and failure, seppuku?
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    America accepts failed ventures, not individual mistakes. A business that collapses is a learning experience. But, while they are operating, a business must never admit to wrongdoing impacting customers or the public. There is great respect for failed business judgment, but very little for weakness.
  - adventured 5y ago
    > isn’t America’s acceptance of failure often cited as an element in the success of its entrepreneurial spirit Yes, the parent comment is entirely wrong. The US culture is hyper accepting of failure compared to most other prominent cultures, including Japanese culture (which in fact does not tolerate failure very well at all).
  - maneesh 5y ago
    Yes, I think op is conflating the terms of apology and failure in this instance.
EvanAnderson 5y ago
Japanese firms are interesting to work with. I enjoyed the culture, personally. I have two anecdotes. The old white box PC shop I worked for, back in the 90s, quoted PCs to a Japanese-owned auto parts manufacturer. The Customer accepted the quote, paid an up-front deposit, and requested the PCs not be built and delivered until some construction at their site was completed in a few months. In the meantime component pricing went down and speeds/feeds went up. When the PCs were built we ended up being forced to source higher clock speed CPUs and larger hard disk drives. It took some cajoling to get the Customer to take delivery. They felt they should pay more for the upgrades. (We were actually making more money on the deal even with the upgraded components anyway!) My current company once pitched a support agreement to a Japanese-owned firm. We offered a discount for annual commitment versus month-to-month. I'd copy/pasted the month-to-month terms for the annual but forgot to alter the minimum notice period for ending the annual option. Both month-to-month and annual indicated a notice period of 30 days rather than the intended 180 days for the annual option. The Customer's contact questioned the notice period being the same. He asked why they wouldn't opt for annual commitment, get the discounted rate, and also have the 30 day notice period. My partner, who had worked with Japanese firms in the past, responded: "We know you wouldn't choose the annual option if your intention was not to work with us for at least a year." The Customer agreed and we ended up getting the gig on an annual basis.
- masklinn 5y ago
  > The Customer's contact questioned the notice period being the same. He asked why they wouldn't opt for annual commitment, get the discounted rate, and also have the 30 day notice period. My partner, who had worked with Japanese firms in the past, responded: "We know you wouldn't choose the annual option if your intention was not to work with us for at least a year." The Customer agreed and we ended up getting the gig on an annual basis. That's a really cute answer by your partner, I like it a lot, even ignoring that it manages to save face while paying serious respect to the purported customer.
  - EvanAnderson 5y ago
    Writing the parent comment gave me, if nothing else, an excuse to publicly document that exchange. I was, and still am, in awe of his ability to think on his feet and come up with such a wholly appropriate response.
moogleii 5y ago
Unfortunately it can also be taken a bit too far. It’s not uncommon to essentially buy yourself out of punitive criminal justice via an apology and some cash (jidan/gomen money). It’s not totally unlike a settlement here, except it’s much more acceptable as an opening move (as a victim, you should seriously consider it). It seems to be inline with the goal of preserving social harmony and making “it” go away asap.

by imiric 5y ago

xvilka 5y ago

On the other hand, the failure is generally frowned upon and avoided at all costs.

sandworm101 5y ago

Because Japanese culture accepts failure. Admission and acceptance preserves honour. Western culture, particularly in north America, punishes the admission of failure. Everyone is supposed to fight things out to the last, to never give an inch. Even when companies settle cases they rarely admit wrongdoing publicly. Notice that this Japanese company talks about re-educating/training personnel. An American company would be expected to sack all involved and sue the consulting firm.

pezezin 5y ago
Maybe it depends on the region/prefecture, but after 3 years working in Japan, my experience is quite different. The project suffers massive delays because nobody wants to make any decision and take any responsibility. My former boss (Japanese, but had worked for many years in the US), told me that Japanese managers don't want to take risks, because if something fails they need to apologize in public, and that is pretty much social suicide there.
halpert 5y ago
Weren’t Japanese soldiers in WWII instructed to kill themselves instead of being captured to “preserve honor?” That doesn’t sound like the acceptance of failure to me.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  That sounds like saying that the ongoing US war crimes at Guantanamo are important for understanding Google app engine service contracts. Just because Japan is far away doesn't mean that everything that happened there happened in the same place at the same time.
- numpad0 5y ago
  There were misunderstandings that there will not be good chances of dying painlessly if one was to be captured alive, based on Japanese norms and very scarce knowledge on American cultures. Better to pull the pin while you can than having to beg them for days to stab just an inch towards arteries, that's what "preserve honor" ultimately means.
- AdrianB1 5y ago
  When you learned about that, you did not read the entire paragraph: being captured was traditionally considered a dishonor (for the past 500 years, at least), it is a huge failure for a soldier (or samurai). Ritual suicide is the solution to that dishonor. There are degrees of failure, some is considered to be beyond fixing.
- moogleii 5y ago
  Citizens were also instructed to kill themselves.
- argiopetech 5y ago
  It's far too much to go in to in the HN comments section from a phone, but removing the key military leadership who pushed this mindset, a new government structure, and the rejuvenation of business under e.g., Deming caused a significant shift in Japanese culture following the war. Edit: This is not necessarily in support of the grandparent comment; rather, a caution against judging a culture based on historical anecdotes.
- hollander 5y ago
  But at least you won't end up in court.
- lvass 5y ago
tiahura 5y ago
Hmm. I suppose it’s subjective, but isn’t America’s acceptance of failure often cited as an element in the success of its entrepreneurial spirit? And, wrt to samurais and failure, seppuku?
- sandworm101 5y ago
  America accepts failed ventures, not individual mistakes. A business that collapses is a learning experience. But, while they are operating, a business must never admit to wrongdoing impacting customers or the public. There is great respect for failed business judgment, but very little for weakness.
- adventured 5y ago
  > isn’t America’s acceptance of failure often cited as an element in the success of its entrepreneurial spirit Yes, the parent comment is entirely wrong. The US culture is hyper accepting of failure compared to most other prominent cultures, including Japanese culture (which in fact does not tolerate failure very well at all).
- maneesh 5y ago
  Yes, I think op is conflating the terms of apology and failure in this instance.

EvanAnderson 5y ago

Japanese firms are interesting to work with. I enjoyed the culture, personally. I have two anecdotes. The old white box PC shop I worked for, back in the 90s, quoted PCs to a Japanese-owned auto parts manufacturer. The Customer accepted the quote, paid an up-front deposit, and requested the PCs not be built and delivered until some construction at their site was completed in a few months. In the meantime component pricing went down and speeds/feeds went up. When the PCs were built we ended up being forced to source higher clock speed CPUs and larger hard disk drives. It took some cajoling to get the Customer to take delivery. They felt they should pay more for the upgrades. (We were actually making more money on the deal even with the upgraded components anyway!) My current company once pitched a support agreement to a Japanese-owned firm. We offered a discount for annual commitment versus month-to-month. I'd copy/pasted the month-to-month terms for the annual but forgot to alter the minimum notice period for ending the annual option. Both month-to-month and annual indicated a notice period of 30 days rather than the intended 180 days for the annual option. The Customer's contact questioned the notice period being the same. He asked why they wouldn't opt for annual commitment, get the discounted rate, and also have the 30 day notice period. My partner, who had worked with Japanese firms in the past, responded: "We know you wouldn't choose the annual option if your intention was not to work with us for at least a year." The Customer agreed and we ended up getting the gig on an annual basis.

masklinn 5y ago
> The Customer's contact questioned the notice period being the same. He asked why they wouldn't opt for annual commitment, get the discounted rate, and also have the 30 day notice period. My partner, who had worked with Japanese firms in the past, responded: "We know you wouldn't choose the annual option if your intention was not to work with us for at least a year." The Customer agreed and we ended up getting the gig on an annual basis. That's a really cute answer by your partner, I like it a lot, even ignoring that it manages to save face while paying serious respect to the purported customer.
- EvanAnderson 5y ago
  Writing the parent comment gave me, if nothing else, an excuse to publicly document that exchange. I was, and still am, in awe of his ability to think on his feet and come up with such a wholly appropriate response.

moogleii 5y ago

Unfortunately it can also be taken a bit too far. It’s not uncommon to essentially buy yourself out of punitive criminal justice via an apology and some cash (jidan/gomen money). It’s not totally unlike a settlement here, except it’s much more acceptable as an opening move (as a victim, you should seriously consider it). It seems to be inline with the goal of preserving social harmony and making “it” go away asap.