5 ms·

In California, <50% of 8th graders meet the state's standard for 8th grade literacy.[0] Many schools in Califonia use an unproven/inferior method/curriculum fo

In California, <50% of 8th graders meet the state's standard for 8th grade literacy.[0] Many schools in Califonia use an unproven/inferior method/curriculum for teaching literacy, based on the work of F&P.[1] [0] https://caaspp-elpac.cde.ca.gov/caaspp/DashViewReport?ps=true&lstTestYear=2019&lstTestType=B&lstGroup=1&lstSubGroup=1&lstSchoolType=A&lstGrade=13&lstCounty=00&lstDistrict=00000&lstSchool=0000000 https://caaspp-elpac.cde.ca.gov/caaspp/DashViewReport?ps=tru... [1] https://www.apmreports.org/story/2021/11/19/fountas-pinnell-disproven-childrens-reading-theory https://www.apmreports.org/story/2021/11/19/fountas-pinnell-...

mumblemumble 5y ago
It's hard to know what to make of that figure without knowing how the standard is set, though. I have no idea how California does it, but it's not uncommon to define the grade levels as the median score kids in that grade get on the test. And 50% of kids scoring below the median would only be a worrisome result in the Lake Wobegon school system.
- rahimnathwani 5y ago
  ELPAC test scores have 4 bands, including 'meet expectations' and 'exceed expectations'. The % of kids who are expected to (at least) 'meet expectations' is, by definition, 100%. But the actual rate is less than half that. These tests aren't difficult by design. They're not graded on a curve, forcing the pass rate to be ~50%. Please take a look at sample tests and judge for yourself: https://www.compton.k12.ca.us/media/5234/elpac_grades-6-8_practice-test.pdf https://www.compton.k12.ca.us/media/5234/elpac_grades-6-8_pr...
mistrial9 5y ago
many people here have not gone to public school with people who do not learn to read and write at basic levels. Please let me inform you, its not due to "unfair testing" -- lack of adult literacy is very real.
- mistrial9 5y ago
  USA related information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29734146 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29734146
- rahimnathwani 5y ago
  50% of kids meet the standard. Of those, some meet the standard only due to the efforts of their parents: either direct (teaching their kids after school) or indirect (paying for after-school tuition). So the % of kids that schools are successfully teaching to read is maybe 30% or 40%.
Muromec 5y ago
If less than half of 8th grades can't read, should it maybe, just maybe mean it's time for spelling reform? It's baffling, that you need a method and something special for such a basic thing as reading.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  If you mean "just maybe" literally, then sure, it's worth thinking about. Figuring out the sounds is a small part and we definitely shouldn't assume it's the bottleneck.
  - Muromec 5y ago
    Well, that's literally how children read -- they figure out the sounds from letters and pronounce syllable by syllable, then repeat the whole word (if then don't forget something in the middle of it). Naturally, if there is more than one way to read everything, it kinda doesn't work.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      But that's well before sixth grade level. It's possible it is a huge factor, but it's also possible it's less than 5% of the problem.
      - Muromec 5y ago
        I would expect that to accumulate over years, because less proficiency in early age would mean less exposure to texts of increased difficulty. And if reading is not fun, cool and neither is it easy -- why even do that. Add absence of reading parents and general socioeconomical situation and it makes a disaster.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        It accumulates over time but so does every other factor.
- 5y ago
jollybean 5y ago
Folks - it is not the schools - it is the kids and the situations they are raised in. The schools are nearly identical everywhere. Even crap schools, if you put those teachers in an upper middle class setting, they would shine. And the most talented teachers in the nation, put into one of those violent inner city schools - would not magically make the the kids pass math. The kids grow up with single/no parents or one/both parents in jail, no stable job or income, total lack of support at home - or worse, parents that actively call them 'stupid' or tell them they're worthless, zero educated role models, by age 8 idolizing street tough guys, by age 11 wanting to join them, by grade 10 hardly ever showing up, 5 years behind, could care less, getting into fights, peers mocking them if they do well, haven't been out of the neighbourhood in a decade, no serious extra curricular activities etc.. The 2018 OECD/PISA scoring really highlights a lot of these issues. I was driving through Detroit one night 'for fun' with my work mates to give them a taste of 'some parts of America' - it was 12:45am and on the street corner at the gas station was a child, on his bike, just sitting there waiting for something. Think of much you can surmise from just that one little thing: a 7 year old, up at 1 am, out in the neighbourhood, hanging out on a Tuesday night. There is no way that story is good, and there are probably 100 things that are bad. Just from that one glimpse you can probably estimate that kid might not be likely to finish school. Most schools and teachers are good, esp. the one's that have the tenacity to teach in the inner city. We need decent jobs, stable families, boring nonviolent neighbourhoods, kids who can be free to be 'into' school stuff and the chess club, basic healthcare - i.e. your normal, middle-class semi-aspirational upbringing. If we can do that, grades will go way up to the normal middle class level.
- DarylZero 5y ago
  Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTobHOyLvRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTobHOyLvRU

mumblemumble 5y ago

It's hard to know what to make of that figure without knowing how the standard is set, though. I have no idea how California does it, but it's not uncommon to define the grade levels as the median score kids in that grade get on the test. And 50% of kids scoring below the median would only be a worrisome result in the Lake Wobegon school system.

rahimnathwani 5y ago
ELPAC test scores have 4 bands, including 'meet expectations' and 'exceed expectations'. The % of kids who are expected to (at least) 'meet expectations' is, by definition, 100%. But the actual rate is less than half that. These tests aren't difficult by design. They're not graded on a curve, forcing the pass rate to be ~50%. Please take a look at sample tests and judge for yourself: https://www.compton.k12.ca.us/media/5234/elpac_grades-6-8_practice-test.pdf https://www.compton.k12.ca.us/media/5234/elpac_grades-6-8_pr...

mistrial9 5y ago

many people here have not gone to public school with people who do not learn to read and write at basic levels. Please let me inform you, its not due to "unfair testing" -- lack of adult literacy is very real.

mistrial9 5y ago
USA related information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29734146 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29734146
rahimnathwani 5y ago
50% of kids meet the standard. Of those, some meet the standard only due to the efforts of their parents: either direct (teaching their kids after school) or indirect (paying for after-school tuition). So the % of kids that schools are successfully teaching to read is maybe 30% or 40%.

Muromec 5y ago

If less than half of 8th grades can't read, should it maybe, just maybe mean it's time for spelling reform? It's baffling, that you need a method and something special for such a basic thing as reading.

Dylan16807 5y ago
If you mean "just maybe" literally, then sure, it's worth thinking about. Figuring out the sounds is a small part and we definitely shouldn't assume it's the bottleneck.
- Muromec 5y ago
  Well, that's literally how children read -- they figure out the sounds from letters and pronounce syllable by syllable, then repeat the whole word (if then don't forget something in the middle of it). Naturally, if there is more than one way to read everything, it kinda doesn't work.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    But that's well before sixth grade level. It's possible it is a huge factor, but it's also possible it's less than 5% of the problem.
    - Muromec 5y ago
      I would expect that to accumulate over years, because less proficiency in early age would mean less exposure to texts of increased difficulty. And if reading is not fun, cool and neither is it easy -- why even do that. Add absence of reading parents and general socioeconomical situation and it makes a disaster.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        It accumulates over time but so does every other factor.
5y ago

jollybean 5y ago

Folks - it is not the schools - it is the kids and the situations they are raised in. The schools are nearly identical everywhere. Even crap schools, if you put those teachers in an upper middle class setting, they would shine. And the most talented teachers in the nation, put into one of those violent inner city schools - would not magically make the the kids pass math. The kids grow up with single/no parents or one/both parents in jail, no stable job or income, total lack of support at home - or worse, parents that actively call them 'stupid' or tell them they're worthless, zero educated role models, by age 8 idolizing street tough guys, by age 11 wanting to join them, by grade 10 hardly ever showing up, 5 years behind, could care less, getting into fights, peers mocking them if they do well, haven't been out of the neighbourhood in a decade, no serious extra curricular activities etc.. The 2018 OECD/PISA scoring really highlights a lot of these issues. I was driving through Detroit one night 'for fun' with my work mates to give them a taste of 'some parts of America' - it was 12:45am and on the street corner at the gas station was a child, on his bike, just sitting there waiting for something. Think of much you can surmise from just that one little thing: a 7 year old, up at 1 am, out in the neighbourhood, hanging out on a Tuesday night. There is no way that story is good, and there are probably 100 things that are bad. Just from that one glimpse you can probably estimate that kid might not be likely to finish school. Most schools and teachers are good, esp. the one's that have the tenacity to teach in the inner city. We need decent jobs, stable families, boring nonviolent neighbourhoods, kids who can be free to be 'into' school stuff and the chess club, basic healthcare - i.e. your normal, middle-class semi-aspirational upbringing. If we can do that, grades will go way up to the normal middle class level.

DarylZero 5y ago
Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTobHOyLvRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTobHOyLvRU