7 ms·

> if you're a teenage girl, depending on your culture, your family seems to be peer pressuring you to be a mother Ironically, societies that do not steer girls

> if you're a teenage girl, depending on your culture, your family seems to be peer pressuring you to be a mother Ironically, societies that do not steer girls to parenthood are subject to extinction. I'm not saying it's good or bad. It's just the law of nature.

krapp 5y ago
>Ironically, societies that do not steer girls to parenthood are subject to extinction. Which societies have gone extinct due to this?
- ivanmontillam 5y ago
  I've not seen societies going down for this, but it's easy to see a well-positioned families have one child and financially poor families have 5 or more children. Source: mere observation.
  - drdec 5y ago
    You should extrapolate that out a couple of hundred years and see what happens. Might make a good movie.
    - ivanmontillam 5y ago
      It's already made: "Soylent Green" (1973)
- AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
  I'm not aware of such societies: the whole idea of women not being destined for childbearing is relatively new. Some countries are firmly on the course though: https://www.scb.se/en/About-us/news-and-press-releases/2020-saw-the-lowest-population-growth-in-15-years/ https://www.scb.se/en/About-us/news-and-press-releases/2020-...
  - antupis 5y ago
    About all countries https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53409521 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53409521 there is some exceptions like Nigeria(dropping slowly) but generally fertility rate is dropping all over world.
    - watwut 5y ago
      And none is close to being extinct
    - boeingUH60 5y ago
      I wish fertility drops much harder in Nigeria. We have a very high poverty rate over here (40%) [1], but projections say we'll surpass China in population by 2100 [2]. I dread to think of what'll it'll be like that projection comes to pass. 1- https://databank.worldbank.org/data/download/poverty/987B9C90-CB9F-4D93-AE8C-750588BF00QA/AM2020/Global_POVEQ_NGA.pdf https://databank.worldbank.org/data/download/poverty/987B9C9... 2- https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/top-news/403062-population-nigeria-to-overtake-china-u-s-by-2100-study.html https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/top-news/403062-populati...
  - imtringued 5y ago
    Once you get rid of all the irrational babies (e.g. through unplanned unprotected sex), the rational babies never get born as people notice how "unprofitable" it is to have children.
    - randomdata 5y ago
      Free labour should be quite profitable. Something is going wrong if people aren't noticing the potential profitability of their children.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- sh4un 5y ago
  Just to play devils advocate, they are to extinct to say.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  Plenty of societies went extinct due to population decline, just not particularly recently.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Perhaps look at countries that have been taken over by islam. Many religions have rules for making women have more children, as it is a means of taking over society.
- unsigner 5y ago
  Eastern Europe is firmly on this path under the twin depopulation factors of abysmal fertility and powerful brain drain towards the West. Come visit a middle-sized town anywhere in the Three Seas region and you’ll see industry, infrastructure, housing built for a much larger, more successful civilization.
  - lucian1900 5y ago
    That is due to imposing “shock therapy” and neoliberalism on the populations of the defeated socialist countries as punishment. It has nothing to do with what girls are encouraged to do.
    - ryan93 5y ago
      (guy who has read one book)
      - lucian1900 5y ago
        I’m glad the pillaging of my country is funny to you.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      I personally think the euro is a failure. It only works if every nation cooperates and the nation at the heart of the euro zone (Germany) doesn't play along with the rest. For example, a simple way to make the euro area boom again is to let wages in Germany rise. This will never happen as German politicians think that exporting goods to eastern europe while never importing anything back is sound economics and politics. Some economists point at Say's Law (people sell something because they want to buy something else) which postulates that this behavior should be impossible or at least highly irrational and resolves itself over the long term. Yet for some strange reason Germans have instinctively discovered that money is superior over goods and services and this hasn't changed at all since the euro was introduced. In my opinion, neoliberalism is not really the source of the problem but rather a misguided attempt at serving near endless demand for efficiency and competitiveness. One could argue that the owners of the means of production are themselves just puppets of a higher force. Think about lending a sack of potatoes with interest. If the borrower really needs potatoes today he might accept that offer, but what if he doesn't? Threatened with the prospect of having your potatoes go bad, it is you that is in trouble and therefore must lower the amount of interest that you charge. Even 0% interest may be profitable to you as getting fresh potatoes back next year would be still better than having yours spoil. There is an opportunity cost to doing nothing (spoilage is a effectively a negative interest rate), therefore the negotiations happen in a way that both parties end up happy. Now repeat the exercise with money. As the lender you can always walk away from the deal and collect 0% interest on your cash but as money is necessary for economic specialization (through employment at a company) there will always be a borrower who will take your money. As the lender has the upper hand in these negotiations, he can get away with charging way more interest than he really ought to and we can forget the idea of 0% interest altogether. The end result? People twist their brain into somehow paying that excessive interest. There is your endless demand for efficiency and competitiveness. Of course, thanks to our central banks interest rates do fall, but the potato analogy still isn't true. Once money spoils (negative interest rates), the problem is most likely gone.
- addaon 5y ago
  The Shakers.
Proven 5y ago
andrewjl 5y ago
> It's just the law of nature. Not really, societies aren't natural because they are human constructs.
- math_denial 5y ago
  The fact that something is a social construct does not mean that it is not important and has not rules by which the members of said society have to live by. Money and democracy are social constructs too.
  - andrewjl 5y ago
    I agree that money and democracy are also human or social constructs. Can you clarify what you mean by rules members of society have to live by?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ivanmontillam 5y ago
  Societies aren't human constructs. Bees, lions, ants, meerkats, and many other animals do have societies as well. It just happens ours is more advanced, but it isn't anymore complex than a highly elaborated bee society for instance. What would happen if we'd need to change our Queen Bee Kim Kardashian?
  - andrewjl 5y ago
    There is a qualitative difference between human and animal societies. "One morning, working alone in the attic, I came across some boxes of skeletons that had been dug up from a monastery. I was soon to be reminded of a lecture given by the anthropologist Margaret Mead, who spent much of her life studying primitive culture. She asked the question, What is the earliest sign of civilization?” A clay pot? Iron? Tool? Agriculture? No, she claimed. To her, evidence of the earliest true civilization was a healed femur, a leg bone, which she held up before us in the lecture hall. She explained that such healings were never found in the remains of competitive savage societies, There, clues of violence abounded: temples pierced by arrows, skulls crushed by clubs. But the healed femur showed that someone must have cared for the injured person – hunted on his behalf, brought him food, and served him at personal sacrifice. Savage societies could not afford such pity. I found similar evidence of healing in the bones from the churchyard." from Fearfully and Wonderfully Made
TheGigaChad 5y ago
dan-robertson 5y ago
It’s generally true that as people become richer and better educated, fertility goes down. In the US, I think it’s also true that women have fewer children than they would like (common reason being that it is expensive in absolute terms and opportunity cost) so another question is whether the state should do things to allow people to do the things that both they and the state want.
weregiraffe 5y ago

krapp 5y ago

>Ironically, societies that do not steer girls to parenthood are subject to extinction. Which societies have gone extinct due to this?

ivanmontillam 5y ago
I've not seen societies going down for this, but it's easy to see a well-positioned families have one child and financially poor families have 5 or more children. Source: mere observation.
- drdec 5y ago
  You should extrapolate that out a couple of hundred years and see what happens. Might make a good movie.
  - ivanmontillam 5y ago
    It's already made: "Soylent Green" (1973)
AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
I'm not aware of such societies: the whole idea of women not being destined for childbearing is relatively new. Some countries are firmly on the course though: https://www.scb.se/en/About-us/news-and-press-releases/2020-saw-the-lowest-population-growth-in-15-years/ https://www.scb.se/en/About-us/news-and-press-releases/2020-...
- antupis 5y ago
  About all countries https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53409521 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53409521 there is some exceptions like Nigeria(dropping slowly) but generally fertility rate is dropping all over world.
  - watwut 5y ago
    And none is close to being extinct
  - boeingUH60 5y ago
    I wish fertility drops much harder in Nigeria. We have a very high poverty rate over here (40%) [1], but projections say we'll surpass China in population by 2100 [2]. I dread to think of what'll it'll be like that projection comes to pass. 1- https://databank.worldbank.org/data/download/poverty/987B9C90-CB9F-4D93-AE8C-750588BF00QA/AM2020/Global_POVEQ_NGA.pdf https://databank.worldbank.org/data/download/poverty/987B9C9... 2- https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/top-news/403062-population-nigeria-to-overtake-china-u-s-by-2100-study.html https://www.premiumtimesng.com/news/top-news/403062-populati...
- imtringued 5y ago
  Once you get rid of all the irrational babies (e.g. through unplanned unprotected sex), the rational babies never get born as people notice how "unprofitable" it is to have children.
  - randomdata 5y ago
    Free labour should be quite profitable. Something is going wrong if people aren't noticing the potential profitability of their children.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sh4un 5y ago
Just to play devils advocate, they are to extinct to say.
colechristensen 5y ago
Plenty of societies went extinct due to population decline, just not particularly recently.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
Perhaps look at countries that have been taken over by islam. Many religions have rules for making women have more children, as it is a means of taking over society.
unsigner 5y ago
Eastern Europe is firmly on this path under the twin depopulation factors of abysmal fertility and powerful brain drain towards the West. Come visit a middle-sized town anywhere in the Three Seas region and you’ll see industry, infrastructure, housing built for a much larger, more successful civilization.
- lucian1900 5y ago
  That is due to imposing “shock therapy” and neoliberalism on the populations of the defeated socialist countries as punishment. It has nothing to do with what girls are encouraged to do.
  - ryan93 5y ago
    (guy who has read one book)
    - lucian1900 5y ago
      I’m glad the pillaging of my country is funny to you.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    I personally think the euro is a failure. It only works if every nation cooperates and the nation at the heart of the euro zone (Germany) doesn't play along with the rest. For example, a simple way to make the euro area boom again is to let wages in Germany rise. This will never happen as German politicians think that exporting goods to eastern europe while never importing anything back is sound economics and politics. Some economists point at Say's Law (people sell something because they want to buy something else) which postulates that this behavior should be impossible or at least highly irrational and resolves itself over the long term. Yet for some strange reason Germans have instinctively discovered that money is superior over goods and services and this hasn't changed at all since the euro was introduced. In my opinion, neoliberalism is not really the source of the problem but rather a misguided attempt at serving near endless demand for efficiency and competitiveness. One could argue that the owners of the means of production are themselves just puppets of a higher force. Think about lending a sack of potatoes with interest. If the borrower really needs potatoes today he might accept that offer, but what if he doesn't? Threatened with the prospect of having your potatoes go bad, it is you that is in trouble and therefore must lower the amount of interest that you charge. Even 0% interest may be profitable to you as getting fresh potatoes back next year would be still better than having yours spoil. There is an opportunity cost to doing nothing (spoilage is a effectively a negative interest rate), therefore the negotiations happen in a way that both parties end up happy. Now repeat the exercise with money. As the lender you can always walk away from the deal and collect 0% interest on your cash but as money is necessary for economic specialization (through employment at a company) there will always be a borrower who will take your money. As the lender has the upper hand in these negotiations, he can get away with charging way more interest than he really ought to and we can forget the idea of 0% interest altogether. The end result? People twist their brain into somehow paying that excessive interest. There is your endless demand for efficiency and competitiveness. Of course, thanks to our central banks interest rates do fall, but the potato analogy still isn't true. Once money spoils (negative interest rates), the problem is most likely gone.
addaon 5y ago
The Shakers.

Proven 5y ago

andrewjl 5y ago

> It's just the law of nature. Not really, societies aren't natural because they are human constructs.

math_denial 5y ago
The fact that something is a social construct does not mean that it is not important and has not rules by which the members of said society have to live by. Money and democracy are social constructs too.
- andrewjl 5y ago
  I agree that money and democracy are also human or social constructs. Can you clarify what you mean by rules members of society have to live by?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ivanmontillam 5y ago
Societies aren't human constructs. Bees, lions, ants, meerkats, and many other animals do have societies as well. It just happens ours is more advanced, but it isn't anymore complex than a highly elaborated bee society for instance. What would happen if we'd need to change our Queen Bee Kim Kardashian?
- andrewjl 5y ago
  There is a qualitative difference between human and animal societies. "One morning, working alone in the attic, I came across some boxes of skeletons that had been dug up from a monastery. I was soon to be reminded of a lecture given by the anthropologist Margaret Mead, who spent much of her life studying primitive culture. She asked the question, What is the earliest sign of civilization?” A clay pot? Iron? Tool? Agriculture? No, she claimed. To her, evidence of the earliest true civilization was a healed femur, a leg bone, which she held up before us in the lecture hall. She explained that such healings were never found in the remains of competitive savage societies, There, clues of violence abounded: temples pierced by arrows, skulls crushed by clubs. But the healed femur showed that someone must have cared for the injured person – hunted on his behalf, brought him food, and served him at personal sacrifice. Savage societies could not afford such pity. I found similar evidence of healing in the bones from the churchyard." from Fearfully and Wonderfully Made

TheGigaChad 5y ago

dan-robertson 5y ago

It’s generally true that as people become richer and better educated, fertility goes down. In the US, I think it’s also true that women have fewer children than they would like (common reason being that it is expensive in absolute terms and opportunity cost) so another question is whether the state should do things to allow people to do the things that both they and the state want.

weregiraffe 5y ago