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> Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity A SIM is not a embodiment of an iPhone’s identity. Maybe it was in the 90s, but today it’s so mu

by Nbox9 5y ago

> Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity A SIM is not a embodiment of an iPhone’s identity. Maybe it was in the 90s, but today it’s so much more. The SIM is more like your iPhone’s credentials for accessing one network. You can change SIMs, change your access token for one network, but you are making no bigger impact on your phone’s “identity” than if you were to change Wi-Fi networks. List of Identity related things that change when you change your SIM * Network Access Layer data associated with the cellular networks * Phone Number List of Identity relates things that do not change when changing your SIM * All data stored on the phone (messages, photos, apps) * Two Factor Authentication apps like Duo, PingID, Authy * ICloud Accounts * Stored passwords * Login tokens for various apps like email, social media, etc * Browser Cookies * Applet Wallet Data

tablespoon 5y ago
>> Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity > The SIM is more like your iPhone’s credentials for accessing one network. That's what I meant. Anyone with any familiarity with SIM cards knows it's no personality chip that brings everything over with it, and if it were such a thing it would probably be pretty annoying.
- Nbox9 5y ago
  Actually, the SIM card use to be a “personality chip” in the 1990s. It stored your phone number and your contacts. There’s a scene in The Wire where a drug dealer confuses the police by changing the sim card of his phone when talking about criminal activity, which evades electronic surveillance (changing the phone’s ID on the network) and physical surveillance (sims are very small and concealable). I was specifically calling out how the use of a cell has grown in the last 30 years specifically as it related to identity. I’ve spent a lot of time engineering login pages and thinking about questions of user identity.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    But the phone hardware also has an IMEI, which it also tells the network: https://weartotrack.com/imei-number-blocked/ https://weartotrack.com/imei-number-blocked/ So it might be you're basing your knowledge from some fictional show where the writers got it wrong.
    - takeda 5y ago
      I don't know the story, but I'm wondering if IMEI wasn't introduced because of that. If SIM offered an identity in the network, why would phone need to have an unique number?
      - djur 5y ago
        IMEI identifies the device, SIM identifies the subscriber. IMEI is used to block stolen phones, but it's also how phones are locked into specific carriers (which used to be a much bigger part of the business model, "$0 phones" and all).
        makapuf 5y ago
        Imei can be changed on some phones, and are not secure. The sim card needs to be logged to from the phone (usin PIN for uset-level login), contains non readable secrets and provides a completely separate execution environment with its own memory and cpu.
        takeda 5y ago
        What I was saying is that it doesn't look like IMEI is essential part of the protocol and perhaps was added because of that and similar cases? Without any identifiable ID of the phone, you wouldn't need a burner phone, just a burner SIM.
      - dkonofalski 5y ago
        SIM stands for "Subscriber Identity Module". IMEI stands for "International Mobile Equipment Identity". One identifies the account/person connecting (your plan, usage, etc.) while the other identifies the phone (and its capabilities on the network).
deep-root 5y ago
They were correct. They're saying your phone service identity (I am X number on Y network plan). Not your personal identity (pictures of your kids and passwords). Today if your phone fails, you can pop a sim in another phone and regain your phone service identity within minutes. No SIM, it could take days or even weeks.
- takeda 5y ago
  Yes, I don't understand how this could be welcomed by anyone else than Apple. It gives flashback from time when Verizon had CDMA network and their devices did not have SIM.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    What is the similarity to Verizon CDMA non SIM days if the phone is not locked to a carrier? Connecting to ATT/Verizon/T-Mobile/Vodafone should be as easy as choosing a Wifi Network.
    - deep-root 5y ago
      In the CDMA days your non-carrier locked phone had trouble handling travel across the US, and forget about service in another country. Carriers (Verizon and Sprint?) tried to improve it, but never really worked and the expense was high.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        ATT/Tmobile users did not have a problem with service in another country, as they were not CDMA.
        saratogacx 5y ago
        CDMA phones (early 2000's) had to be manually configured to attach to a network, I did support for Verizon at the time and I talked many people through the steps of reprogramming their phones onto the network. If you wanted to use your CDMA phone on another network you had to program it and re-program back when you were done. The steps were not public nor easy to navigate as it was not intended to be a user serviceable feature. Compared to AT&T's "take the card out and put it in the new phone" reprogramming it was night and day. You can say that eSIM is easier than the old CDMA days but it still isn't as easy as SIM swapping.

by Nbox9 5y ago

tablespoon 5y ago

>> Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity > The SIM is more like your iPhone’s credentials for accessing one network. That's what I meant. Anyone with any familiarity with SIM cards knows it's no personality chip that brings everything over with it, and if it were such a thing it would probably be pretty annoying.

Nbox9 5y ago
Actually, the SIM card use to be a “personality chip” in the 1990s. It stored your phone number and your contacts. There’s a scene in The Wire where a drug dealer confuses the police by changing the sim card of his phone when talking about criminal activity, which evades electronic surveillance (changing the phone’s ID on the network) and physical surveillance (sims are very small and concealable). I was specifically calling out how the use of a cell has grown in the last 30 years specifically as it related to identity. I’ve spent a lot of time engineering login pages and thinking about questions of user identity.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  But the phone hardware also has an IMEI, which it also tells the network: https://weartotrack.com/imei-number-blocked/ https://weartotrack.com/imei-number-blocked/ So it might be you're basing your knowledge from some fictional show where the writers got it wrong.
  - takeda 5y ago
    I don't know the story, but I'm wondering if IMEI wasn't introduced because of that. If SIM offered an identity in the network, why would phone need to have an unique number?
    - djur 5y ago
      IMEI identifies the device, SIM identifies the subscriber. IMEI is used to block stolen phones, but it's also how phones are locked into specific carriers (which used to be a much bigger part of the business model, "$0 phones" and all).
      - makapuf 5y ago
        Imei can be changed on some phones, and are not secure. The sim card needs to be logged to from the phone (usin PIN for uset-level login), contains non readable secrets and provides a completely separate execution environment with its own memory and cpu.
      - takeda 5y ago
        What I was saying is that it doesn't look like IMEI is essential part of the protocol and perhaps was added because of that and similar cases? Without any identifiable ID of the phone, you wouldn't need a burner phone, just a burner SIM.
    - dkonofalski 5y ago
      SIM stands for "Subscriber Identity Module". IMEI stands for "International Mobile Equipment Identity". One identifies the account/person connecting (your plan, usage, etc.) while the other identifies the phone (and its capabilities on the network).

deep-root 5y ago

They were correct. They're saying your phone service identity (I am X number on Y network plan). Not your personal identity (pictures of your kids and passwords). Today if your phone fails, you can pop a sim in another phone and regain your phone service identity within minutes. No SIM, it could take days or even weeks.

takeda 5y ago
Yes, I don't understand how this could be welcomed by anyone else than Apple. It gives flashback from time when Verizon had CDMA network and their devices did not have SIM.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  What is the similarity to Verizon CDMA non SIM days if the phone is not locked to a carrier? Connecting to ATT/Verizon/T-Mobile/Vodafone should be as easy as choosing a Wifi Network.
  - deep-root 5y ago
    In the CDMA days your non-carrier locked phone had trouble handling travel across the US, and forget about service in another country. Carriers (Verizon and Sprint?) tried to improve it, but never really worked and the expense was high.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      ATT/Tmobile users did not have a problem with service in another country, as they were not CDMA.
      - saratogacx 5y ago
        CDMA phones (early 2000's) had to be manually configured to attach to a network, I did support for Verizon at the time and I talked many people through the steps of reprogramming their phones onto the network. If you wanted to use your CDMA phone on another network you had to program it and re-program back when you were done. The steps were not public nor easy to navigate as it was not intended to be a user serviceable feature. Compared to AT&T's "take the card out and put it in the new phone" reprogramming it was night and day. You can say that eSIM is easier than the old CDMA days but it still isn't as easy as SIM swapping.