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This "playing golf with government minister" should be called out for what it is: a probable or possible bribe. It won't be money in a brown paper bag but the r

This "playing golf with government minister" should be called out for what it is: a probable or possible bribe. It won't be money in a brown paper bag but the result will be the same. It's endemic. We like to think bribery and corruption happens to other countries but there's plenty of it in the UK: it's just higher up the totem pole and largely accepted.

wholinator2 5y ago
Agreed, though I've always had this thought: How do we know it's not money in a brown paper bag/briefcase. I mean, could they not transfer physical money as easily as they transfer words and secret deals. Golf courses are huge, golf carts can have large compartments and be loaded up directly from a car. I know the thought is, "well why would they do that, surely there's an easier alternative", but my point is that it's not would, it's could.
- wholinator2 5y ago
  And I guess my counterpoint is that could is a very very large potentially unusably large category of possible actions, and would is a much more tightly controlled set of realized actions we believe might happen again. But then would has the potential of misdirection. Your believed set of would's might be entirely separate from the realized would's of the individual. Could is wider but has less room for interpretation or propagandizing. Exactly my point in the above post: why wouldn't they be able to transfer money. My set of would's include those deliberate obvious actions, especially if all kinds of other things happen on golf courses. Anyways, I'm rambling, have a nice day. :)
- toyg 5y ago
  > How do we know it's not money in a brown paper bag/briefcase One of the problems is that some of these checks can only be performed much later. The most common currency of choice, for modern bribes, is the promise of a fat gig in the private sector when the political career ends. As the public demands younger and younger political classes, with lower and lower salaries, while maintaining an appetite for career-ending scandals and relatively short terms in office, it's inevitable that individuals will tend towards ensuring their future survival. Such promises need no paper trail, are trivial to keep, and are effectively invisible for years. When they're realized, it's typically too late to do anything about the original source of corruption, and the new guys in power have no incentive to cut that income source for them; in fact, they now know it works and are more likely to tap it for themselves.
  - Sebb767 5y ago
    > As the public demands younger and younger political classes, with lower and lower salaries Looking into the US senate, I fail to see that trend. In the last presidential election, both candidates were older than my grandparents. Even in my country, seeing a really young person in a political position is very rare. They exist (if you define "young" as under 40), but they are rare. I don't think age worries are a factor at all.
    - mbg721 5y ago
      In the US there's a huge disconnect between national and local political positions; the national politicians are largely 80 years old and have enough muscle from their party structure and the media to be essentially scandal-proof. The voters don't like that but can't really fix it; local politicians, who are younger, see the big-time corruption in Washington and assume that's how things get done, and all of a sudden you have things like a majority of Cincinnati city council being investigated by the FBI.
    - Bud 5y ago
      You're not paying attention to the salaries part, though. Look at the pay for members of the House and Senate, in real dollars, over the last 50 years. Also pay attention to how much stupid noise there is about how members of Congress are supposedly overpaid. The pay for all US Senators combined (under $18M) is less than half of what LeBron James makes (over $41M) in salary alone in a year.
      - b3morales 5y ago
        That's not a very informative comparison. LeBron James is a outlier's outlier in a sector that already has exceptional pay. Senators' salaries would more usefully be compared to the (upper) middle-class white-collar workforce that they would most likely occupy if they weren't in office.
        hiptobecubic 5y ago
        I don't see how you can compare being a senator to being a middle manager at some bank. The problem is that the banker faces huge consequences if they do something stupid to earn a little money by abusing their position and the upside isn't even that big. By comparison, senators have the opportunity to earn literally millions by doing things that aren't even technically illegal, like being given a wink-and-nod promise of a revolving door-style highly paid position in industry, "insider" trading that for some reason just doesn't count, etc.
mcdonje 5y ago
Same thing in the US. I always laugh whenever I see a list of corrupt countries and the US isn't near the top. Codifying bribery into law as lobbying and superpacs doesn't make it not bribery.
- jrgaston 5y ago
  Spot on: "Codifying bribery into law as lobbying and superpacs doesn't make it not bribery"
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  That's because the US has a low amount of corruption on the positions that face the public. It's also because most of those lists are ordered by a "perception index", that is the kind of bullshit that increases if your government does an awareness program and if corruption fighting gets on the news.
  - mcdonje 5y ago
    So, ironically, corruption reduction efforts can raise a country's rank on such lists.
    - marcosdumay 5y ago
      Exactly. Not only "can", but will on almost every case. Some times I wonder if it's on purpose.
- signatoremo 5y ago
  Ha, do you have any experience doing business with those countries top of the list to say so?

wholinator2 5y ago

Agreed, though I've always had this thought: How do we know it's not money in a brown paper bag/briefcase. I mean, could they not transfer physical money as easily as they transfer words and secret deals. Golf courses are huge, golf carts can have large compartments and be loaded up directly from a car. I know the thought is, "well why would they do that, surely there's an easier alternative", but my point is that it's not would, it's could.

wholinator2 5y ago
And I guess my counterpoint is that could is a very very large potentially unusably large category of possible actions, and would is a much more tightly controlled set of realized actions we believe might happen again. But then would has the potential of misdirection. Your believed set of would's might be entirely separate from the realized would's of the individual. Could is wider but has less room for interpretation or propagandizing. Exactly my point in the above post: why wouldn't they be able to transfer money. My set of would's include those deliberate obvious actions, especially if all kinds of other things happen on golf courses. Anyways, I'm rambling, have a nice day. :)
toyg 5y ago
> How do we know it's not money in a brown paper bag/briefcase One of the problems is that some of these checks can only be performed much later. The most common currency of choice, for modern bribes, is the promise of a fat gig in the private sector when the political career ends. As the public demands younger and younger political classes, with lower and lower salaries, while maintaining an appetite for career-ending scandals and relatively short terms in office, it's inevitable that individuals will tend towards ensuring their future survival. Such promises need no paper trail, are trivial to keep, and are effectively invisible for years. When they're realized, it's typically too late to do anything about the original source of corruption, and the new guys in power have no incentive to cut that income source for them; in fact, they now know it works and are more likely to tap it for themselves.
- Sebb767 5y ago
  > As the public demands younger and younger political classes, with lower and lower salaries Looking into the US senate, I fail to see that trend. In the last presidential election, both candidates were older than my grandparents. Even in my country, seeing a really young person in a political position is very rare. They exist (if you define "young" as under 40), but they are rare. I don't think age worries are a factor at all.
  - mbg721 5y ago
    In the US there's a huge disconnect between national and local political positions; the national politicians are largely 80 years old and have enough muscle from their party structure and the media to be essentially scandal-proof. The voters don't like that but can't really fix it; local politicians, who are younger, see the big-time corruption in Washington and assume that's how things get done, and all of a sudden you have things like a majority of Cincinnati city council being investigated by the FBI.
  - Bud 5y ago
    You're not paying attention to the salaries part, though. Look at the pay for members of the House and Senate, in real dollars, over the last 50 years. Also pay attention to how much stupid noise there is about how members of Congress are supposedly overpaid. The pay for all US Senators combined (under $18M) is less than half of what LeBron James makes (over $41M) in salary alone in a year.
    - b3morales 5y ago
      That's not a very informative comparison. LeBron James is a outlier's outlier in a sector that already has exceptional pay. Senators' salaries would more usefully be compared to the (upper) middle-class white-collar workforce that they would most likely occupy if they weren't in office.
      - hiptobecubic 5y ago
        I don't see how you can compare being a senator to being a middle manager at some bank. The problem is that the banker faces huge consequences if they do something stupid to earn a little money by abusing their position and the upside isn't even that big. By comparison, senators have the opportunity to earn literally millions by doing things that aren't even technically illegal, like being given a wink-and-nod promise of a revolving door-style highly paid position in industry, "insider" trading that for some reason just doesn't count, etc.

mcdonje 5y ago

Same thing in the US. I always laugh whenever I see a list of corrupt countries and the US isn't near the top. Codifying bribery into law as lobbying and superpacs doesn't make it not bribery.

jrgaston 5y ago
Spot on: "Codifying bribery into law as lobbying and superpacs doesn't make it not bribery"
marcosdumay 5y ago
That's because the US has a low amount of corruption on the positions that face the public. It's also because most of those lists are ordered by a "perception index", that is the kind of bullshit that increases if your government does an awareness program and if corruption fighting gets on the news.
- mcdonje 5y ago
  So, ironically, corruption reduction efforts can raise a country's rank on such lists.
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    Exactly. Not only "can", but will on almost every case. Some times I wonder if it's on purpose.
signatoremo 5y ago
Ha, do you have any experience doing business with those countries top of the list to say so?