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Having spent time in several East-Asian countries how masks during a pandemic became some political hot topic in some places still confuses the hell out of me.

colechristensen 5y ago
Japan is a very conformity based society which has plenty of its own problems, just not this one. Countries often have a broad common ethos which are quite variable around the world and each has its strengths and weaknesses. Americans quite like splitting into factions, telling the other factions what the moral imperatives of the day are, and rebelling against what other factions tell them to do. It is a part of a somewhat broken sense of anti authoritarian bent which doesn’t recognize that authoritarian actions by your own group are equally problematic. Just a signal that once quite good ideology is degrading into something a bit strange, mostly just because of how information is distributed and education done.
- labster 5y ago
  The problem in America is that the other side really doesn’t believe in American values, but instead wants to take away our constitutional freedoms. They preach a hypocritical sense of morality while inflicting violence on those who cannot defend themselves. They use gerrymandering and political tricks to hold on to power, even when most people hate what they’re doing. Because of their incompetence, we’ve become a laughingstock on the world stage. And their response to the coronavirus could not be more misguided or dangerous. And almost all Americans agree with this, because I didn’t actually name a political party. If there’s one thing that brings Americans together, it’s knowing that the other half is pure evil.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
    I would disagree that there is a side that doesn’t believe in American values. American values are instead being interpreted in disagreeing ways, and are being applied to different circumstances. (For example, the sovereign citizen movement clearly at least attempts to take on aspects of the American constitution, and interprets them very differently to the court system.)
    - fivea 5y ago
      > I would disagree that there is a side that doesn’t believe in American values. As an outsider, one of the US's core values is democracy and the democratic process. Given the current push to undermine it, and the recent coup attempt intended to overthrow a democratically elected representative to install an authoritarian despot, and given the current level of support given to this dictatorial push, I have to say that from an outsider's perspective one side of America's political establishment clearly does not believe in American values.
      - readflaggedcomm 5y ago
        Consider that the information you get could be one-sided because the major platforms ban dissenting views (in cooperation with partisan NGOs identifying it).
        fivea 5y ago
        > Consider that the information you get could be one-sided because the major platforms ban dissenting views (in cooperation with partisan NGOs identifying it). Could you please explain how exactly the recent coup attempt intended to overthrow a democratically elected representative to install an authoritarian despot is not profoundly anti-democratic and thus anti-american, or how the coup was just a reflection of a "one-sided" coverage by the media? Regardless of how dissenting your view is, a coup to overthrow a democratically elected representative is still a coup.
      - jollybean 5y ago
        Indeed I'm inclined to agree, however, may of those folks literally believe the election was stolen. Which is false of course, but consider how you would react if there were serious election irregularities, and your current PM/President was effectively a pretender? A lot of people angry about the election are, at least superficially, acting in 'good faith'. They think they are fighting 'for democracy'. Don't discount how segregated US information clearing is - I was visiting a family member today and heard some of their Facebook feed videos, it was totally shocking. This person does not absorb any kind of mainstream news information. All day every day, they hear misinformation about vaccines and the election, so it becomes easier to understand how they believe nonsense. One particular video, from an Irish Politician and MD no less, made claims that Omicron was 'just the flu' etc. and deferred to both the Irish government and Medical System for legitimacy. It was a very convincing video that I suggest most regular people would be moved by it, even though to a keen observer it was clear they were lying. Indeed, the very article upon which we are commenting is hard to parse, to the point where in the interest of Public Good I wish all of these articles had some kind of translation for us plebes, at least during a pandemic where in it's a 'war of information'.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    So which side are you talking about? --- "Take away our constitutional freedoms." Right now, who is ordering who to stay home, to not go to the gym, to church, to a restaurant, to a private gathering - by force of law - and even imposing curfews? For context, these might be some of the most broad and assertive challenges ever made on constitutional freedoms. --- "They preach a hypocritical sense of morality while inflicting violence on those who cannot defend themselves." There is one group of people in America who are killing themselves at 6x the rate of other Americans, and about 20x the rate of people of other countries. They have hypocritically 'blamed' (at least in terms of populism) the issue on policing, which is very demonstrably not a direct cause, requiring police to pull back in many areas, and now we see the result, a 150% increase in violence among those same poor and vulnerable communities, that were already extremely violent. The major increase in lives lost is directly measurable in the thousands. The #1 cause of death among this group, is violence from their own group. Not 'some other group' assaulting them. --- "They use gerrymandering and political tricks to hold on to power" One group is trying to give voting rights to huge numbers of non-citizens at every level of government, because that group feels the new voters would vote for them, which is in terms of raw numbers, the most gigantic form of election gerrymandering ever conceived. --- "Because of their incompetence, we’ve become a laughingstock on the world stage. " New York, New Jersey, New Hampshire etc. are some of the worst hit by COVID in terms of deaths per capita, as for 'laughing stock' the Governor went down on sexual assault allegations, and charges of misrepresenting COVID information. Despite the careless populist rhetoric of some political fools, frankly, there isn't much of a serious political pattern across the nation in terms of outcomes - there's a pretty big 'obesity' pattern, which correlates strongly with race, but it also points to an issue in America overall vis-a-vis the rest of the world (i.e. obesity). But that isn't really a politically 'sided' issue so much. ... I think you really did make the OP's point by pointing out how 'each side likes to blame the other' - I couldn't even fathom who you were talking about for sure. However much I personally might support mask, separation and other restrictions, it's pretty oddly lacking in self awareness to talk about the 'Authoritarianism Of The Other Side' when literally politicians are ordering the most assertive transgressions of basic rights in history however legitimized or not. As for Omicron ... we really don't know yet. Maybe this is the last real lockdown wave before lethality, treatments and vaccines provide enough protection.
cplusplusfellow 5y ago
It’s less confusing to me because I specifically do not want to live in a society where people willingly cover half their face. And I most particularly have no interest in living in a country where I am shamed, ridiculed, or outcast for not doing so as well. Im ok with the repercussions that society may face (eg, higher covid counts etc) to avoid such a society. Call me a monster but I want my daughter to know a world much more similar to what I knew 2 years ago than the one in black mirror, which I believe we tend to be accelerating towards.
- smt88 5y ago
  The masking is temporary and in limited situations. People don't think you're a monster for not wearing one, they think you're a selfish baby.
  - leishman 5y ago
    There’s nothing selfish about not wearing a mask if vaccines are safe and effective.
    - forgotmyoldname 5y ago
      It's like saying you don't need to wash your hands because the food is cooked and hot.
    - fivea 5y ago
      > There’s nothing selfish about not wearing a mask if vaccines are safe and effective. If you really want to parrot that line, the very least you need to do is get informed about the issue you're trying to discuss. Vaccines are safe and effective in training your immune system to handle a COVID-19 infection. That's how vaccines work. They are not, nor they ever were, a silver bullet that stops everyone from catching the disease and transmitting it to everyone the come across. To put it very clearly and unambiguously to you, vaccines don't stop the virus from spreading, they only improve your chances of not dying from it. Also, it's disingenuous to pretend that the current generation of vaccines, which was developed for the original Wuhan strain, also have the same effectiveness against subsequent strains such as the Delta and now Omicron strains. Your blend of vocal ignorance is tiring. It feels like you're arguing in bad faith. A brief one-minute read on the topic is enough to clear up any possible misconception regarding the topic. Is that too much to ask?

colechristensen 5y ago

Japan is a very conformity based society which has plenty of its own problems, just not this one. Countries often have a broad common ethos which are quite variable around the world and each has its strengths and weaknesses. Americans quite like splitting into factions, telling the other factions what the moral imperatives of the day are, and rebelling against what other factions tell them to do. It is a part of a somewhat broken sense of anti authoritarian bent which doesn’t recognize that authoritarian actions by your own group are equally problematic. Just a signal that once quite good ideology is degrading into something a bit strange, mostly just because of how information is distributed and education done.

labster 5y ago
The problem in America is that the other side really doesn’t believe in American values, but instead wants to take away our constitutional freedoms. They preach a hypocritical sense of morality while inflicting violence on those who cannot defend themselves. They use gerrymandering and political tricks to hold on to power, even when most people hate what they’re doing. Because of their incompetence, we’ve become a laughingstock on the world stage. And their response to the coronavirus could not be more misguided or dangerous. And almost all Americans agree with this, because I didn’t actually name a political party. If there’s one thing that brings Americans together, it’s knowing that the other half is pure evil.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  I would disagree that there is a side that doesn’t believe in American values. American values are instead being interpreted in disagreeing ways, and are being applied to different circumstances. (For example, the sovereign citizen movement clearly at least attempts to take on aspects of the American constitution, and interprets them very differently to the court system.)
  - fivea 5y ago
    > I would disagree that there is a side that doesn’t believe in American values. As an outsider, one of the US's core values is democracy and the democratic process. Given the current push to undermine it, and the recent coup attempt intended to overthrow a democratically elected representative to install an authoritarian despot, and given the current level of support given to this dictatorial push, I have to say that from an outsider's perspective one side of America's political establishment clearly does not believe in American values.
    - readflaggedcomm 5y ago
      Consider that the information you get could be one-sided because the major platforms ban dissenting views (in cooperation with partisan NGOs identifying it).
      - fivea 5y ago
        > Consider that the information you get could be one-sided because the major platforms ban dissenting views (in cooperation with partisan NGOs identifying it). Could you please explain how exactly the recent coup attempt intended to overthrow a democratically elected representative to install an authoritarian despot is not profoundly anti-democratic and thus anti-american, or how the coup was just a reflection of a "one-sided" coverage by the media? Regardless of how dissenting your view is, a coup to overthrow a democratically elected representative is still a coup.
    - jollybean 5y ago
      Indeed I'm inclined to agree, however, may of those folks literally believe the election was stolen. Which is false of course, but consider how you would react if there were serious election irregularities, and your current PM/President was effectively a pretender? A lot of people angry about the election are, at least superficially, acting in 'good faith'. They think they are fighting 'for democracy'. Don't discount how segregated US information clearing is - I was visiting a family member today and heard some of their Facebook feed videos, it was totally shocking. This person does not absorb any kind of mainstream news information. All day every day, they hear misinformation about vaccines and the election, so it becomes easier to understand how they believe nonsense. One particular video, from an Irish Politician and MD no less, made claims that Omicron was 'just the flu' etc. and deferred to both the Irish government and Medical System for legitimacy. It was a very convincing video that I suggest most regular people would be moved by it, even though to a keen observer it was clear they were lying. Indeed, the very article upon which we are commenting is hard to parse, to the point where in the interest of Public Good I wish all of these articles had some kind of translation for us plebes, at least during a pandemic where in it's a 'war of information'.
- jollybean 5y ago
  So which side are you talking about? --- "Take away our constitutional freedoms." Right now, who is ordering who to stay home, to not go to the gym, to church, to a restaurant, to a private gathering - by force of law - and even imposing curfews? For context, these might be some of the most broad and assertive challenges ever made on constitutional freedoms. --- "They preach a hypocritical sense of morality while inflicting violence on those who cannot defend themselves." There is one group of people in America who are killing themselves at 6x the rate of other Americans, and about 20x the rate of people of other countries. They have hypocritically 'blamed' (at least in terms of populism) the issue on policing, which is very demonstrably not a direct cause, requiring police to pull back in many areas, and now we see the result, a 150% increase in violence among those same poor and vulnerable communities, that were already extremely violent. The major increase in lives lost is directly measurable in the thousands. The #1 cause of death among this group, is violence from their own group. Not 'some other group' assaulting them. --- "They use gerrymandering and political tricks to hold on to power" One group is trying to give voting rights to huge numbers of non-citizens at every level of government, because that group feels the new voters would vote for them, which is in terms of raw numbers, the most gigantic form of election gerrymandering ever conceived. --- "Because of their incompetence, we’ve become a laughingstock on the world stage. " New York, New Jersey, New Hampshire etc. are some of the worst hit by COVID in terms of deaths per capita, as for 'laughing stock' the Governor went down on sexual assault allegations, and charges of misrepresenting COVID information. Despite the careless populist rhetoric of some political fools, frankly, there isn't much of a serious political pattern across the nation in terms of outcomes - there's a pretty big 'obesity' pattern, which correlates strongly with race, but it also points to an issue in America overall vis-a-vis the rest of the world (i.e. obesity). But that isn't really a politically 'sided' issue so much. ... I think you really did make the OP's point by pointing out how 'each side likes to blame the other' - I couldn't even fathom who you were talking about for sure. However much I personally might support mask, separation and other restrictions, it's pretty oddly lacking in self awareness to talk about the 'Authoritarianism Of The Other Side' when literally politicians are ordering the most assertive transgressions of basic rights in history however legitimized or not. As for Omicron ... we really don't know yet. Maybe this is the last real lockdown wave before lethality, treatments and vaccines provide enough protection.

cplusplusfellow 5y ago

It’s less confusing to me because I specifically do not want to live in a society where people willingly cover half their face. And I most particularly have no interest in living in a country where I am shamed, ridiculed, or outcast for not doing so as well. Im ok with the repercussions that society may face (eg, higher covid counts etc) to avoid such a society. Call me a monster but I want my daughter to know a world much more similar to what I knew 2 years ago than the one in black mirror, which I believe we tend to be accelerating towards.

smt88 5y ago
The masking is temporary and in limited situations. People don't think you're a monster for not wearing one, they think you're a selfish baby.
- leishman 5y ago
  There’s nothing selfish about not wearing a mask if vaccines are safe and effective.
  - forgotmyoldname 5y ago
    It's like saying you don't need to wash your hands because the food is cooked and hot.
  - fivea 5y ago
    > There’s nothing selfish about not wearing a mask if vaccines are safe and effective. If you really want to parrot that line, the very least you need to do is get informed about the issue you're trying to discuss. Vaccines are safe and effective in training your immune system to handle a COVID-19 infection. That's how vaccines work. They are not, nor they ever were, a silver bullet that stops everyone from catching the disease and transmitting it to everyone the come across. To put it very clearly and unambiguously to you, vaccines don't stop the virus from spreading, they only improve your chances of not dying from it. Also, it's disingenuous to pretend that the current generation of vaccines, which was developed for the original Wuhan strain, also have the same effectiveness against subsequent strains such as the Delta and now Omicron strains. Your blend of vocal ignorance is tiring. It feels like you're arguing in bad faith. A brief one-minute read on the topic is enough to clear up any possible misconception regarding the topic. Is that too much to ask?