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I sometimes think, one way to break this cycle is to send the all the kids to boarding school or military school. It could put them in an environment free from

I sometimes think, one way to break this cycle is to send the all the kids to boarding school or military school. It could put them in an environment free from their background circumstances. It is of course a harsh thing to do, but I think maybe it could work.

dustintrex 5y ago
"Breaking the cycle by sending the kids away" has a long history of well-intentioned attempts nearly always leading to disastrous outcomes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_sc... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55238090 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55238090 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_children_by_Nazi_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_children_by_Nazi...
- algo646464 5y ago
  That is a good point. But all these had racist reasons at their core. Can this be better implemented today? With extensive supervision and scrutiny. For example, teenagers routinely join the army, and spend time learning and training at what is essentially a boarding school. It seems to work quite well.
  - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
    I'm not sure replacing racism with classism (oh, you are poor, you need to go away to school) is much better. Extensive supervision and scrutiny? I mean, are we not doing some of this with public schools now? And if not, why not? And seriously, we (in the US) allow lots of options for troubled kids without supervision ("work the bad out of you), we've allowed conversion therapy for LGBT+ children, have little oversight on for-profit schools and we allow folks to force their religion on their children, even if the 16- or 17-year-old doesn't believe. I highly doubt there would be oversight. I'd also like to point out that the Canadian schools were really, really recent, and I don't think much has changed since.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    In a some cases they had racism at their core - but that's a step removed. They thought that the parents were (for whatever reason) incapable of raising their children appropriately and that the best way to properly raise the children was away from their homes, their cultures and their problems. They may even have thought their goals were noble and justified - as most folks tend to. I cannot see a meaningful difference between taking kids away from their parents for racial reasons, for class reasons or really any other reason. The issue isn't necessarily why they saw them as inferior, it's that they saw them as inferior. > For example, teenagers routinely join the army, and spend time learning and training at what is essentially a boarding school. This choice is made by the family and the individual. This is not the same thing. A meaningful harm vector is the removal of autonomy.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    >But all these had <insert thing that is considered bad in the current day> reasons at their core. Can this be better implemented today? The people sending the Indians away to religious schools in the 1910s said the same damn thing about prior attempts to do the same damn thing.
watwut 5y ago
Boarding schools did not had that effect. Everyone including teachers is aware of who is who. Plus, they don't exactly raise people to be better.
anovikov 5y ago
I'm thinking of this and i can't see it working. All previous attempts were usually executed on racist grounds, and i don't think we can do the same on non-racist grounds because poverty itself is a result of either intrinsic differences between races, or racism itself, so racial layout of kids in those boarding schools will be similar to the racial layout in prisons... It's hard to expect anything but radicalisation happening there.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  GP did say "all the kids", so maybe they actually meant all the kids, as in rich, poor, in-between. So that it wouldn't be based on family income or school sector or what-have-you. Of course, this could be construed as "discrimination" against the better off, since they have to go through what seems like a tough time "just because of the poor people".
  - anovikov 5y ago
    Oh well this is a terrible idea beyond imagination. Even just simply "solving" poverty by the means of good old segregation, delimiting poor places with barbed wire, sounds better to me.
    - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
      America is actually surprisingly socialist. Children from all backgrounds go to the same school. In my country the middle class guards their children from the deplorables. Education is no longer equal for all.
      - anovikov 5y ago
        It's not, because America is highly segregated by self-increasing difference in school quality (because more expensive homes in the area yield more property taxes to the municipality which are used to fund school), and better schools make richer people move to the place, driving up both home prices, and school qualities too by improving racial and social mix of students, and it goes on and on in a self-propelling virtuous cycle. As a result most places are strictly segregated and no, children from all backgrounds don't go to the same school because they don't live (poor can't afford) in the same school district.
johnebgd 5y ago
Microsoft introduced the School of the Future that had incredible results. https://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-039-School-of-the-Future-34930.shtml https://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-039-School-of-the-... I’m surprised it didn’t catch on more. Maybe others on here were involved and can shed some light on why this initiative stalled?
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Microsoft introduced the School of the Future that had incredible results. Your article cites no actual results. In reality, the problems it seems to have had is that the basic idea just doesn't work: the first years were plain rocky. [0] When it dealt with some of the early problems, it got good results, to the extent it did (and certainly some measures were quite good), largely by costing more, even though the fundamental concept was to prove a scalable, efficient model by requiring no additional funding (so it had to try to close the gap by aggressive outside fundraising to meet the additional costs.) [1] When the baseline funding for public schools dropped, the extra cost of SoF’s original model became even less sustainable. [2] The school still exists, but I can't find anything after 2014 even treating it as a particularly interesting thing. [0] https://www.eschoolnews.com/2009/06/01/school-of-the-future-lessons-in-failure/ https://www.eschoolnews.com/2009/06/01/school-of-the-future-... [1] https://technical.ly/philly/2012/11/12/high-school-of-the-future-microsoft-philadelphia-school-district/ https://technical.ly/philly/2012/11/12/high-school-of-the-fu... [2] https://www.phillytrib.com/news/past-problems-saddle-school-of-the-future/article_03cd6914-70d8-5aca-a8de-df7af94f775f.html https://www.phillytrib.com/news/past-problems-saddle-school-...
dragonwriter 5y ago
> I sometimes think, one way to break this cycle is to send the all the kids to boarding school or military school. This is a pretty standard solution by people working from abstractions that aren't checked against the realities of people. It’s also a stunningly bad idea that tends not to survive past very initial steps toward implementation (on a general societal level; it has often been implemented in a more limited way targeted at disfavored minorities where it is a component of genocide by destroying the people as a people) in real societies, even when there is a powerful governing group devoted religiously to an ideology which embraces it.
johnchristopher 5y ago
> send the all the kids to boarding school or military school. It could put them in an environment free from their background circumstances. It is a common meme in some circles that sending (problematic) kids to boarding or military school will "set them straight". To me, it's basically just hope that a bit more violence will work. Also, after 6 years spent in an environment where you are told what to do every minutes, where rules are clear and mostly non-negotiable, bed and meal times always the same... what happens when you are put back in the regular world ? I exaggerate things to make a point, it's not black and white but still.
- pnutjam 5y ago
  Can confirm. My oldest daughter roomed in College with a girl who came from a structured boarding school. She was a mess. I also recall a similar experience when I was in College.
hellbannedguy 5y ago
JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Once people leave a structured environment (home, boarding school etc) and live 'on their own' even if it's just a dorm room, then tend to act as one who has been leaning against a post, and you take the post away suddenly. It can talk a while for them to stand up straight again - keep their room clean, do their laundry on time, manage their money, wash and dress suitable for the situation. I could always tell in college, which people had not lived on their own before. They were a mess.
cloudedcordial 5y ago
One of the students from my high school, who was orphaned at 11, enrolled himself to the military university. At that school, he got free education, free uniform and free boarding. Every graduates must commit themselves to serve the military for a number of years. He possibly figured out that it's a good way to be independent, to get a quality education and to earn a decent living. That school in my country has not been trivial to get accepted. He aimed for good grades at high school and participated in sports teams.

dustintrex 5y ago

"Breaking the cycle by sending the kids away" has a long history of well-intentioned attempts nearly always leading to disastrous outcomes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_sc... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55238090 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55238090 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_children_by_Nazi_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_children_by_Nazi...

algo646464 5y ago
That is a good point. But all these had racist reasons at their core. Can this be better implemented today? With extensive supervision and scrutiny. For example, teenagers routinely join the army, and spend time learning and training at what is essentially a boarding school. It seems to work quite well.
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  I'm not sure replacing racism with classism (oh, you are poor, you need to go away to school) is much better. Extensive supervision and scrutiny? I mean, are we not doing some of this with public schools now? And if not, why not? And seriously, we (in the US) allow lots of options for troubled kids without supervision ("work the bad out of you), we've allowed conversion therapy for LGBT+ children, have little oversight on for-profit schools and we allow folks to force their religion on their children, even if the 16- or 17-year-old doesn't believe. I highly doubt there would be oversight. I'd also like to point out that the Canadian schools were really, really recent, and I don't think much has changed since.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  In a some cases they had racism at their core - but that's a step removed. They thought that the parents were (for whatever reason) incapable of raising their children appropriately and that the best way to properly raise the children was away from their homes, their cultures and their problems. They may even have thought their goals were noble and justified - as most folks tend to. I cannot see a meaningful difference between taking kids away from their parents for racial reasons, for class reasons or really any other reason. The issue isn't necessarily why they saw them as inferior, it's that they saw them as inferior. > For example, teenagers routinely join the army, and spend time learning and training at what is essentially a boarding school. This choice is made by the family and the individual. This is not the same thing. A meaningful harm vector is the removal of autonomy.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >But all these had <insert thing that is considered bad in the current day> reasons at their core. Can this be better implemented today? The people sending the Indians away to religious schools in the 1910s said the same damn thing about prior attempts to do the same damn thing.

watwut 5y ago

Boarding schools did not had that effect. Everyone including teachers is aware of who is who. Plus, they don't exactly raise people to be better.

anovikov 5y ago

I'm thinking of this and i can't see it working. All previous attempts were usually executed on racist grounds, and i don't think we can do the same on non-racist grounds because poverty itself is a result of either intrinsic differences between races, or racism itself, so racial layout of kids in those boarding schools will be similar to the racial layout in prisons... It's hard to expect anything but radicalisation happening there.

vladvasiliu 5y ago
GP did say "all the kids", so maybe they actually meant all the kids, as in rich, poor, in-between. So that it wouldn't be based on family income or school sector or what-have-you. Of course, this could be construed as "discrimination" against the better off, since they have to go through what seems like a tough time "just because of the poor people".
- anovikov 5y ago
  Oh well this is a terrible idea beyond imagination. Even just simply "solving" poverty by the means of good old segregation, delimiting poor places with barbed wire, sounds better to me.
  - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
    America is actually surprisingly socialist. Children from all backgrounds go to the same school. In my country the middle class guards their children from the deplorables. Education is no longer equal for all.
    - anovikov 5y ago
      It's not, because America is highly segregated by self-increasing difference in school quality (because more expensive homes in the area yield more property taxes to the municipality which are used to fund school), and better schools make richer people move to the place, driving up both home prices, and school qualities too by improving racial and social mix of students, and it goes on and on in a self-propelling virtuous cycle. As a result most places are strictly segregated and no, children from all backgrounds don't go to the same school because they don't live (poor can't afford) in the same school district.

johnebgd 5y ago

Microsoft introduced the School of the Future that had incredible results. https://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-039-School-of-the-Future-34930.shtml https://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-039-School-of-the-... I’m surprised it didn’t catch on more. Maybe others on here were involved and can shed some light on why this initiative stalled?

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Microsoft introduced the School of the Future that had incredible results. Your article cites no actual results. In reality, the problems it seems to have had is that the basic idea just doesn't work: the first years were plain rocky. [0] When it dealt with some of the early problems, it got good results, to the extent it did (and certainly some measures were quite good), largely by costing more, even though the fundamental concept was to prove a scalable, efficient model by requiring no additional funding (so it had to try to close the gap by aggressive outside fundraising to meet the additional costs.) [1] When the baseline funding for public schools dropped, the extra cost of SoF’s original model became even less sustainable. [2] The school still exists, but I can't find anything after 2014 even treating it as a particularly interesting thing. [0] https://www.eschoolnews.com/2009/06/01/school-of-the-future-lessons-in-failure/ https://www.eschoolnews.com/2009/06/01/school-of-the-future-... [1] https://technical.ly/philly/2012/11/12/high-school-of-the-future-microsoft-philadelphia-school-district/ https://technical.ly/philly/2012/11/12/high-school-of-the-fu... [2] https://www.phillytrib.com/news/past-problems-saddle-school-of-the-future/article_03cd6914-70d8-5aca-a8de-df7af94f775f.html https://www.phillytrib.com/news/past-problems-saddle-school-...

dragonwriter 5y ago

> I sometimes think, one way to break this cycle is to send the all the kids to boarding school or military school. This is a pretty standard solution by people working from abstractions that aren't checked against the realities of people. It’s also a stunningly bad idea that tends not to survive past very initial steps toward implementation (on a general societal level; it has often been implemented in a more limited way targeted at disfavored minorities where it is a component of genocide by destroying the people as a people) in real societies, even when there is a powerful governing group devoted religiously to an ideology which embraces it.

johnchristopher 5y ago

> send the all the kids to boarding school or military school. It could put them in an environment free from their background circumstances. It is a common meme in some circles that sending (problematic) kids to boarding or military school will "set them straight". To me, it's basically just hope that a bit more violence will work. Also, after 6 years spent in an environment where you are told what to do every minutes, where rules are clear and mostly non-negotiable, bed and meal times always the same... what happens when you are put back in the regular world ? I exaggerate things to make a point, it's not black and white but still.

pnutjam 5y ago
Can confirm. My oldest daughter roomed in College with a girl who came from a structured boarding school. She was a mess. I also recall a similar experience when I was in College.

hellbannedguy 5y ago

JoeAltmaier 5y ago

Once people leave a structured environment (home, boarding school etc) and live 'on their own' even if it's just a dorm room, then tend to act as one who has been leaning against a post, and you take the post away suddenly. It can talk a while for them to stand up straight again - keep their room clean, do their laundry on time, manage their money, wash and dress suitable for the situation. I could always tell in college, which people had not lived on their own before. They were a mess.

cloudedcordial 5y ago

One of the students from my high school, who was orphaned at 11, enrolled himself to the military university. At that school, he got free education, free uniform and free boarding. Every graduates must commit themselves to serve the military for a number of years. He possibly figured out that it's a good way to be independent, to get a quality education and to earn a decent living. That school in my country has not been trivial to get accepted. He aimed for good grades at high school and participated in sports teams.