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I was surprised how many eastern European countries seem to top the list of excess death counts per capita, and have much higher excess deaths than official cov

I was surprised how many eastern European countries seem to top the list of excess death counts per capita, and have much higher excess deaths than official covid deaths. Does anyone know what the causes are? Are they dealing with much worse epidemics of addiction, alcohol, poverty, or something else than most of the world? Or did they have an older population? Or is it mostly from covid but under-reported, and somehow eastern Europe was especially hard-hit?

NicoJuicy 5y ago
I believe many of them are directly correlated because of influence of Russia. Those countries have more anti-vaxxers too. Some of them have bought the Russian vaccine and well... That's not working out for them. Similar to other countries that bought the Russian vaccine fyi. So you could check out Brasil and Mexico as a reference for my statement. I can't think of another cause/correlation.
- usaphp 5y ago
  it's not like Pfizer or Moderna vaccine are working any better, we are still under lockdown, even tho 80% of population is vaccinated
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    Yes it does. Just check excess deaths, that's what this article is about... They both already reduce severe illness. Additionally, it's not just about the efficiency of the vaccine. But the Russian vaccine is overpromised and underdelivered regarding to sales/deliveries to the countries that agreed to buy it. They are severely failing to deliver the 2nd dose as promised. Let's not go into detail about the corruption associated with it too... Plenty of resources to verify if you did a little bit of effort ;) https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/07/09/a-royal-mark-up-how-an-emirati-sheikh-resells-millions-of-russian-vaccines-to-the-developing-world-a74461 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/07/09/a-royal-mark-up-ho... https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/11/15/what-went-wrong-with-russia-s-sputnik-v-vaccine-rollout-pub-85783 https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/11/15/what-went-wrong-wit... https://apnews.com/article/world-news-mexico-russia-europe-coronavirus-vaccine-3f9b0455d1717c02e28fc710defee0ee https://apnews.com/article/world-news-mexico-russia-europe-c... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58003893.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58003893.amp https://www.news18.com/amp/news/india/what-went-wrong-with-full-rollout-of-russia-sputnik-v-vaccine-in-india-4469018.html https://www.news18.com/amp/news/india/what-went-wrong-with-f... https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/guatemala-asks-russia-return-money-over-failure-deliver-sputnik-covid-19-vaccine-2021-06-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/... https://amp.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/jul/22/argentina-sputnik-vaccine-russia-fails-to-deliver https://amp.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/jul/22/a... They didn't even do phase 3 trials and refuse to give sufficient information to the WHO. That's what you get for rushing things just to call dibs. What a mess.
    - usaphp 5y ago
      Not sure where do you see that, looking at United States from the chart: - October 2020, +15% deviation from expected deaths - October 2021, +25% deviation from expected deaths
      - adventured 5y ago
        The US is under-vaccinated versus its affluent peers and is also just about the heavy weight champ of the world (ie loaded with comorbidities that amp up the Covid mortality rate, such as diabetes). What's confusing about it?
        jjeaff 5y ago
        Ya, and it just so happens that there is a big overlap in obesity, low income, and those that won't get vaccinated. Which has created a double whammy when it comes to US deaths.
    - tiahura 5y ago
      Vaccines made a negligible difference to the case fatality rate.
      - manuelabeledo 5y ago
        > Vaccines made a negligible difference to the case fatality rate. Source? Because everywhere I look, vaccines seem to reduce the risk of hospitalization and death.
  - baxtr 5y ago
    Where are you located?
    - genewitch 5y ago
      Off the cuff, The Netherlands is currently in lockdown, and I can't remember the other ones.
      - NicoJuicy 5y ago
        It's a partial lockdown in the Netherlands, mostly because countries/they were afraid if the infection rate of omicron. I suppose they will lift it soon now more studies are getting released about it's severity. A new variant doesn't mean that there's no danger because you are vaccinated. Studies need to happen for efficiency/severity. Edit for below ( can't reply, sorry): New cases != Severe cases
        the-dude 5y ago
        Not mentioned : infections were at record highs just before this lockdown. With a vacrate of 80%+ ( ~ 83% couple of weeks ago ). > New cases != Severe cases ICU were nearing capacity, there was talk about black scenario's. If you can't reply, click the timestamp of the post
        NicoJuicy 5y ago
        If I look at the Netherlands, the spike of deaths was on 9 December: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/netherlands/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/netherland... For me, that means it is mostly delta and not omicron. Considering the delay on hospitalisation/death and the appearance of omicron in Europe. Just like the UK, the Netherlands was indeed close to severe issues in healthcare. Ps. Hi from Belgium
        the-dude 5y ago
        > For me, that means it is mostly delta and not omicron. For sure it was not omicron. But that is not what this subthread is about. We had ~83% vacrate and record high infections. And health care nearing capacity. And OP was doubting the effeciacy of the vaccines. Maybe he is right. High vacrates don't seem to do much.
  - KoftaBob 5y ago
    No state or city in the US has any "lockdowns" in effect. Unless you've been living in complete isolation off the grid and re-emerged today, your comment is a classic internet strawman.
pashamur 5y ago
Most likely under-reported COVID deaths. Having looked at the Russia data at least, many deaths (earlier on) were marked with "pneumonia" and they didn't even bother testing for COVID.
- jjeaff 5y ago
  I have found that pneumonia is apparently broadly misunderstood by a lot of people. (It's an inflammatory issue in the lungs, usually caused by a viral or bacterial infection. It is not it's own type of virus.) We had some family friends that refused to get vaccinated. The wife contracted COVID and then died a few weeks later. When we asked the husband if he was going to get vaccinated, he said no. Because COVID is no worse than a cold. He explained that his wife died from pneumonia, not COVID. I have seen this repeated a lot when it comes to cause of death. Reports can show things like cardio pulmonary arrest (which means your heart and lungs stopped) complicated by COVID and heart disease or whatever. And then people go away saying well, COVID didn't kill them, it was a cardio pulmonary arrest ... and they had heart disease... It's amazing how much you can convince yourself of if you want to.
  - josephg 5y ago
    Yep. It’s like saying someone who’s been shot didn’t die from a bullet. They died of internal hemorrhaging. It’s a distinction without a difference.
    - jjeaff 5y ago
      And the shooting victim was older, so, they probably would have died soon anyway. Or, the shooting victim had preexisting conditions. So it wasn't "just" the gun shot wound that killed them.
      - drjasonharrison 5y ago
        No, they died because they didn't have enough oxygen transported to the brain and internal organs.
Zigurd 5y ago
Russia appears to be in deep denial. Some of that influence will spread through the ethnic Russian population in other Eastern European countries. Follow the link in the article to the overall likely undercount, based on excess deaths. It is pretty horrifying.
- jwithington 5y ago
  Uh…did Russia about to lose about 1% of its population due to COVID?? Slightly over 1M excess deaths in a country with a population of 145M.
  - Zigurd 5y ago
    I recall seeing articles that the largest postwar drop in Russia's population was in 2021
jeffbee 5y ago
Right-authoritarian governments with populists strongman executives like Russia and Hungary are completely unequipped to handle anything like this disease.
tim333 5y ago
I think a lot is attitude, chatting to a couple of eastern European friends the people like there are like big deal and ignore it to a large extent.

NicoJuicy 5y ago

I believe many of them are directly correlated because of influence of Russia. Those countries have more anti-vaxxers too. Some of them have bought the Russian vaccine and well... That's not working out for them. Similar to other countries that bought the Russian vaccine fyi. So you could check out Brasil and Mexico as a reference for my statement. I can't think of another cause/correlation.

usaphp 5y ago
it's not like Pfizer or Moderna vaccine are working any better, we are still under lockdown, even tho 80% of population is vaccinated
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  Yes it does. Just check excess deaths, that's what this article is about... They both already reduce severe illness. Additionally, it's not just about the efficiency of the vaccine. But the Russian vaccine is overpromised and underdelivered regarding to sales/deliveries to the countries that agreed to buy it. They are severely failing to deliver the 2nd dose as promised. Let's not go into detail about the corruption associated with it too... Plenty of resources to verify if you did a little bit of effort ;) https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/07/09/a-royal-mark-up-how-an-emirati-sheikh-resells-millions-of-russian-vaccines-to-the-developing-world-a74461 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/07/09/a-royal-mark-up-ho... https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/11/15/what-went-wrong-with-russia-s-sputnik-v-vaccine-rollout-pub-85783 https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/11/15/what-went-wrong-wit... https://apnews.com/article/world-news-mexico-russia-europe-coronavirus-vaccine-3f9b0455d1717c02e28fc710defee0ee https://apnews.com/article/world-news-mexico-russia-europe-c... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58003893.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58003893.amp https://www.news18.com/amp/news/india/what-went-wrong-with-full-rollout-of-russia-sputnik-v-vaccine-in-india-4469018.html https://www.news18.com/amp/news/india/what-went-wrong-with-f... https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/guatemala-asks-russia-return-money-over-failure-deliver-sputnik-covid-19-vaccine-2021-06-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/... https://amp.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/jul/22/argentina-sputnik-vaccine-russia-fails-to-deliver https://amp.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/jul/22/a... They didn't even do phase 3 trials and refuse to give sufficient information to the WHO. That's what you get for rushing things just to call dibs. What a mess.
  - usaphp 5y ago
    Not sure where do you see that, looking at United States from the chart: - October 2020, +15% deviation from expected deaths - October 2021, +25% deviation from expected deaths
    - adventured 5y ago
      The US is under-vaccinated versus its affluent peers and is also just about the heavy weight champ of the world (ie loaded with comorbidities that amp up the Covid mortality rate, such as diabetes). What's confusing about it?
      - jjeaff 5y ago
        Ya, and it just so happens that there is a big overlap in obesity, low income, and those that won't get vaccinated. Which has created a double whammy when it comes to US deaths.
  - tiahura 5y ago
    Vaccines made a negligible difference to the case fatality rate.
    - manuelabeledo 5y ago
      > Vaccines made a negligible difference to the case fatality rate. Source? Because everywhere I look, vaccines seem to reduce the risk of hospitalization and death.
- baxtr 5y ago
  Where are you located?
  - genewitch 5y ago
    Off the cuff, The Netherlands is currently in lockdown, and I can't remember the other ones.
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      It's a partial lockdown in the Netherlands, mostly because countries/they were afraid if the infection rate of omicron. I suppose they will lift it soon now more studies are getting released about it's severity. A new variant doesn't mean that there's no danger because you are vaccinated. Studies need to happen for efficiency/severity. Edit for below ( can't reply, sorry): New cases != Severe cases
      - the-dude 5y ago
        Not mentioned : infections were at record highs just before this lockdown. With a vacrate of 80%+ ( ~ 83% couple of weeks ago ). > New cases != Severe cases ICU were nearing capacity, there was talk about black scenario's. If you can't reply, click the timestamp of the post
        NicoJuicy 5y ago
        If I look at the Netherlands, the spike of deaths was on 9 December: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/netherlands/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/netherland... For me, that means it is mostly delta and not omicron. Considering the delay on hospitalisation/death and the appearance of omicron in Europe. Just like the UK, the Netherlands was indeed close to severe issues in healthcare. Ps. Hi from Belgium
        the-dude 5y ago
        > For me, that means it is mostly delta and not omicron. For sure it was not omicron. But that is not what this subthread is about. We had ~83% vacrate and record high infections. And health care nearing capacity. And OP was doubting the effeciacy of the vaccines. Maybe he is right. High vacrates don't seem to do much.
- KoftaBob 5y ago
  No state or city in the US has any "lockdowns" in effect. Unless you've been living in complete isolation off the grid and re-emerged today, your comment is a classic internet strawman.

pashamur 5y ago

Most likely under-reported COVID deaths. Having looked at the Russia data at least, many deaths (earlier on) were marked with "pneumonia" and they didn't even bother testing for COVID.

jjeaff 5y ago
I have found that pneumonia is apparently broadly misunderstood by a lot of people. (It's an inflammatory issue in the lungs, usually caused by a viral or bacterial infection. It is not it's own type of virus.) We had some family friends that refused to get vaccinated. The wife contracted COVID and then died a few weeks later. When we asked the husband if he was going to get vaccinated, he said no. Because COVID is no worse than a cold. He explained that his wife died from pneumonia, not COVID. I have seen this repeated a lot when it comes to cause of death. Reports can show things like cardio pulmonary arrest (which means your heart and lungs stopped) complicated by COVID and heart disease or whatever. And then people go away saying well, COVID didn't kill them, it was a cardio pulmonary arrest ... and they had heart disease... It's amazing how much you can convince yourself of if you want to.
- josephg 5y ago
  Yep. It’s like saying someone who’s been shot didn’t die from a bullet. They died of internal hemorrhaging. It’s a distinction without a difference.
  - jjeaff 5y ago
    And the shooting victim was older, so, they probably would have died soon anyway. Or, the shooting victim had preexisting conditions. So it wasn't "just" the gun shot wound that killed them.
    - drjasonharrison 5y ago
      No, they died because they didn't have enough oxygen transported to the brain and internal organs.

Zigurd 5y ago

Russia appears to be in deep denial. Some of that influence will spread through the ethnic Russian population in other Eastern European countries. Follow the link in the article to the overall likely undercount, based on excess deaths. It is pretty horrifying.

jwithington 5y ago
Uh…did Russia about to lose about 1% of its population due to COVID?? Slightly over 1M excess deaths in a country with a population of 145M.
- Zigurd 5y ago
  I recall seeing articles that the largest postwar drop in Russia's population was in 2021

jeffbee 5y ago

Right-authoritarian governments with populists strongman executives like Russia and Hungary are completely unequipped to handle anything like this disease.

tim333 5y ago

I think a lot is attitude, chatting to a couple of eastern European friends the people like there are like big deal and ignore it to a large extent.