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> Microsoft Bing uses OSM in several regions, and is slowly moving from it’s traditional providers to OSM globally. They provide machine-learning (ML) datasets

> Microsoft Bing uses OSM in several regions, and is slowly moving from it’s traditional providers to OSM globally. They provide machine-learning (ML) datasets that they have computed from areal imagery. They employ nobody in the OSM community. Microsoft Bing made its aerial imagery available for OSM editing, this is often very very very useful for mapping (speaking from own experience as an OSM mapper). See https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/maps/product/imagery-service-editor-app-apis-terms https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/maps/product/imagery-service... > The rights that you have under this agreement are limited solely to aerial imagery use in a non-commercial online editor application of OpenStreetMap maps (an "Application") see also extra info in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps#Terms.2C_Clarifications https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps#Terms.2C_Clari... It is an interesting case as cost of that is basically nothing to Microsoft, this action has a very clear benefits to them, has negative influence on their competition like Google, has basically no negative side effects to OSM community (unlike company hiring people) and provides service that would cost OSM community ridiculous amounts of money if we would need to buy it (it would be impossible for us to buy worldwide aerial imagery of such quality). It is weird to not mention it in that article.

londons_explore 5y ago
> costs basically nothing to Microsoft I wouldn't be surprised if this agreement was a big headache when Microsoft is licensing imagery from various satellite imagery providers.
- cbozeman 5y ago
  Well we have SpaceX now... and Microsoft is a trillion dollar company. Launch some satellites.
  - delusional 5y ago
    The highest quality aerial photography of my country (Denmark) is taken from planes, not satellites.
    - hyperionplays 5y ago
      Same for Australia. NearMap is mostly plane (and hot air balloon) images for the high quality stuff.
      - astrange 5y ago
        Bing actually has the highest quality aerial images of Australia in some places, licensed from Vexcel. Meanwhile nobody has a good 3D map of Brisbane - Apple has none, Google’s is labeled (c) 2021 but is inexplicably actually from 2010 or so.
    - frosted-flakes 5y ago
      "Satellite" imagery on Google Maps is a misnomer, and when it launched there was a big disagreement on the name that got brought all the way to Larry and Sergey. At the end of the meeting one of them said "call it Bird Mode", but the devs ignored that and stuck with "satellite" because they though bird mode was silly. More details in this Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/btaylor/status/1099370126678253569 https://twitter.com/btaylor/status/1099370126678253569
      - jhgb 5y ago
        If you look at for example mapy.cz, they call it "Aerial map".
  - ReleaseCandidat 5y ago
    They owned Vexcel for some years: In 2006, Vexcel Imaging was acquired by Microsoft Corporation and contributed as a subsidiary to the success of Microsoft’s Bing program by pushing the envelope of photogrammetric hardware and software technology with innovations that underpinned the Bing Maps web service and mapping platform. https://www.vexcel-imaging.com/company/ https://www.vexcel-imaging.com/company/
- matkoniecz 5y ago
  EDIT: I rephrased to > cost of that is basically nothing to Microsoft --------------- I am unaware about internal Microsoft proceedings, but it seems possible. Though I guess that given Microsoft scale and benefits from that it should be possible to describe it as "costs basically nothing to Microsoft" It is not low sum, I would be bankrupted either by lawyer consultations on this topic and by extra server traffic if I would be paying for that, but on Microsoft scale it is probably nothing.
onphonenow 5y ago
The article is very weird. If the author doesn't understand the value of the aerial imagery (global) they have obviously never tried to license this stuff globally. That alone should give Microsoft "platinum" status. Secondly, you need users to justify investments in these products. Microsoft brings users. Now businesses and others start paying attention, updating their details etc.
- zinekeller 5y ago
  Genuinely it's really a pain. You're not just dealing with intellectual property issues, you're literally brushing with militaries (and different cartographic laws) in the process of licensing high-resolution (those which allows you to see streets and buildings) images. The fact that they were able to do license this, even if it's still restricted for commercial use (seriously, it's really not that easy) speaks volumes to Microsoft's plans on relying on OSM. (Note that cartographic restrictions are now slowly loosening up especially in the US, but we can't say that for sure in other countries like India and China.) By the way, that's also why Microsoft shies away from cartographic products except when maps are absolutely needed, they have encountered situations (for example, time zone maps and flag emojis) that Microsoft doesn't want to get involved in, and so avoids those if it's possible.
  - matkoniecz 5y ago
    It also probably had interesting internal politics. OSM data can be also used by competitors and it kind of admits that Bing Maps right now cannot compete with Google Maps at all. To the point that improving open data available to all is better. I really need to link https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/ > most of the companies spending big money to develop open source software are doing it because it’s a good business strategy for them, not because they suddenly stopped believing in capitalism and fell in love with freedom-as-in-speech. and explains why it makes sense. See also a bit broader https://www.gwern.net/Complement https://www.gwern.net/Complement
- CjMalone 5y ago
  As is prefixed in the post, this was originally a private response to Daniel Aleksandersen's post about Google Maps [1]. It was a quick email, not a fully thought out article. I'm not a writer, and defiantly not an author. I understand the value that Microsoft brings via it's imagery, Map Builder and it's users. OpenStreetMap wouldn't be in the position it is today without Microsoft, and the other commercial interests involved in OSM. I want there involvement, I welcome it, and I'm grateful for it. I am a little soured by the value that I put into society (through contributing thousands of hours to OSM [2], and my day job), and the value I get back. This email wasn't meant to discus that, but I guess it underlays everything I ever do and say. [1] https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/maps-public-service.html https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/maps-public-service.html [2] https://www.hdyc.neis-one.org/?CjMalone https://www.hdyc.neis-one.org/?CjMalone
gnufx 5y ago
Not news to Mateusz, but Microsoft also provide some "streetside" imagery, and there are other imagery providers, like ESRI (lower resolution, but typically more up-to-date and better aligned where I've used it).

londons_explore 5y ago

> costs basically nothing to Microsoft I wouldn't be surprised if this agreement was a big headache when Microsoft is licensing imagery from various satellite imagery providers.

cbozeman 5y ago
Well we have SpaceX now... and Microsoft is a trillion dollar company. Launch some satellites.
- delusional 5y ago
  The highest quality aerial photography of my country (Denmark) is taken from planes, not satellites.
  - hyperionplays 5y ago
    Same for Australia. NearMap is mostly plane (and hot air balloon) images for the high quality stuff.
    - astrange 5y ago
      Bing actually has the highest quality aerial images of Australia in some places, licensed from Vexcel. Meanwhile nobody has a good 3D map of Brisbane - Apple has none, Google’s is labeled (c) 2021 but is inexplicably actually from 2010 or so.
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    "Satellite" imagery on Google Maps is a misnomer, and when it launched there was a big disagreement on the name that got brought all the way to Larry and Sergey. At the end of the meeting one of them said "call it Bird Mode", but the devs ignored that and stuck with "satellite" because they though bird mode was silly. More details in this Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/btaylor/status/1099370126678253569 https://twitter.com/btaylor/status/1099370126678253569
    - jhgb 5y ago
      If you look at for example mapy.cz, they call it "Aerial map".
- ReleaseCandidat 5y ago
  They owned Vexcel for some years: In 2006, Vexcel Imaging was acquired by Microsoft Corporation and contributed as a subsidiary to the success of Microsoft’s Bing program by pushing the envelope of photogrammetric hardware and software technology with innovations that underpinned the Bing Maps web service and mapping platform. https://www.vexcel-imaging.com/company/ https://www.vexcel-imaging.com/company/
matkoniecz 5y ago
EDIT: I rephrased to > cost of that is basically nothing to Microsoft --------------- I am unaware about internal Microsoft proceedings, but it seems possible. Though I guess that given Microsoft scale and benefits from that it should be possible to describe it as "costs basically nothing to Microsoft" It is not low sum, I would be bankrupted either by lawyer consultations on this topic and by extra server traffic if I would be paying for that, but on Microsoft scale it is probably nothing.

onphonenow 5y ago

The article is very weird. If the author doesn't understand the value of the aerial imagery (global) they have obviously never tried to license this stuff globally. That alone should give Microsoft "platinum" status. Secondly, you need users to justify investments in these products. Microsoft brings users. Now businesses and others start paying attention, updating their details etc.

zinekeller 5y ago
Genuinely it's really a pain. You're not just dealing with intellectual property issues, you're literally brushing with militaries (and different cartographic laws) in the process of licensing high-resolution (those which allows you to see streets and buildings) images. The fact that they were able to do license this, even if it's still restricted for commercial use (seriously, it's really not that easy) speaks volumes to Microsoft's plans on relying on OSM. (Note that cartographic restrictions are now slowly loosening up especially in the US, but we can't say that for sure in other countries like India and China.) By the way, that's also why Microsoft shies away from cartographic products except when maps are absolutely needed, they have encountered situations (for example, time zone maps and flag emojis) that Microsoft doesn't want to get involved in, and so avoids those if it's possible.
- matkoniecz 5y ago
  It also probably had interesting internal politics. OSM data can be also used by competitors and it kind of admits that Bing Maps right now cannot compete with Google Maps at all. To the point that improving open data available to all is better. I really need to link https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/ > most of the companies spending big money to develop open source software are doing it because it’s a good business strategy for them, not because they suddenly stopped believing in capitalism and fell in love with freedom-as-in-speech. and explains why it makes sense. See also a bit broader https://www.gwern.net/Complement https://www.gwern.net/Complement
CjMalone 5y ago
As is prefixed in the post, this was originally a private response to Daniel Aleksandersen's post about Google Maps [1]. It was a quick email, not a fully thought out article. I'm not a writer, and defiantly not an author. I understand the value that Microsoft brings via it's imagery, Map Builder and it's users. OpenStreetMap wouldn't be in the position it is today without Microsoft, and the other commercial interests involved in OSM. I want there involvement, I welcome it, and I'm grateful for it. I am a little soured by the value that I put into society (through contributing thousands of hours to OSM [2], and my day job), and the value I get back. This email wasn't meant to discus that, but I guess it underlays everything I ever do and say. [1] https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/maps-public-service.html https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/maps-public-service.html [2] https://www.hdyc.neis-one.org/?CjMalone https://www.hdyc.neis-one.org/?CjMalone

gnufx 5y ago

Not news to Mateusz, but Microsoft also provide some "streetside" imagery, and there are other imagery providers, like ESRI (lower resolution, but typically more up-to-date and better aligned where I've used it).