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This is the thing about teslas. They're very anti-repair. I would never in my life buy a car that can only be fixed in official company-licensed shops. I have

by cptaj 5y ago

This is the thing about teslas. They're very anti-repair. I would never in my life buy a car that can only be fixed in official company-licensed shops. I have never gone to one of these overpriced shitholes in my entire car-owning life.

dotancohen 5y ago
Does GM fix Corvettes that have had LS swaps? Does Ford fix Mustangs with third-party crate engines? This was a privately-imported US-spec Tesla with a non-OEM battery, being driven in a country in which almost all vehicles have special cold-weather packages. That is especially important on lithium batteries.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Most US dealerships will service any make or model of car. Most of them sell used cars of a variety of makes, and will gladly take the business to service them.
- eloff 5y ago
  I think the problem is not so much that they won't fix it, which is reasonable, but that they don't give you any alternatives.
  - ajross 5y ago
    What "alternatives" would you to be given? It's not Tesla's job to fund outfits to make replacement batteries. If no one is making them then no one is making them.
    - eloff 5y ago
      To be clear, I mean you can't service your car at a third party location with Tesla.
      - josephcsible 5y ago
        You can get some things, but not everything, on Teslas serviced at third party locations. Are there any car companies that make every single part and diagnostic tool available to third parties? If so, which ones?
        eloff 5y ago
        I'm not sure to be honest, it's a big issue these days that car companies lock third parties or of the computer systems and diagnostics. Right to repair seems fundamental to something as expensive and long lived as a car.
        gamblor956 5y ago
        Are there any car companies that make every single part and diagnostic tool available to third parties? If so, which ones? Ford, Toyota, GM, etc. Pretty much all non-luxury brands make all part listings and parts available (either directly, or through a designated parts supplier). External companies actually make a lot of the parts for these automakers and you can buy directly from those suppliers if you know the part number, and aftermarket alternatives are available for almost every OEM part. It is possible to rebuild most Ford, Toyota, and GM vehicles with parts acquired through purchase. Some automakers make diagnostic tools available to anyone, but most limit the availability to certified mechanics. However, anyone can attempt to get certification.
        ajross 5y ago
        Per the question at hand: can you order a main battery pack for a Mach-E or Bolt? Genuine question. I'm pretty sure the answer is "no", but would be interested to find out.
        gamblor956 5y ago
        Yes, through a certified mechanic. Unlike Tesla, the other automakers make sure there is stock on hand for repairs before they release cars, which is part of why they appear to have reduced EV construction capabilities.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    Neither GM nor Ford give you any alternatives either. For the capitalists out there, "the market" should be giving you the alternatives. And the market delivers, at least in the market where this particular Tesla was originally sold: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7Q0nNkQTCo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7Q0nNkQTCo
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- alphabettsy 5y ago
  Yea, actually they do. Assuming your swap doesn’t break the diagnostics I haven’t come across a dealership mechanic that would just refuse. You can even bring your Mustang to a GM dealer.
- Ancapistani 5y ago
  Yes, on both counts. My daily driver is a 2000 Jeep Wrangler. The rear axle was damaged when I bought it, and I replaced it with a Ford 8.8” axle assembly and fabricated my own adapters for it. A few weeks ago the parking brake stopped working correctly and I didn’t have time to fix it myself, so I dropped it off at a local dealership. They had no trouble repairing it, despite the fact that my Jeep came ORM with rear drum brakes and now has disc brakes on the rear.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    The Ford axle swap is great, but to am 8.8?!? I thought that the Ford 9" swap was popular enough to be a factory option already )). I'm actually surprised that they did the work, that might have been technician-dependent. I'm assuming that you've got Ford calipers and rotors? Did you bring to them the parts yourself?
josephcsible 5y ago
I agree being anti-repair is bad, but what car manufacturer isn't at least somewhat anti-repair? Or do you never plan to buy a car at all? Also, isn't Tesla significantly better than most manufacturers in this regard, in that everything but the high-voltage system has parts available for anyone to repair?
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  While I agree with what you say, the reason I find the current situation completely wrong is that I remember it used to be very different. I remember the times when people were fixing their own cars. Granted, certain aspects became complex and should probably be fixed by authorized service for the sake of safety of passengers, but you have to admit things went way too far.
  - notreallyserio 5y ago
    While it's possibly unfortunate that it's harder for me to work on my Honda, it's nice that it's so reliable I don't have to. From what I've heard Teslas are kind of the worst of both worlds.
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      Can you point to a statistic that says Honda is more reliable than Tesla?
      - lordloki 5y ago
        Consumer reports rankings: https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-lexus-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-lincoln-the-least/ https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-lexus-makes-th...
      - notreallyserio 5y ago
        Sure: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-reliability-model-s-3-x-y-consumer-reports-satisfaction-2021-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-reliability-model-s-3-... (links to the source, but it's behind a pay wall). There's a whole bunch of anecdotes on reddit that should give anyone pause: https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/q8ovdc/how_reliable_are_teslas_actually/ https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/q8ovdc/how_rel... Do you have statistics to the contrary? Even here on HN we have folks that defend Tesla in the face of serious problems like phantom braking while I've never heard of that happening with a Honda. Does it? (Someone here said it wasn't a problem because it "only" happened 7 or 8 times on a road trip, lol.)
Jansen312 5y ago
Many pro-green or geeks love Tesla yet don't realize it is overpriced and has huge delayed negative externalities like worn batteries and non-repairable. We already have better alternatives than Tesla for decades...called "Toyota". Cheaper to buy and maintain. Quality is superb. If I want to test drive Tesla, now we know where to rent it.
- notreallyserio 5y ago
  It be sweet if Toyota sold 100% electric vehicles with ~300 mile range. They wouldn't be able to keep them in stock.
  - speedgoose 5y ago
    Yes but they did bet on Hydrogen and lost and were in denial for way too long. In my opinion, their best EV today is a rebadged Citroën van. Their Lexus ev is a shame.
- Glawen 5y ago
  What is the deal with Toyota? They never really sold a lot of cars here in Europe, but used beaten up Toyota are worth their weight of gold. It seems like a cult. Every manufacturer is capable of making quality cars, you just have to choose the correct model.
  - adventured 5y ago
    Toyotas, if maintained reasonably, run very well for a very long time. Their Lexus brand also routinely comes in near the top in reliability. They've earned the enormous credibility they have on reliability. That's the reason their used vehicles are so desirable, you know the vehicle is likely to have a lot of life left in it if you take care of it (ie you'll more than get your money out of it).
    - Glawen 5y ago
      Thing is their diesel in Europe offerings were far from stellar reliability wise. I seriously looked into used gasoline Toyota but found out many engines had a gasket issue. In the end I bought a Renault, knowing that it might have issues but so far nothing happened.
ajross 5y ago
Your complaint here isn't about repair, it's that battery chemistry isn't a user-servicable component[1]. You have to buy a battery from someone. It turns out that packs are complicated devices and hard to replicate. It's not that Tesla has some kind of insidious DRM on their packs, it's just that there aren't any third party sources. There probably will be eventually, but there aren't yet. This is different from the world of piston engines, where a talented machine shop (drawing on a century of evolved conventions in engine and vehicle design) can make replacement parts for basically anything. [1] Potentially you're also complaining about price, because replacement batteries for a 2013 Model S are competing in a market with new parts for a car that retails for $140k. Replacing an EV battery is expensive for the same reason that EVs are expensive: the market wants more than the manufacturers can provide.
gameswithgo 5y ago
You can fix Teslas in third party shops.
cronix 5y ago
I imagine you also have no Apple products, because everything you listed there is identical if you swap out "tesla" for "apple."
- alphabettsy 5y ago
  True, but $50-100k for a Tesla is much different than $500-5k for anything Apple.

by cptaj 5y ago

dotancohen 5y ago

Does GM fix Corvettes that have had LS swaps? Does Ford fix Mustangs with third-party crate engines? This was a privately-imported US-spec Tesla with a non-OEM battery, being driven in a country in which almost all vehicles have special cold-weather packages. That is especially important on lithium batteries.

throwawayboise 5y ago
Most US dealerships will service any make or model of car. Most of them sell used cars of a variety of makes, and will gladly take the business to service them.
eloff 5y ago
I think the problem is not so much that they won't fix it, which is reasonable, but that they don't give you any alternatives.
- ajross 5y ago
  What "alternatives" would you to be given? It's not Tesla's job to fund outfits to make replacement batteries. If no one is making them then no one is making them.
  - eloff 5y ago
    To be clear, I mean you can't service your car at a third party location with Tesla.
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      You can get some things, but not everything, on Teslas serviced at third party locations. Are there any car companies that make every single part and diagnostic tool available to third parties? If so, which ones?
      - eloff 5y ago
        I'm not sure to be honest, it's a big issue these days that car companies lock third parties or of the computer systems and diagnostics. Right to repair seems fundamental to something as expensive and long lived as a car.
      - gamblor956 5y ago
        Are there any car companies that make every single part and diagnostic tool available to third parties? If so, which ones? Ford, Toyota, GM, etc. Pretty much all non-luxury brands make all part listings and parts available (either directly, or through a designated parts supplier). External companies actually make a lot of the parts for these automakers and you can buy directly from those suppliers if you know the part number, and aftermarket alternatives are available for almost every OEM part. It is possible to rebuild most Ford, Toyota, and GM vehicles with parts acquired through purchase. Some automakers make diagnostic tools available to anyone, but most limit the availability to certified mechanics. However, anyone can attempt to get certification.
        ajross 5y ago
        Per the question at hand: can you order a main battery pack for a Mach-E or Bolt? Genuine question. I'm pretty sure the answer is "no", but would be interested to find out.
        gamblor956 5y ago
        Yes, through a certified mechanic. Unlike Tesla, the other automakers make sure there is stock on hand for repairs before they release cars, which is part of why they appear to have reduced EV construction capabilities.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  Neither GM nor Ford give you any alternatives either. For the capitalists out there, "the market" should be giving you the alternatives. And the market delivers, at least in the market where this particular Tesla was originally sold: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7Q0nNkQTCo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7Q0nNkQTCo
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
alphabettsy 5y ago
Yea, actually they do. Assuming your swap doesn’t break the diagnostics I haven’t come across a dealership mechanic that would just refuse. You can even bring your Mustang to a GM dealer.
Ancapistani 5y ago
Yes, on both counts. My daily driver is a 2000 Jeep Wrangler. The rear axle was damaged when I bought it, and I replaced it with a Ford 8.8” axle assembly and fabricated my own adapters for it. A few weeks ago the parking brake stopped working correctly and I didn’t have time to fix it myself, so I dropped it off at a local dealership. They had no trouble repairing it, despite the fact that my Jeep came ORM with rear drum brakes and now has disc brakes on the rear.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  The Ford axle swap is great, but to am 8.8?!? I thought that the Ford 9" swap was popular enough to be a factory option already )). I'm actually surprised that they did the work, that might have been technician-dependent. I'm assuming that you've got Ford calipers and rotors? Did you bring to them the parts yourself?

josephcsible 5y ago

I agree being anti-repair is bad, but what car manufacturer isn't at least somewhat anti-repair? Or do you never plan to buy a car at all? Also, isn't Tesla significantly better than most manufacturers in this regard, in that everything but the high-voltage system has parts available for anyone to repair?

hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
While I agree with what you say, the reason I find the current situation completely wrong is that I remember it used to be very different. I remember the times when people were fixing their own cars. Granted, certain aspects became complex and should probably be fixed by authorized service for the sake of safety of passengers, but you have to admit things went way too far.
- notreallyserio 5y ago
  While it's possibly unfortunate that it's harder for me to work on my Honda, it's nice that it's so reliable I don't have to. From what I've heard Teslas are kind of the worst of both worlds.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Can you point to a statistic that says Honda is more reliable than Tesla?
    - lordloki 5y ago
      Consumer reports rankings: https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-lexus-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-lincoln-the-least/ https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-lexus-makes-th...
    - notreallyserio 5y ago
      Sure: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-reliability-model-s-3-x-y-consumer-reports-satisfaction-2021-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-reliability-model-s-3-... (links to the source, but it's behind a pay wall). There's a whole bunch of anecdotes on reddit that should give anyone pause: https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/q8ovdc/how_reliable_are_teslas_actually/ https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/q8ovdc/how_rel... Do you have statistics to the contrary? Even here on HN we have folks that defend Tesla in the face of serious problems like phantom braking while I've never heard of that happening with a Honda. Does it? (Someone here said it wasn't a problem because it "only" happened 7 or 8 times on a road trip, lol.)

Jansen312 5y ago

Many pro-green or geeks love Tesla yet don't realize it is overpriced and has huge delayed negative externalities like worn batteries and non-repairable. We already have better alternatives than Tesla for decades...called "Toyota". Cheaper to buy and maintain. Quality is superb. If I want to test drive Tesla, now we know where to rent it.

notreallyserio 5y ago
It be sweet if Toyota sold 100% electric vehicles with ~300 mile range. They wouldn't be able to keep them in stock.
- speedgoose 5y ago
  Yes but they did bet on Hydrogen and lost and were in denial for way too long. In my opinion, their best EV today is a rebadged Citroën van. Their Lexus ev is a shame.
Glawen 5y ago
What is the deal with Toyota? They never really sold a lot of cars here in Europe, but used beaten up Toyota are worth their weight of gold. It seems like a cult. Every manufacturer is capable of making quality cars, you just have to choose the correct model.
- adventured 5y ago
  Toyotas, if maintained reasonably, run very well for a very long time. Their Lexus brand also routinely comes in near the top in reliability. They've earned the enormous credibility they have on reliability. That's the reason their used vehicles are so desirable, you know the vehicle is likely to have a lot of life left in it if you take care of it (ie you'll more than get your money out of it).
  - Glawen 5y ago
    Thing is their diesel in Europe offerings were far from stellar reliability wise. I seriously looked into used gasoline Toyota but found out many engines had a gasket issue. In the end I bought a Renault, knowing that it might have issues but so far nothing happened.

ajross 5y ago

Your complaint here isn't about repair, it's that battery chemistry isn't a user-servicable component[1]. You have to buy a battery from someone. It turns out that packs are complicated devices and hard to replicate. It's not that Tesla has some kind of insidious DRM on their packs, it's just that there aren't any third party sources. There probably will be eventually, but there aren't yet. This is different from the world of piston engines, where a talented machine shop (drawing on a century of evolved conventions in engine and vehicle design) can make replacement parts for basically anything. [1] Potentially you're also complaining about price, because replacement batteries for a 2013 Model S are competing in a market with new parts for a car that retails for $140k. Replacing an EV battery is expensive for the same reason that EVs are expensive: the market wants more than the manufacturers can provide.

gameswithgo 5y ago

You can fix Teslas in third party shops.

cronix 5y ago

I imagine you also have no Apple products, because everything you listed there is identical if you swap out "tesla" for "apple."

alphabettsy 5y ago
True, but $50-100k for a Tesla is much different than $500-5k for anything Apple.