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> I don’t see anyone being an effective leader by only sticking around for less than 2 years. Having tenures less than 2 years especially at senior roles doesn’

> I don’t see anyone being an effective leader by only sticking around for less than 2 years. Having tenures less than 2 years especially at senior roles doesn’t give a lot of positive feelings of leadership in my opinion. This is an awful mindset and one wish would just get deleted forever from all the memory of all humans for good. I've been trying to find a senior dev position for the last ~20 months and most gigs I only lasted 3 months and that was because all employers (except one) didn't adhere to the agreed upon contract because let's face it, how will I enforce it? So I was left with a few CTOs asking me why am I job hopping and they didn't believe me that I busted my arse working to prove myself on every single gig I landed in the mentioned period but was given super unfair conditions and deadlines and was met with expectations that the most senior dev in their company couldn't adhere to. So please, do consider that what you say is only one side of the coin. I don't know if it was bad luck or me emitting the wrong signals during interviews; likely the latter because Occam's Razor says so. But even if that's the case, I feel I didn't deserve the skepticism that was projected towards me. The interviewers came to the interview already assuming that I am a job hopper. It is not fair.

horsawlarway 5y ago
If you meet one person who's an asshole, they're probably an asshole. If every person you meet is an asshole... Consider some self-reflection.
- pdimitar 5y ago
  Have you considered that I had exit interviews and gathered actual feedback before generalizing? Don't answer, it's obvious that you haven't. It's also obvious that you didn't notice that my previous comment did contain self-reflection. I always seek the blame in myself first. That doesn't mean that blame is always in me however. Bad luck or poorly communicated expectations happen to all of us.
  - horsawlarway 5y ago
    So chiming back in here a few days later since it will probably be just you that sees this... Go read this comment chain again and consider if the way you commented here actually helped you at all. I know for sure that I wouldn't hire you with the attitude you're expressing here (and unlike you, I'm a senior engineer who's involved in hiring) - some thoughts: You seem to want to fight. You're getting emotional and angry. Things are "Obvious" to you. (So obvious!) You're throwing off red flags left and right - To the point where I almost believe you that all your gigs suck, since I can't imagine many decent companies agreeing to hire you in the first place. I'll take a generous approach, and assume you're really venting here, and acting in a way you wouldn't at work. So take it or leave it, here's my piece of advice (and don't worry - I won't comment again). --- There's a sliding scale for how people tend to judge others at work - You can be EXCELLENT at the literal job, but if you're miserable in social interactions, you're going to be a mediocre employee at best. Alternatively, you can be stunningly underwhelming at the actual job (even just plain bad, honestly), but as long as people enjoy doing it with you, you will also be a mediocre employee. If folks have to pick between mediocre employees, people pick the guy they enjoy working with. This applies for basically all choices (who gets hired, who gets fired, who gets promoted, who gets bonuses, etc). Is it fair? No of course not, nothing is "fair". Your best bet is to be positive on both sides of the scale - be somewhat enjoyable to work with, and do the job ok. Your worst bet is to be painful to work with, and egotistical about how valuable you are. If you can only pick one - prefer being easy to work with. It pays better dividends and is more transferable.
    - pdimitar 5y ago
      (I don't at all mind if you comment even further.) And well, see, your comment here is the problem with virtual text-only communication. You start off spotting one or two signs that might point to a pattern that you recognize from your past experiences, and then every other ambiguous sign afterwards you interpret in favour of your preliminary conclusion. Yes, I was venting here on HN; I am calm-mannered and fairly normal guy in all work settings -- this has been said to me many times. I am a professional, and the last time I raised my voice (or were conflict-y in general) in a work meeting was at least 7 years ago. Let me also remind you that I am referring only to a fairly recent period in my career (less than 2 years) which spans 20 years in total. Can't fault you for rushing to conclusions given how the chats here went. But I get sad when I spot people doing it regardless. I am having difficulties accepting that you're taking a generous approach when you tell me that I give off red signs left and right, which by itself is a generalization. If you truly were generous you'd assume that I have sort of a PTSD (which I absolutely do have, sadly) from toxic employers that I did misjudge so it's also at least 50% my fault for working with them and getting some traumas out of those experiences (which then make me less desirable because I became jumpy). That becomes a self-perpetuating cycle at one point: you get so used to toxic people that you start reacting violently and negatively early in the process which can and will turn off legitimately positive and constructive employers. Had that happen to me as well, twice, and I hope that I have taken my lessons from it. And this is the problem for me here: > Go read this comment chain again and consider if the way you commented here actually helped you at all. I should give positive benefit of the doubt but none is given to me. Compare this to school bullying: you have done nothing bad to anyone, get bullied excessively anyway, then one day erupt and smack somebody in the face who completely deserves it, then eat all the blame? I will refuse to accept blame in such a scenario. So my apologies for previously negative tone but in your comment here you leaned waaaaaay too far in a negative direction and I can't in clear conscience agree with what you said. I had my faults (likely still have some of them) but you did fail to consider that I was "bullied" and at one point stopped giving a frak. That can happen to anyone and it's very easy to sit on a moral high ground when it never happened to you -- or imagine that you would never react like this had you been in my place. I am very skeptical on that last point. I've seen very calm and almost phlegmatic people turn into raging aggressors given the right shitty conditions in life. You're not immune as well, I am sure. --- Going to the second half of your comment, I get what you're saying and I always preferred to be nice to work with and not necessarily super excellent in what I do -- although I keep trying every day; that's why I picked programming ever since 12 years old and I am still doing it now at 41 y/o; it's passion, it's not only money. But I do get sad when people who only read how I got a little bitter from past experiences immediately jump to conclusions. :( Critical thinking and good self-reflection on your side would have told you that you might be rushing into judging. Still, I can't take that away from you and I would not even if I could. This comment of mine is also not strictly positive but at one point it gets hard to be peaceful and calm when you feel people are claiming things about you that many others have told you are not true (and again, I do my very very best not to only utilize my own judgement which is of course skewed; ego and all, as we all know, but to ask for other people's feedback). This is my more level-headed take. You can do with it as you please, I believe I expressed myself much better this time around. (EDIT: If you are curious, go through my comment history quickly. I am not the most politically correct person -- and never will be -- but I don't go around attacking people or jump at them.)
- alexjplant 5y ago
  Although a wonderfully pithy platitude this doesn't tell the whole story. Assholes often congregate in groups because they reinforce and enable each others' negative tendencies, so if you consistently meet a lot of them then it can also mean that you're at least an OK person that's bad at selecting friends, coworkers, or places to live. People that exhibit bad behavior in peer groups that tolerate it love trotting this line out because it lets them invalidate others' valid criticisms of them.
baskethead 5y ago
I’m sorry but I fully stand by what I wrote. Seeing many jobs with short tenure indicates something is wrong, either the person is too hard to please or the person isn’t good at their job. I will most certainly pass on that candidate unless there’s an extraordinary reason not to.
- pdimitar 5y ago
  Why are you not entertaining the third possibility though? That the person might have had shitty luck a few times in a row?
  - baskethead 5y ago
    1 or 2 short gigs is bad luck. A resume filled with short gigs indicates that the person probably has issues. I don't need to take a chance on hiring this person where there are dozens upon dozens of qualified candidates with better grades of resume. Sorry, but this is reality. The next job you get, I suggest you tough it out for 3 or 4 years or more to show that those short gigs aren't the norm.
    - pdimitar 5y ago
      Sigh, there is another person who knows what I did and why, better than I do. Oh well, I tried. (And by the way it was 3 shitty gigs. No idea why you somehow draw the line at 2.)
      - baskethead 5y ago
        You don’t seem to understand. No one owes you a job. It doesn’t matter what their reasons are. Is it fair that you get discriminated against because of your claimed bad luck? No. But that is the reality of the situation. You need to accept this instead of whining about it. But a bunch of short term jobs means you’re either a job hopper or you have been fired very quickly many times. To be honest, assuming you’re a job hopper is the better of the two assumptions. Instead of trying to fight it, I suggest you figure out a way out of it. Get a new job and stick with it for a longer period of time. Or don’t include some of the jobs on your resume when you apply for a new job. Or put on your resume that you had short term contract positions and now you’re looking for permanent positions. I have over 25 years of experience. I need to do leetcode every night so that I can compete against kids half my age for the same job. Is that fair? No. I have over quadruple their experience. But it’s the reality of the situation. So instead of whining about it, I’m studying leetcode every night so that I can find a new job. I suggest you take the same attitude.
physicsguy 5y ago
In what way were they not sticking to the agreed contract? Because whether people view you leaving as reasonable or not is going to hinge a lot on what you mean by that
- pdimitar 5y ago
  I was promised -- and signed a contract with that language -- that my job will be strictly technical and I will not be made responsible for project planning, prioritization or coaching. I have zero problems doing these but I was going through a rough patch and needed a job that was more merciful to my mental health. I was realistic about my situation and communicated the right expectations early. I specifically asked for that, was promised that, signed a contract that said that, and they still turned back on their word (and signature) no later than my 3rd week with them. In retrospect there were red flags from both sides (from the employer and from myself) but they weren't as obvious to me back then. Oh well, we live and learn.

horsawlarway 5y ago

If you meet one person who's an asshole, they're probably an asshole. If every person you meet is an asshole... Consider some self-reflection.

pdimitar 5y ago
Have you considered that I had exit interviews and gathered actual feedback before generalizing? Don't answer, it's obvious that you haven't. It's also obvious that you didn't notice that my previous comment did contain self-reflection. I always seek the blame in myself first. That doesn't mean that blame is always in me however. Bad luck or poorly communicated expectations happen to all of us.
- horsawlarway 5y ago
  So chiming back in here a few days later since it will probably be just you that sees this... Go read this comment chain again and consider if the way you commented here actually helped you at all. I know for sure that I wouldn't hire you with the attitude you're expressing here (and unlike you, I'm a senior engineer who's involved in hiring) - some thoughts: You seem to want to fight. You're getting emotional and angry. Things are "Obvious" to you. (So obvious!) You're throwing off red flags left and right - To the point where I almost believe you that all your gigs suck, since I can't imagine many decent companies agreeing to hire you in the first place. I'll take a generous approach, and assume you're really venting here, and acting in a way you wouldn't at work. So take it or leave it, here's my piece of advice (and don't worry - I won't comment again). --- There's a sliding scale for how people tend to judge others at work - You can be EXCELLENT at the literal job, but if you're miserable in social interactions, you're going to be a mediocre employee at best. Alternatively, you can be stunningly underwhelming at the actual job (even just plain bad, honestly), but as long as people enjoy doing it with you, you will also be a mediocre employee. If folks have to pick between mediocre employees, people pick the guy they enjoy working with. This applies for basically all choices (who gets hired, who gets fired, who gets promoted, who gets bonuses, etc). Is it fair? No of course not, nothing is "fair". Your best bet is to be positive on both sides of the scale - be somewhat enjoyable to work with, and do the job ok. Your worst bet is to be painful to work with, and egotistical about how valuable you are. If you can only pick one - prefer being easy to work with. It pays better dividends and is more transferable.
  - pdimitar 5y ago
    (I don't at all mind if you comment even further.) And well, see, your comment here is the problem with virtual text-only communication. You start off spotting one or two signs that might point to a pattern that you recognize from your past experiences, and then every other ambiguous sign afterwards you interpret in favour of your preliminary conclusion. Yes, I was venting here on HN; I am calm-mannered and fairly normal guy in all work settings -- this has been said to me many times. I am a professional, and the last time I raised my voice (or were conflict-y in general) in a work meeting was at least 7 years ago. Let me also remind you that I am referring only to a fairly recent period in my career (less than 2 years) which spans 20 years in total. Can't fault you for rushing to conclusions given how the chats here went. But I get sad when I spot people doing it regardless. I am having difficulties accepting that you're taking a generous approach when you tell me that I give off red signs left and right, which by itself is a generalization. If you truly were generous you'd assume that I have sort of a PTSD (which I absolutely do have, sadly) from toxic employers that I did misjudge so it's also at least 50% my fault for working with them and getting some traumas out of those experiences (which then make me less desirable because I became jumpy). That becomes a self-perpetuating cycle at one point: you get so used to toxic people that you start reacting violently and negatively early in the process which can and will turn off legitimately positive and constructive employers. Had that happen to me as well, twice, and I hope that I have taken my lessons from it. And this is the problem for me here: > Go read this comment chain again and consider if the way you commented here actually helped you at all. I should give positive benefit of the doubt but none is given to me. Compare this to school bullying: you have done nothing bad to anyone, get bullied excessively anyway, then one day erupt and smack somebody in the face who completely deserves it, then eat all the blame? I will refuse to accept blame in such a scenario. So my apologies for previously negative tone but in your comment here you leaned waaaaaay too far in a negative direction and I can't in clear conscience agree with what you said. I had my faults (likely still have some of them) but you did fail to consider that I was "bullied" and at one point stopped giving a frak. That can happen to anyone and it's very easy to sit on a moral high ground when it never happened to you -- or imagine that you would never react like this had you been in my place. I am very skeptical on that last point. I've seen very calm and almost phlegmatic people turn into raging aggressors given the right shitty conditions in life. You're not immune as well, I am sure. --- Going to the second half of your comment, I get what you're saying and I always preferred to be nice to work with and not necessarily super excellent in what I do -- although I keep trying every day; that's why I picked programming ever since 12 years old and I am still doing it now at 41 y/o; it's passion, it's not only money. But I do get sad when people who only read how I got a little bitter from past experiences immediately jump to conclusions. :( Critical thinking and good self-reflection on your side would have told you that you might be rushing into judging. Still, I can't take that away from you and I would not even if I could. This comment of mine is also not strictly positive but at one point it gets hard to be peaceful and calm when you feel people are claiming things about you that many others have told you are not true (and again, I do my very very best not to only utilize my own judgement which is of course skewed; ego and all, as we all know, but to ask for other people's feedback). This is my more level-headed take. You can do with it as you please, I believe I expressed myself much better this time around. (EDIT: If you are curious, go through my comment history quickly. I am not the most politically correct person -- and never will be -- but I don't go around attacking people or jump at them.)
alexjplant 5y ago
Although a wonderfully pithy platitude this doesn't tell the whole story. Assholes often congregate in groups because they reinforce and enable each others' negative tendencies, so if you consistently meet a lot of them then it can also mean that you're at least an OK person that's bad at selecting friends, coworkers, or places to live. People that exhibit bad behavior in peer groups that tolerate it love trotting this line out because it lets them invalidate others' valid criticisms of them.

baskethead 5y ago

I’m sorry but I fully stand by what I wrote. Seeing many jobs with short tenure indicates something is wrong, either the person is too hard to please or the person isn’t good at their job. I will most certainly pass on that candidate unless there’s an extraordinary reason not to.

pdimitar 5y ago
Why are you not entertaining the third possibility though? That the person might have had shitty luck a few times in a row?
- baskethead 5y ago
  1 or 2 short gigs is bad luck. A resume filled with short gigs indicates that the person probably has issues. I don't need to take a chance on hiring this person where there are dozens upon dozens of qualified candidates with better grades of resume. Sorry, but this is reality. The next job you get, I suggest you tough it out for 3 or 4 years or more to show that those short gigs aren't the norm.
  - pdimitar 5y ago
    Sigh, there is another person who knows what I did and why, better than I do. Oh well, I tried. (And by the way it was 3 shitty gigs. No idea why you somehow draw the line at 2.)
    - baskethead 5y ago
      You don’t seem to understand. No one owes you a job. It doesn’t matter what their reasons are. Is it fair that you get discriminated against because of your claimed bad luck? No. But that is the reality of the situation. You need to accept this instead of whining about it. But a bunch of short term jobs means you’re either a job hopper or you have been fired very quickly many times. To be honest, assuming you’re a job hopper is the better of the two assumptions. Instead of trying to fight it, I suggest you figure out a way out of it. Get a new job and stick with it for a longer period of time. Or don’t include some of the jobs on your resume when you apply for a new job. Or put on your resume that you had short term contract positions and now you’re looking for permanent positions. I have over 25 years of experience. I need to do leetcode every night so that I can compete against kids half my age for the same job. Is that fair? No. I have over quadruple their experience. But it’s the reality of the situation. So instead of whining about it, I’m studying leetcode every night so that I can find a new job. I suggest you take the same attitude.

physicsguy 5y ago

In what way were they not sticking to the agreed contract? Because whether people view you leaving as reasonable or not is going to hinge a lot on what you mean by that

pdimitar 5y ago
I was promised -- and signed a contract with that language -- that my job will be strictly technical and I will not be made responsible for project planning, prioritization or coaching. I have zero problems doing these but I was going through a rough patch and needed a job that was more merciful to my mental health. I was realistic about my situation and communicated the right expectations early. I specifically asked for that, was promised that, signed a contract that said that, and they still turned back on their word (and signature) no later than my 3rd week with them. In retrospect there were red flags from both sides (from the employer and from myself) but they weren't as obvious to me back then. Oh well, we live and learn.