5 ms·

Nothing new. This has been common in the US for decades. I'm actually rather surprised that this is new for Japan, which has a mature defense industry. They

Nothing new. This has been common in the US for decades. I'm actually rather surprised that this is new for Japan, which has a mature defense industry. They even produce their own air-to-air missiles, tech right at the heart of the matter. https://www.upcounsel.com/classified-patents https://www.upcounsel.com/classified-patents "In 2017, the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) reported statistics that there were over 5,700 classified patents held by the United States government. These inventions are highly guarded under sensitive secrecy orders. The public may never know more about these classified inventions, but some once-secret patents included a laser-tracking system, a stronger net, and a warhead-production method. Invention secrecy dates back to the 1930s, but exploded in the 1940s when nuclear weapon development became a highly classified topic. Under the Invention Secrecy Act of 1951, federal law prevented the disclosure of new technologies and inventions that may present a national security threat to the United States."

roblabla 5y ago
Wait, what's the point of a secret patent though? Like I get the point of keeping military innovations secret, but patents are supposed to be a trade where the government offers a limited-time monopoly on a technology, in exchange for making the secret sauce of said technology public. If I re-invent/re-discover the tech behind a secret patent, can I be sued for patent infringement, despite the patent being non-public? What's the point of granting patents for this?
- hn8788 5y ago
  I forget where I read it, but my understanding is that the secret patent would become public if you try to publicly patent it. I don't know if there would be any compensation for you, but I don't think you'd have to deal with patent infringement.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    Iirc this happened with encryption schemes. RSA maybe?
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    Yeah, you just have to deal with sunk costs and an IP rugpull. Great. I bet they don't even refund the patent fees.
  - bdowling 5y ago
    It's illegal for a US inventor to file a patent application in a foreign country without either (a) obtaining a foreign filing license first, or (b) applying for a US patent and waiting at least 6 months. [0] The idea there is to give the Patent Office a chance to review the invention for national security. [0] https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s140.html https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s140.html
- sandworm101 5y ago
  They aren't totally secret. Other companies in the field know about and can see them. The patents are just not made as public as normal patents. So friendly companies, those with the appropriate security clearances, still benefit from the shared knowledge. If, sitting in your garage/basement, you invent a tech covered by a secret patent then you will be getting a job offer. If you market that tech then you will probably be arrested for dealing in weapons or other heavily-controlled material. Building missile guidance systems or uranium enrichment centrifuges is not something done by home tinkerers.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    >"If, sitting in your garage/basement, you invent a tech covered by a secret patent then you will be getting a job offer." Or being told to shut up and get lost. And can't sue back because the lawsuit will be dismissed on the basis of national security.
    - dylan604 5y ago
      Or knocks on the door from a couple of agents informing you that you are doing something you should not be doing as a private individual. Surely, if you are, you must be a subversive which is the total point of the conversation you'd be having.
      - FpUser 5y ago
        >"Surely, if you are, you must be a subversive" You sound like KGB. Person can invent tech for what them thinks is a totally peaceful purpose and have no idea that it has high military value in some specific field. Fucking witch hunt attitude.
    - seoaeu 5y ago
      I mean, if you're developing a missile guidance system or something that you do not intend to be used by your country's military, then I'd hope you have a very good explanation of who you do intend to use said technology. And if not, "shut up and get lost" seems like a pretty mild reaction...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- lumost 5y ago
  If a Lockheed engineer spontaneously discovers a defense technology, Lockheed can patent the tech and try to sell it independently or license the patent to another firm. Some government contracts will assign such spontaneous discoveries to the government with some incentive on the contract for patents produced. Without the patent system, some discoveries would simply be forgotten about or remain in one engineers head - unfortunately the patent world has become fairly bloated with minimally inventive discoveries being written up by lawyers.
Brybry 5y ago
Japan is a bit different in that its constitution renounces the ability to make war[1], including maintaining forces to make war. They sidestep around the issue (probably a bit illegally) with their self-defense forces but there are some purely offensive technologies, like nuclear weapons, that even that sidestepping has yet managed to work around. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Cons...
- skhr0680 5y ago
  Japanese politicians in the past have made the case that having a nuclear deterrent would be legal, and the country has the material, tools, and knowledge to build a MIRV ICBM immediately if TSHTF. In general, the population is against war and nuclear weapons because of what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I think that would change quickly if China invades Taiwan (for example).
  - cryptonector 5y ago
    Not only that, but Japan and South Korea, and a few other nations, have (and long have had) the ability to assemble working nukes in very little time because the hard part they have already solved: making weapons grade fuel. I mean, there's a famous nuclear accident in Japan where some workers mixed too much plutonium solution in buckets and it went critical, and that was in the 70s. They have tons of plutonium from breeding reactors. They almost certainly have designs for nuclear devices, and probably even a stockpile of parts. It would be a matter of months to assemble them and the fuel.
- emilfihlman 5y ago
  >purely offensive technologies, like nuclear weapons This is absolutely not true. Nuclear weapons have many non-weapon usages, and they would be really good for those, too. Like excavations, shutting down runaway oil well fires, protecting against stuff striking earth, etc.
  - tapas73 5y ago
trasz 5y ago
Those patents are obviously void outside the country, though.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

roblabla 5y ago

Wait, what's the point of a secret patent though? Like I get the point of keeping military innovations secret, but patents are supposed to be a trade where the government offers a limited-time monopoly on a technology, in exchange for making the secret sauce of said technology public. If I re-invent/re-discover the tech behind a secret patent, can I be sued for patent infringement, despite the patent being non-public? What's the point of granting patents for this?

hn8788 5y ago
I forget where I read it, but my understanding is that the secret patent would become public if you try to publicly patent it. I don't know if there would be any compensation for you, but I don't think you'd have to deal with patent infringement.
- dnautics 5y ago
  Iirc this happened with encryption schemes. RSA maybe?
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Yeah, you just have to deal with sunk costs and an IP rugpull. Great. I bet they don't even refund the patent fees.
- bdowling 5y ago
  It's illegal for a US inventor to file a patent application in a foreign country without either (a) obtaining a foreign filing license first, or (b) applying for a US patent and waiting at least 6 months. [0] The idea there is to give the Patent Office a chance to review the invention for national security. [0] https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s140.html https://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s140.html
sandworm101 5y ago
They aren't totally secret. Other companies in the field know about and can see them. The patents are just not made as public as normal patents. So friendly companies, those with the appropriate security clearances, still benefit from the shared knowledge. If, sitting in your garage/basement, you invent a tech covered by a secret patent then you will be getting a job offer. If you market that tech then you will probably be arrested for dealing in weapons or other heavily-controlled material. Building missile guidance systems or uranium enrichment centrifuges is not something done by home tinkerers.
- FpUser 5y ago
  >"If, sitting in your garage/basement, you invent a tech covered by a secret patent then you will be getting a job offer." Or being told to shut up and get lost. And can't sue back because the lawsuit will be dismissed on the basis of national security.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    Or knocks on the door from a couple of agents informing you that you are doing something you should not be doing as a private individual. Surely, if you are, you must be a subversive which is the total point of the conversation you'd be having.
    - FpUser 5y ago
      >"Surely, if you are, you must be a subversive" You sound like KGB. Person can invent tech for what them thinks is a totally peaceful purpose and have no idea that it has high military value in some specific field. Fucking witch hunt attitude.
  - seoaeu 5y ago
    I mean, if you're developing a missile guidance system or something that you do not intend to be used by your country's military, then I'd hope you have a very good explanation of who you do intend to use said technology. And if not, "shut up and get lost" seems like a pretty mild reaction...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lumost 5y ago
If a Lockheed engineer spontaneously discovers a defense technology, Lockheed can patent the tech and try to sell it independently or license the patent to another firm. Some government contracts will assign such spontaneous discoveries to the government with some incentive on the contract for patents produced. Without the patent system, some discoveries would simply be forgotten about or remain in one engineers head - unfortunately the patent world has become fairly bloated with minimally inventive discoveries being written up by lawyers.

Brybry 5y ago

Japan is a bit different in that its constitution renounces the ability to make war[1], including maintaining forces to make war. They sidestep around the issue (probably a bit illegally) with their self-defense forces but there are some purely offensive technologies, like nuclear weapons, that even that sidestepping has yet managed to work around. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Cons...

skhr0680 5y ago
Japanese politicians in the past have made the case that having a nuclear deterrent would be legal, and the country has the material, tools, and knowledge to build a MIRV ICBM immediately if TSHTF. In general, the population is against war and nuclear weapons because of what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I think that would change quickly if China invades Taiwan (for example).
- cryptonector 5y ago
  Not only that, but Japan and South Korea, and a few other nations, have (and long have had) the ability to assemble working nukes in very little time because the hard part they have already solved: making weapons grade fuel. I mean, there's a famous nuclear accident in Japan where some workers mixed too much plutonium solution in buckets and it went critical, and that was in the 70s. They have tons of plutonium from breeding reactors. They almost certainly have designs for nuclear devices, and probably even a stockpile of parts. It would be a matter of months to assemble them and the fuel.
emilfihlman 5y ago
>purely offensive technologies, like nuclear weapons This is absolutely not true. Nuclear weapons have many non-weapon usages, and they would be really good for those, too. Like excavations, shutting down runaway oil well fires, protecting against stuff striking earth, etc.
- tapas73 5y ago

trasz 5y ago

Those patents are obviously void outside the country, though.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]