6 ms·

FrameWork laptop is Tom's favorite laptop of the year—and completely unexpected

85 points by jseliger 5y ago

dharmab 5y ago
Note the article is written by senior editor Alex Wawro, not founder Thomas Pabst
google234123 5y ago
How much time will a laptop owner actually spend repairing or modifying their laptop? How about judging a laptop with how it is to use for the 2000+ hours a year that it is just a laptop?
- errantmind 5y ago
  It isn't about time, it is about tail risk and inconvenience. When there eventually is a problem, you don't want to have to deal with replacing the whole motherboard, or sending the laptop in somewhere. You just want to order a part and fix it in a few minutes.
  - Traster 5y ago
    Companies like Lenovo offer very good warranty services that solve this problem. They’re expensive in absolute terms but in the context of “how much do I earn per hour” they’re absurdly cheap. Likely their repair service is quicker than diagnosing, ordering a part and fixing a fault.
    - nasmorn 5y ago
      I can do my work in a MacBook Air. If mine dies I can buy a new one for 999 and resell for 800 after the original got repaired. It is not a financial issue for me at all.
- dharmab 5y ago
  I can say my 2016 macbook spent multiple weeks being repaired for an issue that would have been trivial to fix myself on a framework
- nowherebeen 5y ago
  I think this is a good point. As long as the build quality is top notch, I don’t mind not being able to modify the laptop. Only Apple meets my standards on build quality.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    When has Apple ever made a laptop with good build quality? This generation, the problem is screens randomly shattering, last generation, the problem was the butterfly keyboards, and the generation before that, the problem was the display cable wearing out.
    - DarylZero 5y ago
      Even with those issues, better than most of the crap out there.
    - andreareina 5y ago
      The way I'd put it is that they have great execution but not as much of a focus on designing for designing for use and longevity. Add an unwillingness to admit mistakes out loud and you get design flaws that persist over multiple refreshes of the same product.
  - j45 5y ago
    I'm not sure if Apple has good build quality. It has the nicest design quality perhaps. From a design quality perspective PC laptops have come a long way and caught up in some cases. Microsoft's Surface is one. The Framework is MacBook Pro (intel) power in a MacBook Air footprint. 64 GB of ram is no issue, and it runs cool. Every single one of my MacBook pros, especially the 15"+ have met an untimely demise. I have not had a Macbook pro since 2007 that has not needed to go in multiple times for AppleCare, be it for faulty GPUs (Oh, Santa Rosa), or thermal issues where the laptop can't cool itself long term. The exceptions to this rule has been the 2013 Macbook Air, and the 2014-15 Macbook Pro. Quite possibly peak Apple. The latest M1 laptops look interesting but until the software catches up compatibility wise it will be too early. Apple's latest might appear the greatest until pushed to use in a daily driver mode. In that part it's often worth sitting out the first revision of much of their equipment until they figure out things like cooling, or antennas.
- webmobdev 5y ago
  The important thing is that when you want to upgrade or repair the laptop, you have the choice and convenience to do so affordably. Frame.Work has struck the right balance between its own interest and that of its customers. It's a truly commendable thing, and they deserve the genuine goodwill they have earned. And Apple also rightly deserves the derision it gets in comparison to the high repairability of the Frame.Work laptops.
- dwohnitmok 5y ago
  The article addresses this: > I had to admit the company delivered on its promise: the Framework truly is the most owner-friendly laptop I’ve ever used. > I almost wrote “user-friendly” there, but it doesn’t quite describe why I think so highly of this device. Sure, the laptop’s clever design makes a very complicated piece of tech feel pretty simple to use.... But it does still demand a certain amount of interest in tinkering with your laptop... No, the Framework is the most owner-friendly laptop I’ve ever seen because it’s clearly designed by people who respect their customers.... Of course, none of these features would matter much if the laptop itself was subpar. On the contrary: in my experience it’s a well-built ultraportable that’s as slim and easy to carry as a MacBook Air, with a comfy keyboard, a great 1080p webcam, and more than enough power to tackle anything you’d do in the course of a workday.
- ksec 5y ago
  I agree to a point, the perfect laptop isn't user serviceable laptop, but indestructible laptop. That it should last 10 years without failing ( ignoring software update ). Or the service of the my laptop wasn't price gouged to the point forcing users buying a new laptop. Unfortunately Apple has somehow literally made it a mission to drive their AppleCare services revenue. And others in the industry completely neglect after sales services. ( Unless you have on-site repairing ) My view is that Framework wasn't born out of fun, nerds' needs or ideology. I mean who start a new PC company in 2020 for fun? In a near negative margin business. It was born out of frustration after users have been shouting for years and the industries completely ignore them while milking them for repeated purchases. Apple's MacBook Pro 2016 design and response add the final fuel to move the inertia that enough is enough.
- j45 5y ago
  With most laptops usually .5 to a few hours. Framework is 5-15 minutes for most things. That's important for a few reasons. The thing is, when you buy a laptop, you don't buy a new laptop as much as the death of that laptop. I haven't had a single Macbook Pro that hasn't failed on me. Not a scratch on them, just use them consistently enough. After the 5th or 15th laptop, you realize it's more about transitioning your setup and minimizing that pain. Framework provides both ease of blind use, and should something go awry, you could literally replace a part in a few minutes. I could see myself having a spare one for parts and actually being able to use the parts. There's really no reason in 2021 that any laptop repair, service or adjustment shouldn't take 5-15 minutes, except to separate a person from their money more consistently. Laptop innovation has been slow at best, and Framework seems to have delivered a device that is nothing like a first generation device. It's ridiculous you can't just upgrade or downgrade your ram and CPU to your liking, that's how laptops originally were and could extend the lifetime a laptop from 3 to 6 years. Instead, using 30 kinds of different screws in a laptop because it's where do we get the cheapest/minimum spec components every month is a way to create disposable computers that only get you to spend $ when it's needed. I tend to like a new laptop every 3-4 years but only because the macbook seems to have thermal failures from using it so much weekly.
dpark 5y ago
> The Framework’s remarkable expansion card system is another reason why this laptop is my favorite of the year. If you’re not familiar with it, the bottom of the laptop sports four slots, each of which accepts a Framework Expansion Card that slides into place with a click and connects to the laptop via USB-C… It’s literally custom USB-C dongles. If Apple shipped this people would decry them as leveraging their lock in to make people buy basic ports that should have been built in for free. > You could swap in an HDMI out when you’re going to give a presentation, for example, or a microSD card reader when you need to pull some photos off a camera. Yep. That’s how dongles work.
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  I thought the word "dongle" only referred to external things (remember the "fork my dongle" controversy?). With the framework, they're part of the laptop and won't catch on things, get left behind, or prevent it from fitting into your bag.
- drekk 5y ago
  Apple doesn't let you switch out the mainboard. I think that's the value of these USB-C dongles that are cheaper than Apple peripherals + lay flush to the laptop. Sticking to USB-C means the chassis doesn't have to change between upgrades
- ryukafalz 5y ago
  > It’s literally custom USB-C dongles. Yes, but try carrying your laptop around with four USB-C dongles permanently attached and see how well that works for you. This is nice if you don't want to have to constantly remember to carry specific dongles with you. > If Apple shipped this people would decry them as leveraging their lock in to make people buy basic ports that should have been built in for free. No they wouldn't, if it shipped with them like the Framework does.
  - dpark 5y ago
    Framework charges extra for anything that isn’t just usb-c. (But yeah, Apple would charge 2-3x as much for each.) I don’t have an issue with them shipping this feature. It’s not a bad idea. I just find it weird how enthusiastic the author is about custom dongles. This seems, at best, a nice to have.
qudat 5y ago
I have a framework and love it. The major downside are the speakers. https://erock.io/2021/11/01/framework-vs-mbp.html https://erock.io/2021/11/01/framework-vs-mbp.html
- wildrhythms 5y ago
  I have a Framework laptop and a M1 Air. I didn't see this mentioned in your rundown, which was very nicely written and I agree with every point, but going from a fanless M1 Air to a laptop with a fan, that seems to constantly run much hotter despite doing a fraction of the tasks of my Air, is a real disappointment. I'm not sure if this is a consequence of Pop_OS (my current Framework-friendly distro), the Intel CPU, the heat management system, or some combination of those, but it's very noticeable and makes me realize how much more 'premium' (as you put it) the Macbook is. I'm typing this on my M1 Air driving a 4k display with no fan, and no heat.
  - noahtallen 5y ago
    From my understanding and experience, that’s the M1 difference. Intel MacBooks, while also very premium, are known for their heat issues! Thermal throttling was a major problem until a couple years ago. I don’t think the windows situation is any better, and any high-powered windows device (like a gaming laptop) will have a pretty extreme cooling/fan setup. I’d love to see alternatives to the M1 which match the power efficiency and quietness, but I’m not sure they exist yet!
    - hackerfromthefu 5y ago
      My new laptop is practically silent with a hundred browser tabs open - Ryzen 5800u in yoga slim 7 carbon
  - commoner 5y ago
    > I'm not sure if this is a consequence of Pop_OS (my current Framework-friendly distro), the Intel CPU, the heat management system, or some combination of those The 11th-generation Intel CPU is definitely the weakest link. The highest-end CPU available in the Framework Laptop (Intel Core i7-1185G7) scores 11009 on the PassMark CPU Mark benchmark.[1] The Apple M1 in the MacBook Air scores 15109,[2] while the highest-end current-generation Ryzen that is rated at 10-25W TDP (Ryzen 7 5800U) scores 19192.[3] The Apple (5 nm) and Ryzen (7 nm) chips also have lower power consumption and heat emissions because they are manufactured on newer processes than Intel (10 nm). If you want to express support for Ryzen CPUs in a Framework Laptop, there's a forum thread here: https://community.frame.work/t/amd-cpus-please/316 https://community.frame.work/t/amd-cpus-please/316 [1] https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-1185G7+%40+3.00GHz&id=3793 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-1185G... [2] https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Apple+M1+8+Core+3200+MHz&id=4104 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Apple+M1+8+Core+320... [3] https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+7+5800U&id=4102 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+7+5800U&i...
solarkraft 5y ago
There was doubt about whether Framework would really be sustainable. Making such complex novel hard hardware is complicated, add to that an unstable supply chain situation and the many ways the hardware could be unpleasant to use, carry or look at. It looks like they have mastered all of the challenges, made a great device at a pretty okay price and it's popular with just the right people. So much so that Dell feels threatened enough to release pictures of an imaginary competitior. I can now really see Framework laptops eventually taking the role old Thinkpads used to have as the gold standard for prosumer/enthusiast friendly computing.
throwawaysea 5y ago
The big issue, in my opinion, is that most people don’t need repairability above things like a nicer screen or battery life or speakers. As much as I like the idea of framework and want it to succeed, it’s hard competing against Apple’s latest offerings.

85 points by jseliger 5y ago

Note the article is written by senior editor Alex Wawro, not founder Thomas Pabst

How much time will a laptop owner actually spend repairing or modifying their laptop? How about judging a laptop with how it is to use for the 2000+ hours a year that it is just a laptop?

errantmind 5y ago
It isn't about time, it is about tail risk and inconvenience. When there eventually is a problem, you don't want to have to deal with replacing the whole motherboard, or sending the laptop in somewhere. You just want to order a part and fix it in a few minutes.
- Traster 5y ago
  Companies like Lenovo offer very good warranty services that solve this problem. They’re expensive in absolute terms but in the context of “how much do I earn per hour” they’re absurdly cheap. Likely their repair service is quicker than diagnosing, ordering a part and fixing a fault.
  - nasmorn 5y ago
    I can do my work in a MacBook Air. If mine dies I can buy a new one for 999 and resell for 800 after the original got repaired. It is not a financial issue for me at all.
dharmab 5y ago
I can say my 2016 macbook spent multiple weeks being repaired for an issue that would have been trivial to fix myself on a framework
nowherebeen 5y ago
I think this is a good point. As long as the build quality is top notch, I don’t mind not being able to modify the laptop. Only Apple meets my standards on build quality.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  When has Apple ever made a laptop with good build quality? This generation, the problem is screens randomly shattering, last generation, the problem was the butterfly keyboards, and the generation before that, the problem was the display cable wearing out.
  - DarylZero 5y ago
    Even with those issues, better than most of the crap out there.
  - andreareina 5y ago
    The way I'd put it is that they have great execution but not as much of a focus on designing for designing for use and longevity. Add an unwillingness to admit mistakes out loud and you get design flaws that persist over multiple refreshes of the same product.
- j45 5y ago
  I'm not sure if Apple has good build quality. It has the nicest design quality perhaps. From a design quality perspective PC laptops have come a long way and caught up in some cases. Microsoft's Surface is one. The Framework is MacBook Pro (intel) power in a MacBook Air footprint. 64 GB of ram is no issue, and it runs cool. Every single one of my MacBook pros, especially the 15"+ have met an untimely demise. I have not had a Macbook pro since 2007 that has not needed to go in multiple times for AppleCare, be it for faulty GPUs (Oh, Santa Rosa), or thermal issues where the laptop can't cool itself long term. The exceptions to this rule has been the 2013 Macbook Air, and the 2014-15 Macbook Pro. Quite possibly peak Apple. The latest M1 laptops look interesting but until the software catches up compatibility wise it will be too early. Apple's latest might appear the greatest until pushed to use in a daily driver mode. In that part it's often worth sitting out the first revision of much of their equipment until they figure out things like cooling, or antennas.
webmobdev 5y ago
The important thing is that when you want to upgrade or repair the laptop, you have the choice and convenience to do so affordably. Frame.Work has struck the right balance between its own interest and that of its customers. It's a truly commendable thing, and they deserve the genuine goodwill they have earned. And Apple also rightly deserves the derision it gets in comparison to the high repairability of the Frame.Work laptops.
dwohnitmok 5y ago
The article addresses this: > I had to admit the company delivered on its promise: the Framework truly is the most owner-friendly laptop I’ve ever used. > I almost wrote “user-friendly” there, but it doesn’t quite describe why I think so highly of this device. Sure, the laptop’s clever design makes a very complicated piece of tech feel pretty simple to use.... But it does still demand a certain amount of interest in tinkering with your laptop... No, the Framework is the most owner-friendly laptop I’ve ever seen because it’s clearly designed by people who respect their customers.... Of course, none of these features would matter much if the laptop itself was subpar. On the contrary: in my experience it’s a well-built ultraportable that’s as slim and easy to carry as a MacBook Air, with a comfy keyboard, a great 1080p webcam, and more than enough power to tackle anything you’d do in the course of a workday.
ksec 5y ago
I agree to a point, the perfect laptop isn't user serviceable laptop, but indestructible laptop. That it should last 10 years without failing ( ignoring software update ). Or the service of the my laptop wasn't price gouged to the point forcing users buying a new laptop. Unfortunately Apple has somehow literally made it a mission to drive their AppleCare services revenue. And others in the industry completely neglect after sales services. ( Unless you have on-site repairing ) My view is that Framework wasn't born out of fun, nerds' needs or ideology. I mean who start a new PC company in 2020 for fun? In a near negative margin business. It was born out of frustration after users have been shouting for years and the industries completely ignore them while milking them for repeated purchases. Apple's MacBook Pro 2016 design and response add the final fuel to move the inertia that enough is enough.
j45 5y ago
With most laptops usually .5 to a few hours. Framework is 5-15 minutes for most things. That's important for a few reasons. The thing is, when you buy a laptop, you don't buy a new laptop as much as the death of that laptop. I haven't had a single Macbook Pro that hasn't failed on me. Not a scratch on them, just use them consistently enough. After the 5th or 15th laptop, you realize it's more about transitioning your setup and minimizing that pain. Framework provides both ease of blind use, and should something go awry, you could literally replace a part in a few minutes. I could see myself having a spare one for parts and actually being able to use the parts. There's really no reason in 2021 that any laptop repair, service or adjustment shouldn't take 5-15 minutes, except to separate a person from their money more consistently. Laptop innovation has been slow at best, and Framework seems to have delivered a device that is nothing like a first generation device. It's ridiculous you can't just upgrade or downgrade your ram and CPU to your liking, that's how laptops originally were and could extend the lifetime a laptop from 3 to 6 years. Instead, using 30 kinds of different screws in a laptop because it's where do we get the cheapest/minimum spec components every month is a way to create disposable computers that only get you to spend $ when it's needed. I tend to like a new laptop every 3-4 years but only because the macbook seems to have thermal failures from using it so much weekly.

dpark 5y ago

> The Framework’s remarkable expansion card system is another reason why this laptop is my favorite of the year. If you’re not familiar with it, the bottom of the laptop sports four slots, each of which accepts a Framework Expansion Card that slides into place with a click and connects to the laptop via USB-C… It’s literally custom USB-C dongles. If Apple shipped this people would decry them as leveraging their lock in to make people buy basic ports that should have been built in for free. > You could swap in an HDMI out when you’re going to give a presentation, for example, or a microSD card reader when you need to pull some photos off a camera. Yep. That’s how dongles work.

Rebelgecko 5y ago
I thought the word "dongle" only referred to external things (remember the "fork my dongle" controversy?). With the framework, they're part of the laptop and won't catch on things, get left behind, or prevent it from fitting into your bag.
drekk 5y ago
Apple doesn't let you switch out the mainboard. I think that's the value of these USB-C dongles that are cheaper than Apple peripherals + lay flush to the laptop. Sticking to USB-C means the chassis doesn't have to change between upgrades
ryukafalz 5y ago
> It’s literally custom USB-C dongles. Yes, but try carrying your laptop around with four USB-C dongles permanently attached and see how well that works for you. This is nice if you don't want to have to constantly remember to carry specific dongles with you. > If Apple shipped this people would decry them as leveraging their lock in to make people buy basic ports that should have been built in for free. No they wouldn't, if it shipped with them like the Framework does.
- dpark 5y ago
  Framework charges extra for anything that isn’t just usb-c. (But yeah, Apple would charge 2-3x as much for each.) I don’t have an issue with them shipping this feature. It’s not a bad idea. I just find it weird how enthusiastic the author is about custom dongles. This seems, at best, a nice to have.

qudat 5y ago

I have a framework and love it. The major downside are the speakers. https://erock.io/2021/11/01/framework-vs-mbp.html https://erock.io/2021/11/01/framework-vs-mbp.html

wildrhythms 5y ago
I have a Framework laptop and a M1 Air. I didn't see this mentioned in your rundown, which was very nicely written and I agree with every point, but going from a fanless M1 Air to a laptop with a fan, that seems to constantly run much hotter despite doing a fraction of the tasks of my Air, is a real disappointment. I'm not sure if this is a consequence of Pop_OS (my current Framework-friendly distro), the Intel CPU, the heat management system, or some combination of those, but it's very noticeable and makes me realize how much more 'premium' (as you put it) the Macbook is. I'm typing this on my M1 Air driving a 4k display with no fan, and no heat.
- noahtallen 5y ago
  From my understanding and experience, that’s the M1 difference. Intel MacBooks, while also very premium, are known for their heat issues! Thermal throttling was a major problem until a couple years ago. I don’t think the windows situation is any better, and any high-powered windows device (like a gaming laptop) will have a pretty extreme cooling/fan setup. I’d love to see alternatives to the M1 which match the power efficiency and quietness, but I’m not sure they exist yet!
  - hackerfromthefu 5y ago
    My new laptop is practically silent with a hundred browser tabs open - Ryzen 5800u in yoga slim 7 carbon
- commoner 5y ago
  > I'm not sure if this is a consequence of Pop_OS (my current Framework-friendly distro), the Intel CPU, the heat management system, or some combination of those The 11th-generation Intel CPU is definitely the weakest link. The highest-end CPU available in the Framework Laptop (Intel Core i7-1185G7) scores 11009 on the PassMark CPU Mark benchmark.[1] The Apple M1 in the MacBook Air scores 15109,[2] while the highest-end current-generation Ryzen that is rated at 10-25W TDP (Ryzen 7 5800U) scores 19192.[3] The Apple (5 nm) and Ryzen (7 nm) chips also have lower power consumption and heat emissions because they are manufactured on newer processes than Intel (10 nm). If you want to express support for Ryzen CPUs in a Framework Laptop, there's a forum thread here: https://community.frame.work/t/amd-cpus-please/316 https://community.frame.work/t/amd-cpus-please/316 [1] https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-1185G7+%40+3.00GHz&id=3793 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-1185G... [2] https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Apple+M1+8+Core+3200+MHz&id=4104 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Apple+M1+8+Core+320... [3] https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+7+5800U&id=4102 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+7+5800U&i...

solarkraft 5y ago

There was doubt about whether Framework would really be sustainable. Making such complex novel hard hardware is complicated, add to that an unstable supply chain situation and the many ways the hardware could be unpleasant to use, carry or look at. It looks like they have mastered all of the challenges, made a great device at a pretty okay price and it's popular with just the right people. So much so that Dell feels threatened enough to release pictures of an imaginary competitior. I can now really see Framework laptops eventually taking the role old Thinkpads used to have as the gold standard for prosumer/enthusiast friendly computing.

throwawaysea 5y ago

The big issue, in my opinion, is that most people don’t need repairability above things like a nicer screen or battery life or speakers. As much as I like the idea of framework and want it to succeed, it’s hard competing against Apple’s latest offerings.