7 ms·

Looks like there's more competition in the portable headset sphere now, this [0] micro-oled VR headset is already on kickstarter. With that kind of resolution

Looks like there's more competition in the portable headset sphere now, this [0] micro-oled VR headset is already on kickstarter. With that kind of resolution (5120x2560) and lightness (200g), I'd be VERY interested in trying it as a virtual desktop with multiple screens. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/969477673/arpara-worlds-first-5k-micro-oled-all-in-one-vr-headset https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/969477673/arpara-worlds...

devwastaken 5y ago
Sadly at this point I consider anything that isn't already in the hands of consumers to be vaporware. There is little to no guarantee that funding Kickstarters results in tangible products. Typically, they just lie. It's even comical, as highlighted by YouTube series "Kickstarter crap" by idubbz. I wish we had a better system wherein the facilitator of funding, Kickstarter, would require an action plan, goals, dates, and skeptically reviewed the progress and required the claims to be met. Along with limiting initial funding and splitting it into funding rounds based on delivery of the goal plans and proof of tangibility. Or whatever.
- tmikaeld 5y ago
  I had the same reaction, however, there are a lot of review-videos of the production units on their Kickstarter and it looks like it's already in mass-production. I'm not going to back this one though, I'd rather wait for Valve to release a pancake-lens oled headset with proper audio (this one's audio is crap, according to reviews).
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  I understand this viewpoint, but some counter points: 1. We originally tried raising money for this from VCs/angels, and got turned down by everyone. We also tried partnering with other headset manufacturers to help us put Simula on their headsets, and also got turned down/ignored by...everyone. So Kickstarter has allowed us to go direct to consumers to help fund it, which is a pretty cool use of the platform. 2. We're actually going to ship our headsets, leaving an extremely clear paper trail of weekly updates behind us for the duration of the whole project. I know, I know..you can't actually know this for sure just by me claiming it. But basically: we have been working on Simula for years, putting in tons and tons of sweat to get the stable Linux VR compositor we have now. Also: our software is already testable right now on older headsets like the Valve Index and HTC Vive Pro (https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula). We've staked our reputations and life's work into this, and are not going to let it go to waste by failing to ship our headsets. With that said, our upcoming Kickstarter is only the first step in this process. We already have plans for a second headset iteration after this one, which we will start working on after these ship. If you wait for that iteration, you'll have the proof of us shipping the first one, and won't have to wait as long for us to bootstrap the manufacturing process on top of a pre-order campaign =]
  - tmikaeld 5y ago
    I've seen and worked with a fare share of projects that base the mass production in China in the past 20+ years, this is what you can expect: - Sourcing of electronic components vary from day-to-day currently, expect quotes to go from 1x to 5x the actual price. - Plastic moulding is expensive [0], you need injection moulds for every part of the headset and each one of these moulds range from $2K to $20K per part depending entirely on the factory, place of manufacture and the business of choice. Also, use a factory that have frequently do new moulds, because the differences in pressure and precision is something that needs to be dialed in, doing your own moulds and then ship them to China is risky due to differences in implementation methods. - If you do assembly in China, expect every single part to be copied and sold on the Chinese market and to wholesalers that ship out of China, probably even before your kickstarter backers have gotten their initial units. This is even more true for the low-cost factories, which cover their invested costs by selling your IP to larger factories. - Shipping out of China for packages over 3KG is currently very expensive, especially during Corona where shipping by water can take +6 months at the very least. Shipping by Air is even more expensive because prices have exploded 3-5x depending on carrier, but you can ship out in a couple of weeks (depending on volume of goods). Also take into consideration distribution in the US and the EU, both vary greatly and stock can be outright stolen (happened twice for a client that did a Kickstarter with distribution in US). [0] https://www.plastopialtd.com/pricing-guide/ https://www.plastopialtd.com/pricing-guide/
    - kanetw 5y ago
      - We plan to do the MP in Germany or the US, so most doesn't apply. Especially for a first product I do not want to have to deal with a language/culture barrier on top of everything else. - Yep, we have the mold costs factored into our BOM estimates. - Re; distribution, we plan to ship out of our own warehouses directly. DHL Express prices are fairly reasonable if you have a large volume.
      - tmikaeld 5y ago
        I hope my message was deterring, it would be awesome if you succeeded, but it would also be horrible if the effort was wasted and you became bankrupt at the same time. Your plan sounds very doable, especially if you source within EU countries and assemble in-house and use your own warehouse. Best of luck :)
moffkalast 5y ago
> The FOV is 95° at a pupil distance of about 8mm and 90° at a pupil distance of 12mm. Meh, pass. The Index is at 130 degrees and even that looks like you're looking through a pair of toilet paper rolls. Why do they bother going with such high resolution if they don't expand the FoV? It's just gonna chug more with your average mid range graphics card.
- charcircuit 5y ago
  >The Index is at 130 degrees and even that looks like you're looking through a pair of toilet paper rolls. Not even close. The binocular overlap is >0 degrees. It's more like wearing ski goggles. >Why do they bother going with such high resolution if they don't expand the FoV? Because resolution in VR is a big problem since it's being stretched over your whole view. This means that in order to display a virtual 1080p monitor you are going to need a lot more resolution than 1080p to be able to do that. As you starting adding more degrees of FoV you start needing to render more and more pixels due to the distortion.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    Can’t you make your lens so that you have more pixels in the center of vision, and less on the outer edges?
    - kanetw 5y ago
      That's exactly what we do to achieve our 36 PPD figure.
      - moffkalast 5y ago
        Isn't that a problem since you can still move your eyes?
        kanetw 5y ago
        It's accounted for. Eye rotation is not very severe; 86% of saccades are within 15 degrees.
kanetw 5y ago
Worth to note is the display is only 70Hz at 2560p. The "95% light path amplification" for their pancake lenses is also either misleading or an impossibly high transmission figure for pancake optics. Maybe I just misinterpreted this though.
niij 5y ago
Remember that oculus started out on Kickstarter, too. They were sold to Facebook shortly after and are now a privacy nightmare. What a waste of crowd-sourced funds to fill the pockets of a greedy founder. I won't support any crowdfunding projects after that.

devwastaken 5y ago

Sadly at this point I consider anything that isn't already in the hands of consumers to be vaporware. There is little to no guarantee that funding Kickstarters results in tangible products. Typically, they just lie. It's even comical, as highlighted by YouTube series "Kickstarter crap" by idubbz. I wish we had a better system wherein the facilitator of funding, Kickstarter, would require an action plan, goals, dates, and skeptically reviewed the progress and required the claims to be met. Along with limiting initial funding and splitting it into funding rounds based on delivery of the goal plans and proof of tangibility. Or whatever.

tmikaeld 5y ago
I had the same reaction, however, there are a lot of review-videos of the production units on their Kickstarter and it looks like it's already in mass-production. I'm not going to back this one though, I'd rather wait for Valve to release a pancake-lens oled headset with proper audio (this one's audio is crap, according to reviews).
georgewsinger 5y ago
I understand this viewpoint, but some counter points: 1. We originally tried raising money for this from VCs/angels, and got turned down by everyone. We also tried partnering with other headset manufacturers to help us put Simula on their headsets, and also got turned down/ignored by...everyone. So Kickstarter has allowed us to go direct to consumers to help fund it, which is a pretty cool use of the platform. 2. We're actually going to ship our headsets, leaving an extremely clear paper trail of weekly updates behind us for the duration of the whole project. I know, I know..you can't actually know this for sure just by me claiming it. But basically: we have been working on Simula for years, putting in tons and tons of sweat to get the stable Linux VR compositor we have now. Also: our software is already testable right now on older headsets like the Valve Index and HTC Vive Pro (https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula). We've staked our reputations and life's work into this, and are not going to let it go to waste by failing to ship our headsets. With that said, our upcoming Kickstarter is only the first step in this process. We already have plans for a second headset iteration after this one, which we will start working on after these ship. If you wait for that iteration, you'll have the proof of us shipping the first one, and won't have to wait as long for us to bootstrap the manufacturing process on top of a pre-order campaign =]
- tmikaeld 5y ago
  I've seen and worked with a fare share of projects that base the mass production in China in the past 20+ years, this is what you can expect: - Sourcing of electronic components vary from day-to-day currently, expect quotes to go from 1x to 5x the actual price. - Plastic moulding is expensive [0], you need injection moulds for every part of the headset and each one of these moulds range from $2K to $20K per part depending entirely on the factory, place of manufacture and the business of choice. Also, use a factory that have frequently do new moulds, because the differences in pressure and precision is something that needs to be dialed in, doing your own moulds and then ship them to China is risky due to differences in implementation methods. - If you do assembly in China, expect every single part to be copied and sold on the Chinese market and to wholesalers that ship out of China, probably even before your kickstarter backers have gotten their initial units. This is even more true for the low-cost factories, which cover their invested costs by selling your IP to larger factories. - Shipping out of China for packages over 3KG is currently very expensive, especially during Corona where shipping by water can take +6 months at the very least. Shipping by Air is even more expensive because prices have exploded 3-5x depending on carrier, but you can ship out in a couple of weeks (depending on volume of goods). Also take into consideration distribution in the US and the EU, both vary greatly and stock can be outright stolen (happened twice for a client that did a Kickstarter with distribution in US). [0] https://www.plastopialtd.com/pricing-guide/ https://www.plastopialtd.com/pricing-guide/
  - kanetw 5y ago
    - We plan to do the MP in Germany or the US, so most doesn't apply. Especially for a first product I do not want to have to deal with a language/culture barrier on top of everything else. - Yep, we have the mold costs factored into our BOM estimates. - Re; distribution, we plan to ship out of our own warehouses directly. DHL Express prices are fairly reasonable if you have a large volume.
    - tmikaeld 5y ago
      I hope my message was deterring, it would be awesome if you succeeded, but it would also be horrible if the effort was wasted and you became bankrupt at the same time. Your plan sounds very doable, especially if you source within EU countries and assemble in-house and use your own warehouse. Best of luck :)

moffkalast 5y ago

> The FOV is 95° at a pupil distance of about 8mm and 90° at a pupil distance of 12mm. Meh, pass. The Index is at 130 degrees and even that looks like you're looking through a pair of toilet paper rolls. Why do they bother going with such high resolution if they don't expand the FoV? It's just gonna chug more with your average mid range graphics card.

charcircuit 5y ago
>The Index is at 130 degrees and even that looks like you're looking through a pair of toilet paper rolls. Not even close. The binocular overlap is >0 degrees. It's more like wearing ski goggles. >Why do they bother going with such high resolution if they don't expand the FoV? Because resolution in VR is a big problem since it's being stretched over your whole view. This means that in order to display a virtual 1080p monitor you are going to need a lot more resolution than 1080p to be able to do that. As you starting adding more degrees of FoV you start needing to render more and more pixels due to the distortion.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  Can’t you make your lens so that you have more pixels in the center of vision, and less on the outer edges?
  - kanetw 5y ago
    That's exactly what we do to achieve our 36 PPD figure.
    - moffkalast 5y ago
      Isn't that a problem since you can still move your eyes?
      - kanetw 5y ago
        It's accounted for. Eye rotation is not very severe; 86% of saccades are within 15 degrees.

kanetw 5y ago

Worth to note is the display is only 70Hz at 2560p. The "95% light path amplification" for their pancake lenses is also either misleading or an impossibly high transmission figure for pancake optics. Maybe I just misinterpreted this though.

niij 5y ago

Remember that oculus started out on Kickstarter, too. They were sold to Facebook shortly after and are now a privacy nightmare. What a waste of crowd-sourced funds to fill the pockets of a greedy founder. I won't support any crowdfunding projects after that.