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As an atheist, I believe humanity — in general; not at an individual level — does indeed need these kinds of fictions. I didn’t believe this a few years ago, b

As an atheist, I believe humanity — in general; not at an individual level — does indeed need these kinds of fictions. I didn’t believe this a few years ago, but Yuval Noah Harari changed my opinion with his book Sapiens.

tomrod 5y ago
It's a strong assertion that we need a God. Rituals, yes, they bind communities. But they need not be tied to morality.
- yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
  I agree with you, and I don't think that's the assertion that Harari makes in his book. He first widens the definition of religion to include other belief systems such as money, commercial organisations, economic systems, and polytheistic religions, and acknowledges that many of these aren't directly bound to any sense of morality (which isn't to say they're immoral either).
  - tomrod 5y ago
    That's fair. I have not fully digested Sapiens yet, and was arguing against the smaller point of clear belief communities versus engagement in the abstract mental models we call society writ large :)
- nottorp 5y ago
  > But they need not be tied to morality. Is morality a monopoly of religion?
  - tomrod 5y ago
    I reread my comment but I'm not sure how you leaped there. I said morality need not be tied to ritual. Religions and morality are often disjoint, simply due to Euthyphro's dilemma and how that plays out in practice. Divine command theory externalizes responsibility for behavior and thus promotes and excuses immoral action (meaning many religion's resolution to the dilemma puts them into a commitment to behaving immorally).
  - vehemenz 5y ago
    No, but the only plausible accounts of moral realism seem to be the religious ones.
  - scotty79 5y ago
    Religions usually usurp the role of being the source of morality. It's a necessity for them because that's the only way they can cover up their deep and vast immorality. You can't be evil if people believe you define what evil means. This way omicient, omnipotent God can still be most moral being in existence while allowing babies to die of cancer.
    - tomrod 5y ago
      Nice way to use divine command theory to reconcile theodicy.

tomrod 5y ago

It's a strong assertion that we need a God. Rituals, yes, they bind communities. But they need not be tied to morality.

yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
I agree with you, and I don't think that's the assertion that Harari makes in his book. He first widens the definition of religion to include other belief systems such as money, commercial organisations, economic systems, and polytheistic religions, and acknowledges that many of these aren't directly bound to any sense of morality (which isn't to say they're immoral either).
- tomrod 5y ago
  That's fair. I have not fully digested Sapiens yet, and was arguing against the smaller point of clear belief communities versus engagement in the abstract mental models we call society writ large :)
nottorp 5y ago
> But they need not be tied to morality. Is morality a monopoly of religion?
- tomrod 5y ago
  I reread my comment but I'm not sure how you leaped there. I said morality need not be tied to ritual. Religions and morality are often disjoint, simply due to Euthyphro's dilemma and how that plays out in practice. Divine command theory externalizes responsibility for behavior and thus promotes and excuses immoral action (meaning many religion's resolution to the dilemma puts them into a commitment to behaving immorally).
- vehemenz 5y ago
  No, but the only plausible accounts of moral realism seem to be the religious ones.
- scotty79 5y ago
  Religions usually usurp the role of being the source of morality. It's a necessity for them because that's the only way they can cover up their deep and vast immorality. You can't be evil if people believe you define what evil means. This way omicient, omnipotent God can still be most moral being in existence while allowing babies to die of cancer.
  - tomrod 5y ago
    Nice way to use divine command theory to reconcile theodicy.